Stoke Bruerne Visitor Moorings

[cotswoldsman]

So the second week of August on a Saturday night enough space for 7 boats!!

I have now read the T&C for Stoke Bruerne and was interested in this piece on the £25 per day charge "This charge reflects our costs of

keeping the visitor moorings available." So in Gloucester Dock they can manage them for £5 per day and in Llangollen for £10 including Electric Hook up!!!

[alan_fincher]

 

 

I have now read the T&C for Stoke Bruerne and was interested in this piece on the £25 per day charge "This charge reflects our costs of

keeping the visitor moorings available."

 

 

Classic change of direction there, to try and actually legitimise it!

 

At no point during the discussions did they ever suggest that was the reason for setting it at £25.

 

It was suggested it was at a level that would be enough to deter most from overstaying, but I guess they have decided that after all sounds too much like a penalty charge or fine, and are now trying to dress it up in a way that they think might better survive a legal challenge.

 

It doesn't get any better, does it?

 

 

[cotswoldsman]

 

Classic change of direction there, to try and actually legitimise it!

 

At no point during the discussions did they ever suggest that was the reason for setting it at £25.

 

It was suggested it was at a level that would be enough to deter most from overstaying, but I guess they have decided that after all sounds too much like a penalty charge or fine, and are now trying to dress it up in a way that they think might better survive a legal challenge.

 

It doesn't get any better, does it?

 

 

Well it really does not make sense!! one visitor mooring costs just over £9,000 per year to keep it available no wonder there is no money left for Tree Cutting or Dredging. Maybe the answer is to get rid of all visitor moorings and spend the money on maintenance.

[Leo No2]

So the second week of August on a Saturday night enough space for 7 boats!!

I have now read the T&C for Stoke Bruerne and was interested in this piece on the £25 per day charge "This charge reflects our costs of

keeping the visitor moorings available." So in Gloucester Dock they can manage them for £5 per day and in Llangollen for £10 including Electric Hook up!!!

It is interesting it is not a fine. What is says to me is you can stay (up to the maximum) as long as you can pay. That doesn't, to my mind, release moorings for newcomers; it just means you can stay (up to the maximum) as long as you can pay. That just doesn't seem right when there are a finite number of moorings in these 'honey pot' sites. I'd much rather see the 48 hour limit managed properly without any money changing hands - I suspect though the £25 charge is seen, in business terms, as new revenue stream and I'd be very surprised if there is not an amount in the business plan/budget showing what income CRT expect from the £25 charges. Edited August 11, 2013 by Leo No2

[Tuscan]

So the second week of August on a Saturday night enough space for 7 boats!!

I have now read the T&C for Stoke Bruerne and was interested in this piece on the £25 per day charge "This charge reflects our costs of

keeping the visitor moorings available." So in Gloucester Dock they can manage them for £5 per day and in Llangollen for £10 including Electric Hook up!!!

I was told by CRT that this is the actual administrative cost of administering the £25 charge but that they were unable to break this down. Given that the administrative cost of keeping a mooring available at a CRT owned marina with security and services if you book in for a short term stay is likely to be £10-12 a day I suggest they need to review their administrative process as they would appear to be seriously inefficient !!

 

The real reason of course is that lawyers have advised that they can only charge actual costs with no penalty element as they do not have the power to fine. Many excessive car parking charges at service stations for example have been successfully challenged by motorists offering to pay say £10 as a truer reflection of a charge rather than a £25 or £50 charge for overstaying. Such action IMO may succeed here.

[cotswoldsman]

It is interesting it is not a fine. What is says to me is you can stay (up to the maximum) as long as you can pay. That doesn't, to my mind, release moorings for newcomers; it just means you can stay (up to the maximum) as long as you can pay. That just doesn't seem right when there are a finite number of moorings in these 'honey pot' sites. I'd much rather see the 48 hour limit managed properly without any money changing hands - I suspect though the £25 charge is seen, in business terms, as new revenue stream and I'd be very surprised if there is not an amount in the business plan/budget showing what income CRT expect from the £25 charges.

This raises the question I asked CRT many moons ago "when is a 24/48/7d mooring not a restricted mooring?" they looked at me blankly and I said "when you can pay to stay longer" Now my argument is that I pay with my licence to stay in one place for 14 days unless the mooring says otherwise, surely if you have the option to pay to stay longer it is no longer a restricted mooring?

[Tuscan]

It is interesting it is not a fine. What is says to me is you can stay (up to the maximum) as long as you can pay. That doesn't, to my mind, release moorings for newcomers; it just means you can stay (up to the maximum) as long as you can pay. That just doesn't seem right when there are a finite number of moorings in these 'honey pot' sites. I'd much rather see the 48 hour limit managed properly without any money changing hands - I suspect though the £25 charge is seen, in business terms, as new revenue stream and I'd be very surprised if there is not an amount in the business plan/budget showing what income CRT expect from the £25 charges.

 

Interesting then that there is no mechanism to pre book a stay, or pay by phone should you wish to stay , charging boaters for something you actually don't want them to do seems a bit back to front in my view.

[cotswoldsman]

Interesting then that there is no mechanism to pre book a stay, or pay by phone should you wish to stay , charging boaters for something you actually don't want them to do seems a bit back to front in my view.

To quote John Dodwell "I am hoping we do not have to collect any £25 mooring fees"

[Leo No2]

I am trying to understand their business plan. If, over a weekend, no one has overstayed then they don't levy a charge. However they still have their fixed costs (the CRT Officer and any other fixed costs) which must be borne by the licence fee. If however they do find someone who has overstayed a day (because they arrived on the Thursday) they levy a fee of say £25. The only variable in levying the fee is the paperwork and paying. I'd be very surprised if the cost of the paperwork and paying is £25 or anywhere near it. I think they need to be able to justify their proposed charges. If it were a fine, to stop you doing it again, then I suppose £25 is a deterrent.

 

What the fee doesn't seem to address is if the moorings are full that it releases a space - all it does is put £25 into CRT coffers and takes no account of either releasing a space or being pragmatic and waiving the fee because the moorings, as they are now, are not full.

[Tuscan]

To quote John Dodwell "I am hoping we do not have to collect any £25 mooring fees"

 

I was told this at a first glance it seems sensible. But what type of business actually fixes a charge hoping that customers will not pay it , car manufacturers , tesco's of course not.

 

However what type of business raises a penalty fine far higher than the actual cost hoping to deter overstaying . Hmm difficult to argue its not a fine me thinks. Is this really what boaters want the new charity to be doing it doesn't encourage many I talk to to "want to be a friend" .

 

There are always too sides I guess if you are paying top dollar for nearby LTM you don't want "boats overstaying on the best moorings as if they owned the place" i don't think anybody denies that in the past boats have overstayed whether on towpath or visitor mooring but surely this is more about effecient patrolling rather than littering the towpath with leaflets and volunteers recording "vital" information.

[jenlyn]

The maths just do not add up. I cannot see that CRT can even make enough from this to cover admin costs. The side effect I guess will be boats avoiding the areas, thus killing off any local business that may have benefited from visiting boats.

If jeff whyatt has done the financial calculations, it could be a huge error. Jeff has stated in the past, "each lock uses 50, 000 gallons of water, therefore, a boat coming down through 17 locks will use 850, 000 gallons of water". (shakes head in despair)

[Leo No2]

Just done my mini survey again (rather than in the morning).

 

Room for 4 x 70', 2 x 60' and a 30' between the Museum Green and the tunnel mouth.

 

There's no doubt in my mind that there's plenty of room at Stoke Bruerne with the current restrictions (nothing apparent when coming from the north and 48 hours from the south).

 

Caveats are that there are no trading boats (Blisworth Festival second day today) but there are three or four boats that have been there for more than 48 hours but even with that there's plenty of room.

 

Do hope this helps with any discussions that others may have with CRT.

[jenlyn]

Just done my mini survey again (rather than in the morning).

Room for 4 x 70', 2 x 60' and a 30' between the Museum Green and the tunnel mouth.

There's no doubt in my mind that there's plenty of room at Stoke Bruerne with the current restrictions (nothing apparent when coming from the north and 48 hours from the south).

Caveats are that there are no trading boats (Blisworth Festival second day today) but there are three or four boats that have been there for more than 48 hours but even with that there's plenty of room.

Do hope this helps with any discussions that others may have with CRT.

Definitely, thankyou. It's very much appreciated.

[RLWP]

Kathryn, thank you for doing this. Real world data is what is needed in this process

 

Shame that CRT didn't gather any themselves

 

Richard

[Leo No2]

Thanks guys - it's really easy for me to do. I would say that a week's worth of data from a peak month should be sufficient so I'll keep posting on here until we have seven days available. I won't be able to do the few days around (and including) the Bank Holiday which may be the peak of the peak - off back down to the Wey to give the boat a bit of exercise with Byfleet Boat Club but I think a week of 'real' data should give those of you in communication with CRT some basis in fact as to what is actually happening on the ground.

Edited August 12, 2013 by Leo No2

[Tuscan]

Keep it up , please . This just shows what many of us have been saying.

[paddy r]

yes please keep it up,it all helps.

[cheshire~rose]

Brilliant job!

 

It is great when someone "one the spot" is able to give a clear and precise snapshot of what the situation is in the area.

 

(Lovely to get a chance to meet you at Blisworth Kathryn)

[Leo No2]

All that's been provided so far is raw data - I think it's more important to turn that data into information so here's my starter for 10 - comments please.

Assumptions I have made is that the available mooring between the Museum Green and tunnel mouth is about 3,000' - not my strong subject so if you think it is more or less please shout. The graph shows the % full - so the number of boats times their length as a % of 3,000. Anyway let me know what you think - is it easy to understand? I will retain all the raw data.

ETA: The graph will look a bit odd until there is a bit more data - we could then put in a line of best fit (AKA a trend line).

Removed graph - 3,000' was wrong - see post below

Edited August 12, 2013 by Leo No2

[DaveP]

 

So the second week of August on a Saturday night enough space for 7 boats!!

I have now read the T&C for Stoke Bruerne and was interested in this piece on the £25 per day charge "This charge reflects our costs of

keeping the visitor moorings available." So in Gloucester Dock they can manage them for £5 per day and in Llangollen for £10 including Electric Hook up!!!

 

 

The Llangollen moorings are £6/nt including electric (and water taps on each bollard).

[Jerra]

Assumptions I have made is that the available mooring between the Museum Green and tunnel mouth is about 3,000' - not my strong subject so if you think it is more or less please shout.

I am not familiar with the area but having attempted to measure from the tunnel to the lock using one of these measure your walk type sites that distance seems to be in the region of 2000 - 2100 feet.

 

Hope this helps.

 

EDIT: To remove the graph.

Edited August 12, 2013 by Jerra

[Leo No2]

I am not familiar with the area but having attempted to measure from the tunnel to the lock using one of these measure your walk type sites that distance seems to be in the region of 2000 - 2100 feet.

 

Hope this helps.

 

EDIT: To remove the graph.

 

Got the OS Map out - reckon on 1,500' available mooring space - my mistake originally. Graph redone. Comments please.

 

Edited - Removed graph see below

Edited August 12, 2013 by Leo No2

[koukouvagia]

I am not familiar with the area but having attempted to measure from the tunnel to the lock using one of these measure your walk type sites that distance seems to be in the region of 2000 - 2100 feet.

 

 

I still think this is generous. By the time you've removed the winding hole, the disabled mooring and the narrows, I reckon it's more like 1200'.

 

Very useful, Kathryn. I like your reports on how many boats of various lengths can be accommodated. Very often, it's inevitable that unconnected smaller spaces mean that a full length boat can't fit in.

 

Frankly if there's no room at Stoke Bruerne, we just go on a bit.

 

I know it may be heresy to say, but I've never felt SB to be the best place to stop. There's no shop, no chandlery and it's a trek to the nearest station. Admittedly the indian restaurant is pretty good. It seems to be more of a honeypot site for gongoozlers than for boaters.

[Ray]

I was involved with the move of the local charity boat last week. We arrived at the bottom of Stoke Bruerne on Monday afternoon to take the last available 48hr mooring space. There would have been more space had not the CRT workboats been occupying just under half of the 48hr mooring space. We had intended to moor on the longer term mooring a little further back but they were full.

 

We moved on Thursday morning - I know, we overstayed, but there was nowhere else to moor in the immediate vicinity and one of the crew (me) was unable to walk long distances due to an on-going leg injury. The work boats were still there and the 14 day moorings were still full.

 

What is the cost of administering the proposals? New signage, training and running costs of volunteer rangers - uniform and the like?

 

If somewhere is being advertised as being 48hr (or whatever) mooring then that is what it has to be. Just because it suits CRT to not patrol at (exactly) the same time every day is not our fault. Will I be penalised if I'm spotted by both Monday's patrol at 3pm and Wednesday's at 11am or do I get grace until Thursday - at whatever time it happens?

 

Re-arrange the following words into a well known phrase or saying: Of, Holes, Full.

[Leo No2]

I still think this is generous. By the time you've removed the winding hole, the disabled mooring and the narrows, I reckon it's more like 1200'.

 

Very useful, Kathryn. I like your reports on how many boats of various lengths can be accommodated. Very often, it's inevitable that unconnected smaller spaces mean that a full length boat can't fit in.

 

Frankly if there's no room at Stoke Bruerne, we just go on a bit.

 

I know it may be heresy to say, but I've never felt SB to be the best place to stop. There's no shop, no chandlery and it's a trek to the nearest station. Admittedly the indian restaurant is pretty good. It seems to be more of a honeypot site for gongoozlers than for boaters.

 

Thanks for your comments - whilst I am specifically interested in Stoke Bruerne there's a matter of principle in my view and I'd just love the same kind of amateur surveys to be undertake at the other sites. I think if CRT had done some prior work they would have been happy to share it - I know I would have and I've done this sort of thing for more years than I care to remember. Give us some empirical evidence and we'll understand the issue but just impose something (as a new revenue stream I wonder?) and of course you will get kick back.

 

There's a small shop in the Boat Inn and the Indian is wonderful!

 

ETA: - Just seen this on NBW.

Edited August 12, 2013 by Leo No2