Huddersfield Narrow Sinking

[jetzi]

1 hour ago, Tacet said:

That's the real nasty dilemma.   If the boat is making a good seal with the cill and the locksides, running water down might lift the upstream end when the downstream end is falling - thus exacerbating the situation.

 

But as you were transiting the top gates, you should have the top paddles open, thus giving a way for the water to enter from the pound into the lock?

 

45 minutes ago, Tacet said:

You might look to see if you slow the leak (re-seat the paddles?)

This is also a pretty good idea to try. Ideally you have a well-informed crew, one can try to slow the leakage from the bottom gates (reseating paddles, pole in the mitre, etc), one can perhaps try to deal with the boat (trying to reverse off the cill, trying to hang the boat up on the bollards to gain another precious minute or two), one can run up to the lock above to let water down (would not want to have to explain if there are other boaters in that lock or pound at the time!).

 

[IanD]

We had exactly the same problem in the same lock in 2013 two weeks after the boat sank there, low pound above and very leaky bottom gates, went aground on the top cill about a third of the way back from the bows, and the lock started to empty through the leaky gates faster than water could get in around the boat.

 

Luckily I'd seen the reports of the sinking on CWDF and had prewarned my wife to come out of the lock very slowly and go full astern if it grounded, so she pulled back into the lock and waited until I run some water down.

 

Would never have seen this coming, and without CWDF we'd probably also have sunk. Thanks guys 😉

Edited October 2, 2021 by IanD

[MtB]

6 hours ago, IanD said:

Luckily I'd seen the reports of the sinking on CWDF and had prewarned my wife to come out of the lock very slowly and go full astern if it grounded, so she pulled back into the lock and waited until I run some water down.

 

Would never have seen this coming, and without CWDF we'd probably also have sunk. Thanks guys 😉

 

Oh that's interesting. I was imagining the risk was entering the lock going downhill. Never occurred to me the same risk exists when leaving the lock.

 

I too would never have even been aware of the risk but for this thread.

[Rob-M]

One of the reasons I ask my wife to go ahead and set the next lock, if the levels are well down on a short pound she waits until I have the top gate open before emptying a full lock so I get a small wave down the pound to raise the boat as I exit the lock.  Had to do this going up hurleston last week as we went up early evening after the lockies had gone home and the pounds were at least 18" down, I was dragging the cill as I exited lock 3 but the little lift from the wave was enough to clear it.

[dmr]

9 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Oh that's interesting. I was imagining the risk was entering the lock going downhill. Never occurred to me the same risk exists when leaving the lock.

 

I too would never have even been aware of the risk but for this thread.

 

I suspect its more likely going up as you will just have taken a lockfull of water out of the pound. Going down the water is usually deeper at the lock mouth so if you get through the shallow pound then chances are you will get into the lock?

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

I almost got caught out going up the Diggle flight this way. 
 

 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

34 minutes ago, Goliath said:

I almost got caught out going up the Diggle flight this way. 
 

 

But it’s clear ain’t it ?

You have to flood the lock quicker than the bottom gates leak the water. 
Having the top gates open while water trickles down into the pound above ain’t gonna help.  

[Tacet]

10 hours ago, jetzi said:

 

But as you were transiting the top gates, you should have the top paddles open, thus giving a way for the water to enter from the pound into the lock?

 

This is also a pretty good idea to try. Ideally you have a well-informed crew, one can try to slow the leakage from the bottom gates (reseating paddles, pole in the mitre, etc), one can perhaps try to deal with the boat (trying to reverse off the cill, trying to hang the boat up on the bollards to gain another precious minute or two), one can run up to the lock above to let water down (would not want to have to explain if there are other boaters in that lock or pound at the time!).

 

Assuming they are ground, not gate paddles, having them drawn should help at least a bit.  Where the levels are low-ish, it might be good practice not to drop the paddles until the boat has cleared the lock.

[Tacet]

2 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Oh that's interesting. I was imagining the risk was entering the lock going downhill. Never occurred to me the same risk exists when leaving the lock.

 

I too would never have even been aware of the risk but for this thread.

The cork-in-a-bottle effect is less than obvious and, as Nock says, is very difficult to address once the boat is grounded.

 

It can work in either direction of travel - but the warning signs may be easier to spot when going uphill.  If it takes an age to fill the lock and the level of the upper pound drops a lot - watch out.  The more cynical might say, on the HNC,  that the first sign is that the pound below being in water.

 

[Rob-M]

5 minutes ago, Tacet said:

Assuming they are ground, not gate paddles, having them drawn should help at least a bit.  Where the levels are low-ish, it might be good practice not to drop the paddles until the boat has cleared the lock.

That is my standard practice, take the boat out of the lock and hold it in the lock mouth whilst I close the paddles and the gate. Problem is when someone is trying to be helpful and do it for you they tend to close a paddle before opening the gate and then close the other paddle once the gate is open.

[Tacet]

1 minute ago, Rob-M said:

That is my standard practice, take the boat out of the lock and hold it in the lock mouth whilst I close the paddles and the gate. Problem is when someone is trying to be helpful and do it for you they tend to close a paddle before opening the gate and then close the other paddle once the gate is open.

That would be me! 

 

With a single gate, I stand on the clapping-post side until there is a level, then drop that paddle and cross the gate before opening the gate.  Less walking.  And I tend to drop the second paddle whilst waiting for the boat to exit.   Saves a few seconds at the end - but it does make shutting the gate tight a little harder.

 

[Rob-M]

7 minutes ago, Tacet said:

That would be me! 

 

With a single gate, I stand on the clapping-post side until there is a level, then drop that paddle and cross the gate before opening the gate.  Less walking.  And I tend to drop the second paddle whilst waiting for the boat to exit.   Saves a few seconds at the end - but it does make shutting the gate tight a little harder.

 

Leaving the offside paddle up saves struggling to open the gate when there is a lot of leakage and as the steerer brings the boat out of the lock they step off and drop the paddle when alongside it. No extra walking involved.

[Captain Pegg]

15 minutes ago, Tacet said:

That would be me! 

 

With a single gate, I stand on the clapping-post side until there is a level, then drop that paddle and cross the gate before opening the gate.  Less walking.  And I tend to drop the second paddle whilst waiting for the boat to exit.   Saves a few seconds at the end - but it does make shutting the gate tight a little harder.

 

 

My pet hate is folks dropping the offside paddle before the top gate is open in a narrow lock. Particularly folk who do it while there is still 6" to go. I often volunteer to work the offside paddles myself when single handing to stop volockies engaging in such practice as they seem wont to do. It's just a polite way of saying "don't do that you numpty because it'd be quicker without your help".

 

It rarely seems to occur to folk - mostly blokes that seem to think some great disaster will befall their boat should they ever leave the helm - that it's really easy for the steerer to close top offside paddles either coming into or leaving the lock.

 

And if the steerer isn't dropping the offside paddle on entry then how about they close the top gate? And then maybe draw a bottom paddle or two before getting back on.

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, Tacet said:

That would be me! 

 

With a single gate, I stand on the clapping-post side until there is a level, then drop that paddle and cross the gate before opening the gate.  Less walking.  And I tend to drop the second paddle whilst waiting for the boat to exit.   Saves a few seconds at the end - but it does make shutting the gate tight a little harder.

 

same

[Midnight]

The west side for some reason is more of a concern for us. Nearly got caught out when a paddle board blew as we were about to exit 24W and the pound above was very low. It's maybe one of the few case where I would encourage CRT to erect a big blue sign warning the unwary.

[TheBiscuits]

9 hours ago, Midnight said:

It's maybe one of the few case where I would encourage CRT to erect a big blue sign warning the unwary.

 

Especially if they put the signs over the leaks in the gates ...

[MtB]

10 hours ago, Midnight said:

The west side for some reason is more of a concern for us. Nearly got caught out when a paddle board blew as we were about to exit 24W and the pound above was very low. It's maybe one of the few case where I would encourage CRT to erect a big blue sign warning the unwary.

 

I wonder which costs more, a new paddle board or a new Big Blue Sign?

 

I reckon they would cost about the same...

 

 

[dmr]

10 hours ago, Midnight said:

The west side for some reason is more of a concern for us. Nearly got caught out when a paddle board blew as we were about to exit 24W and the pound above was very low. It's maybe one of the few case where I would encourage CRT to erect a big blue sign warning the unwary.

 

To be pedantic it should be either a yellow or red sign, there are now so many blue signs that they are just "noise" so CRT are using yellow and red for signs that need to be red, and black signs at "heritage" locations where they don't want to upset the locals.

[Mac of Cygnet]

There was a level warning indicator on the original lock in question last time I came through (3 years ago!), just like the indicators on river locks, but upside down, ie red at the bottom.

[IanD]

4 hours ago, Mac of Cygnet said:

There was a level warning indicator on the original lock in question last time I came through (3 years ago!), just like the indicators on river locks, but upside down, ie red at the bottom.

 

They added that after the sinking (and us not sinking)...

[Tacet]

18 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

My pet hate is folks dropping the offside paddle before the top gate is open in a narrow lock. Particularly folk who do it while there is still 6" to go. I often volunteer to work the offside paddles myself when single handing to stop volockies engaging in such practice as they seem wont to do. It's just a polite way of saying "don't do that you numpty because it'd be quicker without your help".

 

It rarely seems to occur to folk - mostly blokes that seem to think some great disaster will befall their boat should they ever leave the helm - that it's really easy for the steerer to close top offside paddles either coming into or leaving the lock.

 

And if the steerer isn't dropping the offside paddle on entry then how about they close the top gate? And then maybe draw a bottom paddle or two before getting back on.

 

 

The steerer dropping an offside paddle as the boat comes by on its own works for me, but as we usually work two-handed, doesn't achieve much. 

 

Closing the top gate or drawing a bottom paddle less so.  Unless you wait until the boat has been brought to a dead stop (which takes an age), depending on its length I find that it either stops too soon or not soon enough - either of which invokes mild panic and humiliation.  The all-too-few occasions I step off the boat with it moving forward and the engine going astern, close the gate and step back on just as it stops in the right place are impressive, but they can't be replicated reliably.   Strapping-in to close the lock gate would look good too - but too many busybodies around to allow one to practice without criticism.

 

 

[IanD]

20 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

My pet hate is folks dropping the offside paddle before the top gate is open in a narrow lock. Particularly folk who do it while there is still 6" to go. I often volunteer to work the offside paddles myself when single handing to stop volockies engaging in such practice as they seem wont to do. It's just a polite way of saying "don't do that you numpty because it'd be quicker without your help".

 

It rarely seems to occur to folk - mostly blokes that seem to think some great disaster will befall their boat should they ever leave the helm - that it's really easy for the steerer to close top offside paddles either coming into or leaving the lock.

 

And if the steerer isn't dropping the offside paddle on entry then how about they close the top gate? And then maybe draw a bottom paddle or two before getting back on.

 

 

 

There aren't any offside paddles on most of those HNC locks (including the dodgy one), they have two ground paddles on the nearside. So the normal thing to do coming out of the lock (going up) is to push the gate open and drop the paddles, which is when the fun starts...

[jetzi]

2 hours ago, Tacet said:

Strapping-in to close the lock gate would look good too - but too many busybodies around to allow one to practice without criticism.

Can you explain what you mean by strapping-in?

[Rob-M]

26 minutes ago, jetzi said:

Can you explain what you mean by strapping-in?

Have a watch of 

 

 

[jetzi]

Thanks. So this technique is frowned upon because presumably you could damage the lock gates if you do it incorrectly?