Lock Ladder Survey

[BEngo]

I keep getting waterscrape announcements of a lock ladder survey which seems to cover the whole system. Anyone else smell the potential for another bollards balls-up when they find that there are lots of sorts of ladders, fastenings, top handrail arrangements etc. etc.?

 

N

[Tuscan]

This is the latest health & safety issue where I imagine some lock ladders do not meet the latest guidelines for use as ladders ie having enough depth to get your foot in "safely". As well as the cost of the survey I guess ladders will need to be removed and stoppages planned for lock walls to be indented further via planning permission. Substantial cost I imagine out of the maintenance budget.

[matty40s]

They are replacing the whole lot with a new design that has internal heating elements so they dry instantly and also coated with an anti slime powder coating.

These have been designed as a direct response to the latest IWA membership survey which highlighted the fact that the biggest priority after getting rid of CCers was to keep their Versace suede locking mittens clean and dry.

[dor]

I believe some 400-odd locks are being "surveyed". The surveys are of course being carried out by contractors who are no doubt charging C&RT an arm, a leg, a torso and any other bits they can squeeze out of people who love spending other people's money.

[FadeToScarlet]

This is the latest health & safety issue where I imagine some lock ladders do not meet the latest guidelines for use as ladders ie having enough depth to get your foot in "safely". As well as the cost of the survey I guess ladders will need to be removed and stoppages planned for lock walls to be indented further via planning permission. Substantial cost I imagine out of the maintenance budget.

To defend CRT, it'll only really need to be done once, plus the canals are used by a very different demographic to when they were designed. Your stereotypical retired CCing couple have different needs to the younger, fitter and accustomed working boat crew they were sort of designed for- assuming they're original- or your younger, campaigning boater of the 60s and 70s.

[Mike Tee]

Maybe 'Stannah' could get involved, solar powered ladder lifts?

[dor]

Your stereotypical retired CCing couple have different needs to the younger, fitter and accustomed working boat crew they were sort of designed for- assuming they're original- or your younger, campaigning boater of the 60s and 70s.

But surely a couple does not need to use the lock ladders. I only use them when single-handing (and despite being a clumsy oaf, have never had a problem with them), and when single-handing, the lock ladders are the least of my worries.

Edited August 16, 2013 by dor

[koukouvagia]

In thirty years of boating I can honestly say I've never used a lock ladder and the older I get the less likely I am to do so.

The only time I'm aware of them is when the centre line get jammed under one of those ridiculous base plates which has come loose.

[FadeToScarlet]

But surely a couple does not need to use the lock ladders. I only use them when single-handing (and despite being a clumsy oaf, have never had a problem with them), and when single-handing, the lock ladders are the least of my worries.

we do when going uphill, as a way for the steerer to get off and open their share of the paddles.

[PiRSqwared]

we do when going uphill, as a way for the steerer to get off and open their share of the paddles.

Surely alternating would be equally equal

 

I must say that,single handing the top three atBuckby is difficult as it is now impossible to jump off the boat with a rope when going upward due to foot bridges and h&s attacks. Despite this, the ladders are in the middle of the locks, requiring roof walking, and seem to have been designed for very thin people

Edited August 16, 2013 by PiRSqwared

[tommytelford]

Instead of paying some know nothing surveyor £200 per hour why not get the people who use them to submit reports.

 

Anybody willing to participate could contact C&RT prior to a cruise to register then they could submit there report online and within a month or two most of the waterways would be covered.

 

Silly me that would save our money, won't ever happen

[Tacet]

To defend CRT, it'll only really need to be done once, plus the canals are used by a very different demographic to when they were designed. Your stereotypical retired CCing couple have different needs to the younger, fitter and accustomed working boat crew they were sort of designed for- assuming they're original- or your younger, campaigning boater of the 60s and 70s.

In my (possibly faulty) recollection, widespread/universal ladders is a relatively new phenomenon partly introduced in response to drownings by unfortunates who, have fallen or jumped-in, could not get out.

[FadeToScarlet]

Surely alternating would be equally equal

 

Not so much equality as efficiency- once the boat is happily in, the steerer goes up the ladder to open the paddles on that side, whilst the lock wheeler crosses the bottom gates once they've closed the one that was open for the boat and goes to open the other paddles, then heads off to set the next lock if in a flight.

 

This is of course assuming it's a wide lock with only us in it.

 

Narrow locks going uphill is similar, once the boat's in and ticking over against the cill or gate, the steerer goes up to deal with whatever paddles need doing whilst the lock worker heads off to set the next.

[David Mack]

To defend CRT, it'll only really need to be done once, plus the canals are used by a very different demographic to when they were designed. Your stereotypical retired CCing couple have different needs to the younger, fitter and accustomed working boat crew they were sort of designed for- assuming they're original- or your younger, campaigning boater of the 60s and 70s.

Lock ladders weren't designed for working boat crew. They were installed in the 70s - 80s as safety ladders so that anyone who fell into an empty lock with the bottom gates closed could climb out. This more or less coincided with the change in practice from leaving gates open to closing them on leaving a lock.

[Jigsawged]

But surely a couple does not need to use the lock ladders. I only use them when single-handing (and despite being a clumsy oaf, have never had a problem with them), and when single-handing, the lock ladders are the least of my worries.

That may not be the case for everyone. Should someone take a nasty tumble and the lock ladders were not up to spec, many would be suing the pants off CART leaving even less funding for essentials.

 

As for paying contractors to carry out surveys, how about CART asking forum members to conduct a survey (once peace has broken out) in a prescribed format with photographs of as many locks on the system that members could access? No cost involved. I offer this as an example of how with a better working relationship* with the Trust, everyone could benefit.

 

*refer to the CART don't want to talk to us thread.

Edited to say I didn't see TommyTelfords post.

Edited August 16, 2013 by Jigsawged

[alan_fincher]

To defend CRT, it'll only really need to be done once, plus the canals are used by a very different demographic to when they were designed. Your stereotypical retired CCing couple have different needs to the younger, fitter and accustomed working boat crew they were sort of designed for- assuming they're original- or your younger, campaigning boater of the 60s and 70s.

 

They are not original, in the vast majority of cases.

 

Generally they simply didn't exist in the 1960s.

 

They are a new feature, but I don't know the exact period that many of them got introduced, as I wasn't actively involved with canals at that time. No earlier than late 1970s I'm guessing.

[Theo]

In thirty years of boating I can honestly say I've never used a lock ladder and the older I get the less likely I am to do so.

The only time I'm aware of them is when the centre line get jammed under one of those ridiculous base plates which has come loose.

I would tend to agree but they are quite useful it you happen to fall in.

 

N

 

They are not original, in the vast majority of cases.

 

Generally they simply didn't exist in the 1960s.

 

They are a new feature, but I don't know the exact period that many of them got introduced, as I wasn't actively involved with canals at that time. No earlier than late 1970s I'm guessing.

When I started boating (1977) they were competely absent from narrow locks but fitted to all the wide locks AFAICR.

 

Nick

[Allan(nb Albert)]

 

They are not original, in the vast majority of cases.

 

Generally they simply didn't exist in the 1960s.

 

They are a new feature, but I don't know the exact period that many of them got introduced, as I wasn't actively involved with canals at that time. No earlier than late 1970s I'm guessing.

For what its worth, I was told that this is fallout from the death of Robert Fidoe where BW did not act on a staff report suggesting that some of its lock crossings were unsafe.

 

At the moment CaRT face criminal prosecution over the Fidoe death but are attempting to convince HSE that this would not be in the public interest.

 

I am told that inspection reports were found during HSE investigation which have suggested that some lock ladders (which are primarily for self rescue rather than boater aids) have been reported as unsafe due to insufficient toe hold and/or not extending far enough below the surface.

 

Hence the inspections and what appears to some to be overkill.

 

 

 

[Theo]

For what its worth, I was told that this is fallout from the death of Robert Fidoe where BW did not act on a staff report suggesting that some of its lock crossings were unsafe.

 

At the moment CaRT face criminal prosecution over the Fidoe death but are attempting to convince HSE that this would not be in the public interest.

 

I am told that inspection reports were found during HSE investigation which have suggested that some lock ladders (which are primarily for self rescue rather than boater aids) have been reported as unsafe due to insufficient toe hold and/or not extending far enough below the surface.

 

Hence the inspections and what appears to some to be overkill.

 

 

Like what I said but only better!

 

N

[alan_fincher]

I would tend to agree but they are quite useful it you happen to fall in.

 

N

When I started boating (1977) they were competely absent from narrow locks but fitted to all the wide locks AFAICR.

 

Nick

I don't think any of my 1970s pictures show them, including those of wide Grand Union locks, but most oof the pictures are probably from the early to mid 1970s. I sold my first boat in 1978, and think I would probably remember an exercise to start fitting them before that date. I could be wrong though, ans some may have indeed been fitted in the late 1970s.

 

Somewhere I still have a John Gagg article that details ways of getting off your boat in locks if single handing, that both included climbing up the gates themselves, if possible, and also use of a lightweight portable ladder, but noting that in broad locks you had to ascend it quickly, before the boat managed to drift to far from the side it was on. I kid you not!

[PiRSqwared]

I don't think any of my 1970s pictures show them, including those of wide Grand Union locks, but most oof the pictures are probably from the early to mid 1970s. I sold my first boat in 1978, and think I would probably remember an exercise to start fitting them before that date. I could be wrong though, ans some may have indeed been fitted in the late 1970s.

 

Somewhere I still have a John Gagg article that details ways of getting off your boat in locks if single handing, that both included climbing up the gates themselves, if possible, and also use of a lightweight portable ladder, but noting that in broad locks you had to ascend it quickly, before the boat managed to drift to far from the side it was on. I kid you not!

Of course on the GU wide locks it is possible to step off the boat with a rope and go up the steps when ascending, and drag the boat out and walk down the steps to board when descending. Except on a few like Stoke Bruerne top and the top three at Buckby that have been health and safetied.

[magpie patrick]

I don't think any of my 1970s pictures show them, including those of wide Grand Union locks, but most oof the pictures are probably from the early to mid 1970s. I sold my first boat in 1978, and think I would probably remember an exercise to start fitting them before that date. I could be wrong though, ans some may have indeed been fitted in the late 1970s.

 

Somewhere I still have a John Gagg article that details ways of getting off your boat in locks if single handing, that both included climbing up the gates themselves, if possible, and also use of a lightweight portable ladder, but noting that in broad locks you had to ascend it quickly, before the boat managed to drift to far from the side it was on. I kid you not!

I also recall Mr Gagg saying he got caught out once when the lock keeper raised the paddles whilst he was half way up his ladder!

 

They appeared on the Monmouth and Brecon between 1977 and 1985, as I went on our car top dinghy through Llangynidr locks in those years. As the M&B isn't the sort of canal where BW got excited about such things, that seems a reasonable proxy for when they were generally fitted.

 

Whilst I'm cynical of overkill, I can see that ladders, if fitted at all, must be safe to use. I just hope any programme of improvements is based on common sense rather than carte blanche replacing the lot

 

BTW there are "lock ladders" on the Ashton Canal that are made from bricks and date from the late 19th century if not earlier

[Tacet]

I don't think any of my 1970s pictures show them, including those of wide Grand Union locks, but most of the pictures are probably from the early to mid 1970s. I sold my first boat in 1978, and think I would probably remember an exercise to start fitting them before that date. I could be wrong though, ans some may have indeed been fitted in the late 1970s.

 

 

Late 70's or early 80's seems about right, to my memory. As lock gates were customarily left open, the presence (or not) of a ladder was more important as charging into a lock to find there was no way ready way for a crew member to ascend, was less than cool.

[Ian Mac]

Lock Ladders were installed after an unfortunate death of a child where another member of the public was present but could not gain accces to said child. The Coroner made a report and then the dreaded H&S got involved and so we have Safety ladders installed at all locks. This is in an attempt to avoid large fees in litigation. Please remember that like a lot of large organisations, C&RT self insure, so any claim comes directly out of your licence money and anything that may have been spent on dredging

The ladders are not operational ladders, they are purely installed for safety reasons. However because I would suggest people are now using them for operational reasons, mainly single handing, but also just general accessing of boats, etc. C&RT are now, because of the way H&S works ensuring that they are fit for purpose, as their usage has changed. Again this will be, I suggest, so that some nastie boater doesn't raid the dredging fund by suing the board because he has slipped on a lock ladder, because if it being poorly installed/fitted. Slipping off it because it is wet when a boater uses it is the boaters responsibility in law, the boater should make sure it is fit for use before he mounts it.

Historically, for operational purposes, canal such as the Rochdale and the L&L had ladder handles fitted to the bottom gates so that the boatmen could easily climb the gates, these have now all been removed, (well actually not replaced when the new gates were fitted.) They were definitely a young mans aid, but having said that, I did watch Harold the then 77 yrs old lock keeper, wipe up them, many years ago. There are also Step bricks built into all the Ashton Locks a Dave Mack says but I suspect these were for saftey rather than operation, as there position varies lock to lock. Another example of boatman steps are those cut into the steel on the gates at Chester Northgate locks.

[Dr Bradley]

There have been times when I climbed gates, in particular on the Huddersfield and the Beeston Iron Lock. If your reasonably agile it's not that difficult. I have found a very few ladders hat feel unsafe, mostly due to being loose. Never had a problem with insufficient toe holds. (I am an ex climber, that may hep),