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CRT No Longer Wish To Meet With Boaters


cotswoldsman

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So... NABO is rather undemocratic, RBOA is renowned for tending to the conservative at the expense of those down at heel, and the IWA needs no explaining after the CRT elections.

 

A fourth organisation would appear to be called for to unite the disgruntled masses. It would seem that that; and possibly a fifth too, is what might be evolving... After the next CRT council election; when IWA would frankly be insane to try what they tried the last time; maybe there will be an organisation who could step to the table and adequately represent the unaligned masses.

 

Good oh!

 

All we need is those unaligned masses willing to step up.

We certainly need an organisation that the majority of boaters will support, and will work constructively with CRT. I think it needs to drive major fundraising but others think that pushing for change in CRT is all that is needed. Every boater needs to recognise that CRT has to look after far more than the interests of boaters. It is unlikely that any government will change this in the foreseeable future.

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We certainly need an organisation that the majority of boaters will support, and will work constructively with CRT. I think it needs to drive major fundraising but others think that pushing for change in CRT is all that is needed. Every boater needs to recognise that CRT has to look after far more than the interests of boaters. It is unlikely that any government will change this in the foreseeable future.

 

By looking after the interests of boaters, they will be looking after the interests of other uses. It would be one sorry worthless dumping hole without boaters. The kind of place I knew in the fifties. The reputation of which lives on. The image of a dirty place is prevalent today. How much garbage is thrown into the canal. It's the next best option to the municipal dump. That's another reality of public awareness.

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What a load of carp and ill informed rubbish :-)

The cats have eaten the carp?

 

icecream.gif

We certainly need an organisation that the majority of boaters will support, and will work constructively with CRT. I think it needs to drive major fundraising but others think that pushing for change in CRT is all that is needed. Every boater needs to recognise that CRT has to look after far more than the interests of boaters. It is unlikely that any government will change this in the foreseeable future.

What depresses me about this is that AIUI that's exactly why NABO formed when IWA made it clear they weren't just interested in boaters. Loads of boaters left IWA and created NABO. But now NABO is seen as ineffective or undemocratic or something. If everyone expressing an interest on here joined NABO, wouldn't we have control?

 

Oh yeah, of course we'd have to agree what we wanted to do next...

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The cats have eaten the carp?

 

icecream.gif

What depresses me about this is that AIUI that's exactly why NABO formed when IWA made it clear they weren't just interested in boaters. Loads of boaters left IWA and created NABO. But now NABO is seen as ineffective or undemocratic or something. If everyone expressing an interest on here joined NABO, wouldn't we have control?

 

Oh yeah, of course we'd have to agree what we wanted to do next...

 

Interesting, but would they be willing to pay the annual membership fee, recently increased by an eye watering amount?.

 

No doubt matters were not improved by Jenlyn's online comments about a regional waterways manager. The whole situation became difficult when the 'tail started trying to wag the dog'.

 

Cotswoldman must be thanked for his considerable efforts, really appreciated, but I do think the mooring problems are much more acute in the South East.

 

Leo.

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Interesting, but would they be willing to pay the annual membership fee, recently increased by an eye watering amount?.

 

No doubt matters were not improved by Jenlyn's online comments about a regional waterways manager. The whole situation became difficult when the 'tail started trying to wag the dog'.

 

Cotswoldman must be thanked for his considerable efforts, really appreciated, but I do think the mooring problems are much more acute in the South East.

 

Leo.

And they are about to get very acute. My raising concerns about that waterways manager evolved from the eradication of 14 day moorings. CRT have just done a very good bit of pr by distracting everyone away from the bigger picture. You seem to have bought into it quite nicely!
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Interesting, but would they be willing to pay the annual membership fee, recently increased by an eye watering amount?.

 

No doubt matters were not improved by Jenlyn's online comments about a regional waterways manager. The whole situation became difficult when the 'tail started trying to wag the dog'.

 

Cotswoldman must be thanked for his considerable efforts, really appreciated, but I do think the mooring problems are much more acute in the South East.

 

Leo.

The reason the membership fee was increased by that amount was because a) it hadn't been increased ever since I can remember B) it creates so much work for the membership secretary and treasurer when it is increased. In fact for years the treasurer threatened to resign if it was increased.

One reason it needed increasing was the cost of legal opinion to be able to fight cart on your behalf.

Sorry cant get rid of the unintentional smiley

Edited by sueb
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The reason the membership fee was increased by that amount was because a) it hadn't been increased ever since I can remember cool.png it creates so much work for the membership secretary and treasurer when it is increased. In fact for years the treasurer threatened to resign if it was increased.

One reason it needed increasing was the cost of legal opinion to be able to fight cart on your behalf.

Sorry cant get rid of the unintentional smiley

Annoying smiley isn't it. every time we print a) bee) it pops up instead of the bfrusty.gif - use roman numerals.

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Interesting, but would they be willing to pay the annual membership fee, recently increased by an eye watering amount?.

 

No doubt matters were not improved by Jenlyn's online comments about a regional waterways manager. The whole situation became difficult when the 'tail started trying to wag the dog'.

 

Cotswoldman must be thanked for his considerable efforts, really appreciated, but I do think the mooring problems are much more acute in the South East.

 

Leo.

Perhaps one other thing I will point out here, I have the emails from vince too, they dont mention me. I also note, sallycrt made two statements on here, again I dont see any reference to myself. With those facts, I will thank you to keep your accusations which are seemingly unfounded, to yourself!
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I thought the general consensus was talk to CRT as what needed to be done.

 

They don't seem obliged to. Even though there has been alot of critisism of 'boaters' being self-centred, I get the feeling it is because the initial hope of dialogue with CRT has been tarnished by tokenism.

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They don't seem obliged to. Even though there has been alot of critisism of 'boaters' being self-centred, I get the feeling it is because the initial hope of dialogue with CRT has been tarnished by tokenism.

 

And it is incumbent that CaRT now advise what changes they plan re-consultation/liaison in lieu of the previous lacking channels

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Interesting, but would they be willing to pay the annual membership fee, recently increased by an eye watering amount?.

 

No doubt matters were not improved by Jenlyn's online comments about a regional waterways manager. The whole situation became difficult when the 'tail started trying to wag the dog'.

 

Cotswoldman must be thanked for his considerable efforts, really appreciated, but I do think the mooring problems are much more acute in the South East.

 

Leo.

 

You are right NABO annual membership was recently increase to £25 a year or about a pint every 6 weeks in my local. I recently became more active in NABO primarily as a result of the SE VIsitor Mooring consultation and my subsequent concerns that CRT would appear to be intending to act beyond what I understood to be their legal powers. I also felt that the IWA was dictating policy through IWA trustees and there wasa need for balance and to hold CRT to account on occasions.

 

I am very much for creating and pursuing a dialog with CRT around many issues that boaters have around navigation, dredging, maintenance, over staying and hopefully we are trying to do this slowly.

 

I am sure NABO would very much welcome existing or new members to get actively involved with engaging with CRT in your area or centrally and please PM if you would.

 

I think the work that John (and others) has led engaging with CRT as an individual has been positive if temporarily frustrating as it has made CRT realise that they should not ignore the grass roots boaters needs. He has perhaps been able to get this accross better than the associations. If we are stuck with user groups where questions are submitted in advance and answers pre prepared with little free dialogue then it's a big step backward. The challenge for CRT is perhaps to manage the communication channels between itself and individuals and yes boaters associations to ensure a wide variety of voices are heard and considered before some policy decisions are made.

 

Boaters meetings, forums like this that CRT reads, and boaters associations should all be able to co-exist coming together when then is agreement which I suspect there is on many areas. Fundamentally we should want CRT to succeed in maintaining and improving the canal system.

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Until I hear from CRT that they no longer wish to come to to the social I am working on the basis that it is still happening.

The Floating Market will definitely happen as that is something completely separate, it was part of a process of bringing some new life to the centre of Birmingham and is supported 100% by Birmingham City Council and Brindleyplace. They have already asked for another one next year and also if it would be possible to do one to coincide with the Christmas Market. I think that unlike CRT they are serious about getting boater involved in Birmingham. I must add that for the floating market we have received a lot of help from West Midland Waterways Partnership and Dean Davies

 

I think what he is saying is we can now justify not doing things such as maintaining the towpath for boaters, that quote comes from an email exchange concerning the overgrowth of towpaths and tree problem for boaters.

 

 

It is nice that Birmingham city council are once again interested in the canal after dropping the Christmas parade some years ago in favour of a firework display . A positive at least. It is hard to see how an organisation can ignore a group who represent 30% of there income who doublely make up a substantial amount of the towpath visitors they consider of great importance . Were these meeting so bruising to attend that they feel it had to be brought to an end or was it just they can no longer be bothered.

 

Edited to separate quote from my rubbish comment

Edited by greywolf
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I think the problem might be that in all situations in life not just Cart v boaters, is that when personalities are involved in discussions the results can be very varied.

 

Sally Ash for example might give an opinion or advice on something in a face to face encounter, but is that her opinion or the opinion of Cart?

Then there is the problem of interpretation of what was said.

This can be further muddied by the re telling of what she said...chinese whispers and all that!

 

I would like to think we could meet the human face of Cart and be able to discuss the issues of the day in a reasonable and productive manner, but it can take only one bad experience of such things for any organisation to withdraw behind their office doors.

 

I personally can feel change is in the air, there are so many issues that need to be addressed, and the existing organisations are not representing the concerns that are growing apace.

 

I only hope that whatever campaigning group evolves from this process is one that can communicate effectively with Cart and build a mutually respectful relationship.

 

The great opportunity that presents itself at the moment needs to be built on, but must be got right first time. A difficult one!

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Having read the first 12 pages of this topic I decided not to participate, instead I emailed Richard Parry the new CEO of CRT despite the fact tat he was on annual leave and it was a week end he replied within 24 hours. In that response he said amongst other things,

 

"To reassure you, I’m personally committed to active engagement with boaters (and others); an inclusive approach, reaching out to involve all those who use and/or enjoy our waterways is, I believe, essential for the Trust to fulfil its mission"

 

So much of what has been posted is inaccurate, people making 2+2 equal 5, or just plain mischievous. I then continued to read the next 13 pages here we entered the realms of fairy tales, people stating from god knows where their version of CRT's accounts. Now if you want the truth get a copy of CRT's Trustees' Report and Accounts for the period ending 31st March. Now I will be the first to admit these are complicated since they cover a 9 month period from July 2012 when CRT accepted the transfer but the figures are different from those being quoted here. So here are the facts.

 

Income

 

Government Grant. £29.3m

Boat licences/moorings. £26.4m

Marinas. £5.2m

Utilities. £17.4m

Investment Income. £31.1m

Third Party. £10.4m

Other income. £2.3m

 

 

Total Income. £122.1m

 

 

Expenditure

Maintenance. £31.7m

Vegetation, waste. £10.1m

dredging £3.3m

Operation teams. £6.9m

Restoration. £5.9m

Facilities etc. £7.8m

 

The full 12 months figures would show income totally £154m in 2012/13 increasing to £156m in 2013/14 and to £176m in 2015/16 when the government grant increases by £10m.

 

If you want to know more read the report, or alternatively you can believe the inaccurate rubbish spouted by some people.

 

What would be better is for boaters to actively participate by volunteering, litter clearing, nor dumping large bits of you boat on rubbish collection points and vegetation control are three areas where boaters could make a real difference and save CRT tens of thousands of pounds. So how about it?

 

Well as Forrest Gump would say that's all I have to say on that!

  • Greenie 2
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What would be better is for boaters to actively participate by volunteering, litter clearing, nor dumping large bits of you boat on rubbish collection points and vegetation control are three areas where boaters could make a real difference and save CRT tens of thousands of pounds. So how about it?

Basically I would agree with most of what you say. However to look at the part I have quoted. To me volunteering is a little like the friends v members debate. For me (and I know this is purely personal) I would give more time/effort and probably money to something I feel I "belong to" rather than just any old organisation I use. An example being the volunteering I have done with the RSPB of which I am a member.

 

I am alsonot too keen on volunteering for an organisation which I feel isn't providing the service that I want/need, so losing the chance to talk directly to CRT does rather colour my view. I may find all my volunteering benefits (insert the group of choice other than boaters).

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Wow great stuff Narrow Minded! You went straight to the top!!!

 

Very interesting financial information and I also think your suggestions for ways of being involved in the future are very important too.

 

Forrest Gump said very wise things!

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Over three million quid a year spent on dredging??? They must intenseively dredge parts of the system which I never visit.

 

At first sight the figures appeared to show that Cart made a big profit. But wait: there is one essential item missing from their Expenditure column - unless they don't pay any of their employees: wages and salaries. (I assume these not to be the same as "Operation teams" which I take to refer to sub-contractors working on specific bits of canal.

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Gosh, where to start with all these comments! On boaters being marginalised, what I meant was that we don't have a 'marginalise the boaters' agenda, but if that's how lots of you feel, then obviously we've got to do something to change that feeling. Making changes to the existing user group format, including more voices, different agenda, more/different Trust representatives taking part and possibly changing the name would seem to us the logical and most efficient approach. It's not clear to me how introducing yet another separate suite of meetings would be better but if I've missed something, do tell me. What else should we be doing to make boaters happier and more trusting of us without prejudicing our other funding streams?.

 

'Where do we see boaters in the bigger scheme of things?' was another question someone asked. Answer is 'at the very heart of what we do'. Navigation and boaters after all constitute our 'usp'.

First off it's good to see you posting here and hope you're not upset or put off by all the heated views and opinions. help.gif

 

I've had a look at the CaRT document Shaping our Future - strategic priorites it's not bad but it does look like it could do with being a bit more oriented to the boater community and their needs, with more detail in that area, considering they provide 35% of income.

 

Also it may be that there needs to be clearer communication from CaRT about how their views, plans, actions and views then fulfill these priorites.

 

Seems to me the lack of detail means that spending on 'green' projects may be taking priority over upkeep and improvements to facilities for boaters, also that some sections of the boater community are being favoured over others with regard to moorings for example.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited by smileypete
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Fascinating thread.

 

The way I see it: until (and it may never happen) C&RT becomes a membership-run organisation (and one where each boat licence = membership) then there needs to be a "users' association" (call it what you like) with a defined membership (ie not an open membership like an internet forum, but one that has a clear list of members, each signed up on a renewing annual basis, with proper contact details, etc, and membership voting rights etc) that can directly interact with C&RT. This forum can act like the seed for this new organisation - I'm sure many hundreds of members could be signed up within weeks just from this forum's membership... but of course membership should be open to all users who share the organisation's aims, including those who are 'offline'! Membership would have to be free to get the numbers, but with active volunteers and some voluntary donations, I'm sure it could work.

Edited by Proud Salopian
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