Huddersfield Narrow Sinking

[nb Innisfree]

Generally canal boating is neither safe nor dangerous, but is dangerous in parts and safe in others, it just needs knowledge and imagination to spot those parts. Like many so called 'leisure' pursuits you can't afford to relax and take your eye off the ball.

 

I would advise anyone who is unsure how to find the true draught of a boat to go down the weedhatch and hook a tape measure under the skeg and read off the measurement at the water's surface, then add an inch for luck.

 

ETA: Bear in mind that this figure can vary according to level of water and fuel tanks and number of people at each end.

Edited August 8, 2013 by nb Innisfree

[Neil2]

When we did the HNC a few years ago at lock 30W I think a boat had been stuck (going up) for some time because there was a badly leaking bottom gate paddle and the lock refused to make a level. The crew didn't seem to appreciate that because of the volatile nature of the pounds it's often, frustratingly, necessary to send water down from the next pound in order to get the level and the pressure up to overcome the constant loss of water through the bottom gates. This we did and eventually got the boat through. How a single hander would have coped I simply don't know as you really needed to be in two places at once, so I can imagine the frustration might lead to some strongarm tactics to get the gates open. If you did manage to force them open in a situation like this, it's very likely the clearance over the cill would be insufficient.

 

If I remember rightly, wasn't the incident a few years ago caused in this way? The crew forced the gates open to get their boat into the lock when what they should have done was let water down from the pound above. I have heard stories from the locals of all sorts of measures being used to get gates open - eg tow ropes attached to vans but if you have to go to those lengths something is fundamentally wrong.

 

Ironically it was the relatively long pound before 31E where we had the aforementioned problem. We couldn't get the top gates to to shift at all and my wife had to walk all the way back to the previous lock to get the level up in the pound, then shut the paddles as soon as I could open the gates. Thank goodness for mobile phones anyway.

[MartinClark]

When we did the HNC a few years ago at lock 30W I think a boat had been stuck (going up) for some time because there was a badly leaking bottom gate paddle and the lock refused to make a level. The crew didn't seem to appreciate that because of the volatile nature of the pounds it's often, frustratingly, necessary to send water down from the next pound in order to get the level and the pressure up to overcome the constant loss of water through the bottom gates. the cill would be insufficient.

.......

Ironically it was the relatively long pound before 31E where we had the aforementioned problem. We couldn't get the top gates to to shift at all and my wife had to walk all the way back to the previous lock to get the level up in the pound, then shut the paddles as soon as I could open the gates. Thank goodness for mobile phones anyway.

 

I have to confess to being mystified by this. The top gates of a lock will only open when the water in the lock chamber is level with the water in the pound above the lock. I don't see how introducing more water into that pound from above will make it easier to open the gate. If anything it will make it take a little longer.

 

The only point I can see in running water down from the lock above is if there is insufficient water in the pound to get over the cill or to navigate along the pound.

[DHutch]

Ive posted the same on facebook, but as said in Martin's article, the worrying thing is that it appears that such a event could happen to almost anyone. I've certainly left Emily Anne half-in-half-out of a lock when the levels are low before going to let down more water. You don't, or else I would, stop to consider the tail gate would leak enough to significantly reduce the level while your up the other end of the pound.

 

Certainly It'll be a while until I forget having interrupt telling all of Ellesmere Port about YWBS as I was watching EmilyAnne's bow getting increasingly caught under the top lock gate in front of me and thats by far not the only time ive watched her getting hung up on something.

 

 

I'm massively not a fan of a large number of crappy warning signs, but if it where me I would put one up as a temporary measure until the gates are fixed/replaced.

 

 

Daniel

[Neil2]

 

I have to confess to being mystified by this. The top gates of a lock will only open when the water in the lock chamber is level with the water in the pound above the lock. I don't see how introducing more water into that pound from above will make it easier to open the gate. If anything it will make it take a little longer.

 

The only point I can see in running water down from the lock above is if there is insufficient water in the pound to get over the cill or to navigate along the pound.

I know it seems counter intuitive, but on the HNC it seems to be the only way to get certain gates open - because the bottom gates are so leaky and the pound above so shallow, it's almost as though you have to create a sort of flood in the pound to force enough water into the lock and overcome the flow out of the bottom gates. I know it sounds all wrong but it works, at least it did for us. That lock I mentioned, when we eventually got the boat in and shut the top gates she immediately started dropping without touching any paddles the leak was so bad. Whilst I was waiting by the lock a guy came along and told me he once watched as a BW worker hitched a tow rope from his van to the top gate and pulled it open. Others told tales of crowbars and scaffold poles...

 

I'd agree some sort of warning signs seem appropriate but I suspect they won't do this as there's an implication that the canal isn't being properly maintained, perish the thought. The HNC is a good cure for constipation anyway.

[MartinClark]

I live near the HNC and have navigated it numerous times, most recently 3 months ago and have never found a situation where running water down from above would appear to have helped make a level in a lock. I have encountered locks where it was very difficult to make a level and where the boat may have been useful in helping to move the gate, (Not by ramming the gate, of course, but by putting the button against the gate and putting the boat in gear.) Usually the gate can be opened by the addition of extra bums against the beam, if these are available.

 

I do understand that some things can be counter-intuitive, however. I am familiar with the locks on the Rochdale Nine where the best way to open gates in some situations is the counter-intuitive one of opening paddles at both ends.

 

These difficult locks are rare and potential visitors to the canal should not be put off visiting. On our recent passage, we did not encounter any locks that were as difficult as has been described. As others have said, a lot of the gates have been replaced in the last few years.

[Mick and Maggie]

Boaters should be aware that, when closed, a lock gate butts up to a wooden cill (or threshold) that forms a water-tight seal against the gate. These wooden cills are usually slightly higher than the adjacent canal bed. Attempting to enter or leave a lock when water levels are too low can result in the boat's skeg catching the cill and damaging it, or even ripping it out of place. This will mean a water-tight seal cannot be made, making it difficult (or impossible) to completely empty or fill the lock. Boaters should not attempt to force a boat over a cill but should ensure that the water level is increased before proceeding. If necessary the Canal and River Trust should be called out to assist.

[MartinClark]

Boaters should be aware that, when closed, a lock gate butts up to a wooden cill (or threshold) that forms a water-tight seal against the gate. These wooden cills are usually slightly higher than the adjacent canal bed. Attempting to enter or leave a lock when water levels are too low can result in the boat's skeg catching the cill and damaging it, or even ripping it out of place. This will mean a water-tight seal cannot be made, making it difficult (or impossible) to completely empty or fill the lock. Boaters should not attempt to force a boat over a cill but should ensure that the water level is increased before proceeding. If necessary the Canal and River Trust should be called out to assist.

 

From here: Pennine Waterways News Blog

[DeanS]

Terrifying....especially when I remember how many paddles the boats ahead of me on the Wigan flight left open. My eyes have been opened. Great thread and especially relevant with all the low level warnings at the moment.

[Guest]

If level looks a bit low we take a depth reading of the top cill, bottom cill is trickier to do. We did get caught out entering the botton of a Wigan flight lock, entered very slowly but still got stuck despire a fistful of reverse. Easily done.

 

ETA: It's a toss up between going fast to clear the cill before the level drops and going slowly to minimise wedging.

Likewise on Wigan steps. I know others who have reported similar mishaps.

[DeanS]

I've just had LongSufferingWife and my 18yr teen, looking at these pics and posts. None of us ever realised you could still sink your boat entering or leaving a lock, with low pounds. We'll mark our pole with our draught tomorrow. The L&L and Wigan still to come...downhill.

[Doorman]

I don't want to try and read more into this than is there. Does this mean that the boat that sank used the lock even though the bottom gates didn't close properly?

 

Richard

That's exactly how I read it too!

[Doorman]

I think this is a very interesting topic and the moderators should give this one big flashing lights so that as many people as possible read it.

P&H

Completely agree!

 

We have been on the water for over 6 years but are relatively inexperienced boaters due to circumstances beyond our control. Reading this thread has really enlightened us to the unforeseen perils such as those highlighted here and in particular on the HNC.

 

Our boat was once grounded on the lower cill due to some clot leaving the paddles open on the following lock and draining the pound. The boat pivoted more or less mid ships and rocked like a seesaw, until I went on to close the paddles further on then carefully opened the upper paddles on our lock to regain the level.

 

That experience taught me to check the water levels before exiting a lock but I would not have been prepared for what's happened on the Huddersfield.

[Doorman]

Sounds like a good idea.

Yes, I too think that marking your boat hook or pole with a 'draught indicator' is a good idea. I watched a chap using his boat hook in a similar way the other day to discover where the infamous Shroppie ledge was protruding. He was trying to find a decent mooring space where he could come in close to the bank.

[mark99]

I have a mark on my boathook pole corresponding to my boat draught - very useful for assessing potential mooring depths on the K&A. After seeing this, I think I will use it to check water depth over the cill on locks with low pounds.

 

Ditto.

[ditchcrawler]

Yes, I too think that marking your boat hook or pole with a 'draught indicator' is a good idea. I watched a chap using his boat hook in a similar way the other day to discover where the infamous Shroppie ledge was protruding. He was trying to find a decent mooring space where he could come in close to the bank.

I often do this to find an area deep enough to get against the bank, only problem when the boat was painted the painter did the pole as well. It had white sections at each end before.

[mark99]

Yeah we did this on the Shroppie too, but with boat pole rather than hook. Got some funny looks.

[Doorman]

Yeah we did this on the Shroppie too, but with boat pole rather than hook. Got some funny looks.

They were probably from me and our Paddy (the lab). He sits outside watching the boats all day long, we suspect that he's a spy for CaRT and he's checking out the licences.

 

I often do this to find an area deep enough to get against the bank, only problem when the boat was painted the painter did the pole as well. It had white sections at each end before.

I've met painters like him before. They usually paint everything in sight including all of your fancy brassware!

Edited August 10, 2013 by Doorman

[jetzi]

Ancient topic I know, but worth a bump in my opinion. I have been a full time live aboard for 3 years now so not exactly a newbie, but I have never considered that you could sink a boat entering/leaving a full lock from/into a low pound.

 

Everyone should know about this, even though it is a rare event.

 

Key takeaways for me, none of which I knew before this thread:

 

Assess the depth of the pound and don't try enter a lock if there is a low pound above it.

 

You can measure your draft with a tape measure from the skeg to the top of the water level in the wedhatch - then make a depth gauge mark on a pole (useful for many situations methinks!)

 

If you do ground on the top cill you will have seconds to decide what to do - blast of thrust to try to get back to where you came from.

 

A pole between the mitre of the gates can in a pinch slow the leakage.

 

The only remedy for this kind of cilling is to run up to the next lock and let water down into the pound.

 

[system 4-50]

24 minutes ago, jetzi said:

Ancient topic I know, but worth a bump in my opinion. I have been a full time live aboard for 3 years now so not exactly a newbie, but I have never considered that you could sink a boat entering/leaving a full lock from/into a low pound.

 

Everyone should know about this, even though it is a rare event.

 

Key takeaways for me, none of which I knew before this thread:

 

Assess the depth of the pound and don't try enter a lock if there is a low pound above it.

 

You can measure your draft with a tape measure from the skeg to the top of the water level in the wedhatch - then make a depth gauge mark on a pole (useful for many situations methinks!)

 

If you do ground on the top cill you will have seconds to decide what to do - blast of thrust to try to get back to where you came from.

 

A pole between the mitre of the gates can in a pinch slow the leakage.

 

The only remedy for this kind of cilling is to run up to the next lock and let water down into the pound.

 

The size of the pound is significant.  As I understand it, it only applies to short pounds?

[Tacet]

58 minutes ago, jetzi said:

 

The only remedy for this kind of cilling is to run up to the next lock and let water down into the pound.

 

That's the real nasty dilemma.   If the boat is making a good seal with the cill and the locksides, running water down might lift the upstream end when the downstream end is falling - thus exacerbating the situation.

 

[nicknorman]

27 minutes ago, Tacet said:

That's the real nasty dilemma.   If the boat is making a good seal with the cill and the locksides, running water down might lift the upstream end when the downstream end is falling - thus exacerbating the situation.

 

But there is nothing else to be done. If running water down from above doesn’t fix the problem by refloating the boat, it was already too late.

[dmr]

27 minutes ago, Tacet said:

That's the real nasty dilemma.   If the boat is making a good seal with the cill and the locksides, running water down might lift the upstream end when the downstream end is falling - thus exacerbating the situation.

 

 

Since reading about this risk I have been very aware of the danger, especially on the Rochdale were we often encounter low levels in short pounds. First you need to know exactly how deep your boat is, then, whenever passing over a top cill with a low pound level use your calibrated depth stick to ensure that you have adequate depth of water.

[Tacet]

1 minute ago, nicknorman said:

But there is nothing else to be done. If running water down from above doesn’t fix the problem by refloating the boat, it was already too late.

Largely true, I suppose it might foreshorten the agony too. 

 

You might look to see if you slow the leak (re-seat the paddles?) and hope that sufficient water can slip past your boat.  But the bottom line is that there might be nothing much that can be done - and that you have very little time in which to do it!

 

Not nice..

 

 

[Cas446]

and leave the ground paddles open as you exit so that water can get past.