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All Electric


Laurie St Lyon

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In what way? I am open to correction on the fridges. That is what I have read. I did have a 12v in the caravan but it never worked right so I ripped out.

 

An electric shower off an inverter. Lots of boats seem to have them or perhaps I misread, I intend it for days when I dont put the stove on. Mind you a Rocket stove heats up so fast, and gives out such heat, that I may not need it more than an hour in the morning. It depends on the efficiency of my design. Still tweaking that.

 

The thermo couple is mosly for the novelty of trying the technology. I do not intend to rely on it! LOL!

 

The reason for this area of travel is that I want live aboard and cruise a stretch of water where I know the area and can get help if I need it until I know everything works. A few months shake down over winter as it were. I do have friends who live on the cut and basically do the same as they are mobile tradesmen and known in the W,London area.

I would be able to work in London for a bit then move further afield when ready.

 

Thank you...An encouraging word! Hurrah! LOL! Reading through the linked site thanks!

 

I quote from the site kindly supplied by "Julynian" which says: Our latest project, a 55 foot narrowboat, is silently cruising the waterways. High efficiency solar panels cover most of the cabin roof. Two horse power of solar power and a one ton battery drive a ten horse power motor. The boat is capable of one hundred miles a week without a drop of fuel," A tadge MORE than 3 inches.

Your 12 v caravan fridge is a different animal to the 12v fridges you get fir boats. The caravan types from Dometic that run gas/12v/240v volt work on the absorbtion principle. The proper 12 v compressor fridges on most boats are like domestic fridges but with 12 v compressor motors instead of 240. They are just as efficient as home fridges
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Laurie, you have come here with a load of misconceptions and a mind already made up. You just wanted us to rubber stamp your decision.

 

Then you have the temerity to accuse people of knee-jerk reactions.

 

Others have already said what needs to be said. You just have to listen.

 

I will simply add that Bauhaus hasn't "done it". It's a massive white elephant. An eye-sore. A hugely expensive floating shed acting as a monument to one person's folly. Most of all, it is not a boat, though it might qualify as a house-boat.

 

It's a disaster. A kind of disproof of concept. Rather than Bauhaus, they should have named it Ozymandias. The quintessence of hubris applied to boat design (by somebody who knows nothing about boats).

 

Ugh.

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Dor is spot on but to add to that post, 2hrs per day with a weekly 8-10 hrs charge, though neccessary, is actually a minimum, anything less than a 24hr minimum recharge is only a measured retreat from inevitable battery death, at best a compromise between battery and fuel costs.

 

A shame really as those realities do tend to scupper some carefully laid out plans, but it's either carrying on regardless and staying optimistic in the face of the laws of physics or going back to square one and recalculating with the knowledge that it is probably unachievable.

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Laurie,

 

You can see from the above why I am a little reluctant to post on here.

 

I have lived on board an all electric narrowboat (including propulsion) for the last six years. My boat is not self sufficient on solar, and is indeed a series hybrid. A home-brewed diesel generator producing 100amps at 48v and 50amps at 12 volts drives the usual 10HP Lynch motor, with charge stored and released as required by a 48v pack consisting of eight trojan L16E batteries. This battery pack is also charged by five 68W amorphous solar panels through an MPPT controller.

 

I am a continous Cruiser, and like most I only move very slowly (rarely more than 10 miles a week, often less than five (I now await a slagging off from all and sundry). Moving at a normal speed (2.5 - 3 MPH) requires approx 60A. so batteries can be charged whilst cruising, Cruising can be accomplished in silence on batteries, this is great early in the morning or late at night, this is also great in lock flights, I rarely do this for more than two hours just out of respect for my batteries.

 

I also have a 12v battery pack consisting of four cheap chinese 90Ah starter batteries, these are used for lights,pumps and a small inverter for my telly and laptop, this pack is also connected to solar in the form of two 80w monochrystalines and a tracer MPPT.

 

If I was starting again I would Install gas for cooking and instant water heating. The forum is largely correct about this, running my genny every time i use my hob is a pain in the proverbial, although I will probably cause a further ruckuss by admitting that I usually run my microwave, my electric kettle and my toaster from my 48v inverter without problems.

 

One more thing I would do differently is to purchase a decent generator, I believe Fischer-Panda produce a 48V 100A generator for about £8000 this may be expensive but would I am sure be more reliable than mine.

 

I realise that you are looking for self sufficiency from solar, but whilst I wouldn't say this is impossible, I wouldn't be suprised if you needed half an acre of solar panels.

 

Hope this gives you a little more hope.

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Hi Richard,

 

I dont know if this is some subtle joke I dont understand but the answer to your question is nothing whatsoever.

 

Not a joke, George94 mentioned Bauhaus above. I wondered what the technology was, and as you understand this stuff I thought you may have been able to explain it

 

No matter

 

Richard

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Laurie,

 

You can see from the above why I am a little reluctant to post on here.

 

I have lived on board an all electric narrowboat (including propulsion) for the last six years. My boat is not self sufficient on solar, and is indeed a series hybrid. A home-brewed diesel generator producing 100amps at 48v and 50amps at 12 volts drives the usual 10HP Lynch motor, with charge stored and released as required by a 48v pack consisting of eight trojan L16E batteries. This battery pack is also charged by five 68W amorphous solar panels through an MPPT controller.

 

I am a continous Cruiser, and like most I only move very slowly (rarely more than 10 miles a week, often less than five (I now await a slagging off from all and sundry). Moving at a normal speed (2.5 - 3 MPH) requires approx 60A. so batteries can be charged whilst cruising, Cruising can be accomplished in silence on batteries, this is great early in the morning or late at night, this is also great in lock flights, I rarely do this for more than two hours just out of respect for my batteries.

 

I also have a 12v battery pack consisting of four cheap chinese 90Ah starter batteries, these are used for lights,pumps and a small inverter for my telly and laptop, this pack is also connected to solar in the form of two 80w monochrystalines and a tracer MPPT.

 

If I was starting again I would Install gas for cooking and instant water heating. The forum is largely correct about this, running my genny every time i use my hob is a pain in the proverbial, although I will probably cause a further ruckuss by admitting that I usually run my microwave, my electric kettle and my toaster from my 48v inverter without problems.

 

One more thing I would do differently is to purchase a decent generator, I believe Fischer-Panda produce a 48V 100A generator for about £8000 this may be expensive but would I am sure be more reliable than mine.

 

I realise that you are looking for self sufficiency from solar, but whilst I wouldn't say this is impossible, I wouldn't be suprised if you needed half an acre of solar panels.

 

Hope this gives you a little more hope.

 

With enormous respect, your boat is not really "all-electric". Much of the time you are running a generator, and using that (with attendant energy losses) to supply power to your electric motor.

 

We'd all love clean, silent power, but there just isn't enough sun in the UK to supply it.

,

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With enormous respect, your boat is not really "all-electric". Much of the time you are running a generator, and using that (with attendant energy losses) to supply power to your electric motor.

 

We'd all love clean, silent power, but there just isn't enough sun in the UK to supply it.

,

There's enough Sun but not enough collection area.

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Laurie,

 

You can see from the above why I am a little reluctant to post on here.

 

I have lived on board an all electric narrowboat (including propulsion) for the last six years. My boat is not self sufficient on solar, and is indeed a series hybrid. A home-brewed diesel generator producing 100amps at 48v and 50amps at 12 volts drives the usual 10HP Lynch motor, with charge stored and released as required by a 48v pack consisting of eight trojan L16E batteries. This battery pack is also charged by five 68W amorphous solar panels through an MPPT controller.

 

I am a continous Cruiser, and like most I only move very slowly (rarely more than 10 miles a week, often less than five (I now await a slagging off from all and sundry). Moving at a normal speed (2.5 - 3 MPH) requires approx 60A. so batteries can be charged whilst cruising, Cruising can be accomplished in silence on batteries, this is great early in the morning or late at night, this is also great in lock flights, I rarely do this for more than two hours just out of respect for my batteries.

 

I also have a 12v battery pack consisting of four cheap chinese 90Ah starter batteries, these are used for lights,pumps and a small inverter for my telly and laptop, this pack is also connected to solar in the form of two 80w monochrystalines and a tracer MPPT.

 

If I was starting again I would Install gas for cooking and instant water heating. The forum is largely correct about this, running my genny every time i use my hob is a pain in the proverbial, although I will probably cause a further ruckuss by admitting that I usually run my microwave, my electric kettle and my toaster from my 48v inverter without problems.

 

One more thing I would do differently is to purchase a decent generator, I believe Fischer-Panda produce a 48V 100A generator for about £8000 this may be expensive but would I am sure be more reliable than mine.

 

I realise that you are looking for self sufficiency from solar, but whilst I wouldn't say this is impossible, I wouldn't be suprised if you needed half an acre of solar panels.

 

Hope this gives you a little more hope.

Thank you and yes I do. There seems to be more than a bit of bias against continuous cruisers. Perhaps a little jealousy that we dont pay the mooring costs they do.

 

Au contrair to the gentleman above (with whom I am not getting into an argument with. Its not worth the energy!) I came here knowing I was in new territory and expected merely to see if people had done some of the things I was thinking of. I did not expect anyone to have done the whole thing. On a site like this you are bound get trenchant opinion and some people, who as said, have a kne jerk reaction. In addition a lot of helpful and useful advice. I always figure on these forums to take what I can use, give what I can and ignore the rest!

 

I have been studying various tech site and blogs of people who as I say have successfully done bits of the idea. Perhaps I am being a bit optimistic and need to go as far as I can and await a further jump in technology. Thanks for posting. If I may I would like to contact you privately and pick your brains at some point.

Thanks for the info on fridges.

 

The CRT "requirements" to comply with cc are that you move "neighbourhoods" every 14 days. Its on their faq. The definition of neighbourhood" is rather imprecise but they seem to use a defined geographic area, I suspect that more people do this than actually are on one long meander through the canal/river system. (I did go into it clearly.-I'm a (currently non-practicing) Solicitor).

They also seem to interprete it reasonably. However, that may well change. We will see.

 

I may well wind up locuming up and down the thames valley! Or at least Reading to Bristol!

That company have ceased to supply full systems themselves but now provide information on their websites.

I think that 100 miles was on just the battery bank. You then need to recharge.

the point is how many people actually do thats sort of mileage actually it is 5 hours a day. so start at 1 after lunch you have had a morning to recharge. stop for tea and you get another couple of hours. Plus you are getting a trickle all days. Seems not unreasonable. If they add charging points (which I would access in an emergency) then the prospect really becomes viable.

Re-read the page on they show various figures dependenat on a scale of discharge of 30-70%. Do have a look at the page (especially those of a critical eye) all is grist to the mill.

Edited by Laurie St Lyon
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I am two months from achieving my 20 yr dream of living on the cut. I had to get rid of the wife to do it but what the heck? No morefrusty.gif

 

As such I have been updating my knowledge of whats out there. Boy have things changed!

 

I came across the blog: (http://solarpowerednarrowboat.blogspot.co.uk/ )

 

Has anyone gone all electric propulsion/cooking or experience with large solar setups on the cut?

Although, I have no aversion to blazing a trail I would rather not reinvent the wheel! I have pulled together info from many sources but would prefer to hear from anyone with real world experience. Thanks.

 

You may find some useful information here...

 

http://www.electric-boat-association.org.uk/members.htm

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There's enough Sun but not enough collection area.

 

That's incorrect also, there's enough sun energy in a small proportion of the Sahara desert to power the entire planet. Just 3 percent of the Saharah's energy would adequately power the whole of Europe.

 

http://inhabitat.com/worlds-largest-solar-project-sahara-desert/

 

This has been known for decades, and if we had concentrated on solar energy rather than relying on fossil fuels we would today be using energy that would be a tenth of the cost we're paying now.

 

Gerhard Knies, a German particle physicist, was the first person to estimate how much solar energy was required to meet humanity's demand for electricity. In 1986, in direct response to the Chernobyl nuclear accident, he scribbled down some figures and arrived at the following remarkable conclusion: in just six hours, the world's deserts receive more energy from the sun than humans consume in a year. If even a tiny fraction of this energy could be harnessed – an area of Saharan desert the size of Wales could, in theory, power the whole of Europe – Knies believed we could move beyond dirty and dangerous fuels for ever. Echoing Schuman's own frustrations, Knies later asked whether "we are really, as a species, so stupid" not to make better use of this resource. Over the next two decades, he worked – often alone – to drive this idea into public consciousness.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2011/dec/11/sahara-solar-panels-green-electricity

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That's incorrect also, there's enough sun energy in a small proportion of the Sahara desert to power the entire planet. Just 3 percent of the Saharah's energy would adequately power the whole of Europe.

 

http://inhabitat.com/worlds-largest-solar-project-sahara-desert/

 

This has been known for decades, and if we had concentrated on solar energy rather than relying on fossil fuels we would today be using energy that would be a tenth of the cost we're paying now.

 

Gerhard Knies, a German particle physicist, was the first person to estimate how much solar energy was required to meet humanity's demand for electricity. In 1986, in direct response to the Chernobyl nuclear accident, he scribbled down some figures and arrived at the following remarkable conclusion: in just six hours, the world's deserts receive more energy from the sun than humans consume in a year. If even a tiny fraction of this energy could be harnessed – an area of Saharan desert the size of Wales could, in theory, power the whole of Europe – Knies believed we could move beyond dirty and dangerous fuels for ever. Echoing Schuman's own frustrations, Knies later asked whether "we are really, as a species, so stupid" not to make better use of this resource. Over the next two decades, he worked – often alone – to drive this idea into public consciousness.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2011/dec/11/sahara-solar-panels-green-electricity

I think this contributor meant on a normal boat.. However I agree the tropical and desert climate zones could generat huge ammounts of power. Pity about the ugly pylons to transmit it. Still better than smog or nuclear waste. However the only thing that would make it happen will be money.

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In theory energy is in abundance and is never depleted but turning that into realistic usage is a long way in the future, meanwhile we have to deal with todays inconvenient facts.

 

ETA: We have to be careful about what we wish for, if we do find limitless energy for all there will be a real risk of releasing too much of it and overheating planet Earth.

Edited by nb Innisfree
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Of course apologies the reference was to roof space LOL

 

Ref Pylons

 

Sahara Solar Could all be done with underground cable or even cable running above ground like oil pipelines. The only reason for pylons is to go over properties and people in an urban environment. The desert has nothing in the way, and cabling would simply run alongside access roads.

 

A solar powered boat is perfectly feasible, an all electric boat extremely difficult.

 

I have 500 watts of solar going on the roof. With basically a 240 volt fridge A+ rated 30inch 12v TV, 2 laptops lights and several fans. We'll basically be self sufficient for electricity as lone as there's decent light & sun, as in the past 4 weeks I wouldn't think I would have needed to charge batteries via engine or genny. Of course we would have to have cruised at least twice in 4 weeks, although we would move much more than this anyway.

 

It would be possible for us to easily get 4KW solar on our roof. So adding in an electric propulsion motor I'm sure the additional 3.5 KW of solar would suffice to power it.

 

At the end of the day we don't intend to extensively cruise and quite simply if energy levels are low due to poor weather then cruise less, I'm certainly not on any kind of schedule LOL

 

Another point is electric propulsion must be quite efficient as you only engage it when needed unlike an engine which is usually left idling for ages at locks waiting to be engaged, although I suppose putting something in to batteries but still costing.

 

We'll have to stick with the diesel engine now though and the back up diesel genny. Avoiding running the main engine for generation though is a big pluss, and the smaller engine generator uses 1/4 the diesel the main engine does.

 

So we'll see how our 500 watts of solar get on in a few weeks time. I only bought an Outback 60 as Lynn insists that she wants no more additional panels on the boat roof, I've talked her in to one additional panel though if it turns out we need it, we need it LOL hence the O/B 60 As we definitely will for the winter periods.


In theory energy is in abundance and is never depleted but turning that into realistic usage is a long way in the future, meanwhile we have to deal with todays inconvenient facts.

ETA: We have to be careful about what we wish for, if we do find limitless energy for all there will be a real risk of releasing too much of it and overheating planet Earth.

 

Solar energy would avoid "global warming" not increase it. Having not to burn fossil fuels avoids the gasses that damage and pollute the atmosphere.

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There's enough Sun but not enough collection area.

 

Same thing. There is obviously enough sun.

 

Those who propose turning an area the size of Wales into a giant solar collector haven't thought long about the cost of doing it, the cost of storing power for the night, the cost of transporting it, or the political ramifications.

 

If it were easy, the oil companies would have done it.

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As soon as we find superconducting at ambient temperatures then we've cracked it. Or nuclear fusion. Or solar panels. Don't they realise it's just a question of diverting a bit more money into research...

 

Reminds me of the story in WW2 when someone suggested to the govt a death could be used to shoot down enemy bombers, he went into great detail about the protective clothing to be worn by the operator of the weapon. When he was asked about the death ray and how it worked he answered by saying they only had to look in the archives, there must be several to choose from.

 

Same thing. There is obviously enough sun.

 

Those who propose turning an area the size of Wales into a giant solar collector haven't thought long about the cost of doing it, the cost of storing power for the night, the cost of transporting it, or the political ramifications.

 

If it were easy, the oil companies would have done it.

Nothing wrong with covering Wales in solar panels.

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Same thing. There is obviously enough sun.

 

Those who propose turning an area the size of Wales into a giant solar collector haven't thought long about the cost of doing it, the cost of storing power for the night, the cost of transporting it, or the political ramifications.

 

If it were easy, the oil companies would have done it.

 

It's because of oil companies it hasn't been done, the profits from oil will always far outweigh profits from Solar energy which long term are a fraction of the costs of fossil fuels. Large oil companies have bought up and now own many technologies that would save energy worldwide. They'll only use this technology when it's profitable enough for them.

 

Oil companies and the like rule the world, NOT politicians.

  • Greenie 1
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Not a joke, George94 mentioned Bauhaus above. I wondered what the technology was, and as you understand this stuff I thought you may have been able to explain it

 

No matter

 

Richard

 

sorry richard I was expecting some digs.

 

Firstly let me say I am no expert at any of this, I am simply a sad engineer/ geek who likes to do things differently, when I first started this project several people told me it would never work, this was a red rag to a bull. some of these people have since been taken for a short silent cruise just to prove the point. My boat was and still is a big experiment that I live on.

 

I have just visited the link you refer to, I think the whole site is an advertisment for a company hoping to make a lot of money out of other peoples boats (or mistakes). Like all adverts I think the reality is stretched somewhat.

 

Firstly I think it is too big for regular cruising. Secondly I have always had doubts about underfloor heating on a boat, in order to work efficiently this form of heating needs a large thermal mass to store and release the heat, I have never understood how it is possible to produce this mass suitably insulated from the canal and still have sufficient headroom within the profile of a standard boat.

 

This boat seems to confirm my previous comment about requiring half an acre of solar panels. I was particularly intrigued by this bit "we measured just over 5km/h at 30% engine power", 5km/h is approximately 3mph, 30% engine power ? These lynch motors are usually stated as 10Hp so 30% of this would be 3.3Hp or 2500 watts. At the same 3mph my boat uses 60Amps at a nominal 48V this is 2900 watts yet my boat (57ft X 6ft 10 Inches) has only half the underwater profile. I think I may have to spend some more time experimenting with prop and reduction ratios.I find it hard to believe that I am using more power to move less weight against half the resistance.

 

I repeat I am no expert at any of this stuff. For what its worth these are my opinions after a very quick scan of the afforementioned site.

 

I hope this helps in some way.

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Yes, it helps

 

Thanks Mark

 

When I approach this concept in idle musing, I think I would be looking at the 'reduce' side of the problem. LED lighting is a massive gift. I would cook with gas, perhaps heat that way too backed up with very good insulation. I would also be looking to reduce the weight and size of the boat as much as possible to cut the draft, and pay attention to the hull shape to make it swim as well as possible

 

Really, a wooden or GRP boat would be a better starting point than a steel narrowboat. I suspect if all the aspects were very carefully calculated and balanced, this would work. Well, certainly as a summer boat

 

Richard

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It's because of oil companies it hasn't been done, the profits from oil will always far outweigh profits from Solar energy which long term are a fraction of the costs of fossil fuels. Large oil companies have bought up and now own many technologies that would save energy worldwide. They'll only use this technology when it's profitable enough for them.

 

Oil companies and the like rule the world, NOT politicians.

cheers.gif

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Yes, it helps

 

Thanks Mark

 

When I approach this concept in idle musing, I think I would be looking at the 'reduce' side of the problem. LED lighting is a massive gift. I would cook with gas, perhaps heat that way too backed up with very good insulation. I would also be looking to reduce the weight and size of the boat as much as possible to cut the draft, and pay attention to the hull shape to make it swim as well as possible

 

Really, a wooden or GRP boat would be a better starting point than a steel narrowboat. I suspect if all the aspects were very carefully calculated and balanced, this would work. Well, certainly as a summer boat

 

Richard

I have been back and read the technical page again, there is a lot of bullshit in there,

 

"This battery bank will enable you to cruise between 5 to 10 hours at 4-5km/h giving you a cruising range of up to 40km. The 50% discharged batteries, can be fully charged within 4 hours."

 

There is no obvious mention of the actual battery capacity but in order to get that range it must be absolutely enormous! and still rechargeable from 50% in four hours....I don't think so.

 

He also claims that the solar panels are charging the battery whilst cruising, this is impossible unless the panels are producing more current than the motor requires, this would make the range infinite.

 

The idea of putting the solar panels on the cabin side to take advantage of light reflected from the water seems very clever, but can it really have been thought up by the same man who says "Equally a removable reflective solar sail made of aluminium chequered plate, or sections of acrylic mirror can be mounted on the roof increasing the efficiency of you roof panels tremendously." does the guy actually have any idea what a solar sail is?

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He also claims that the solar panels are charging the battery whilst cruising, this is impossible unless the panels are producing more current than the motor requires, this would make the range infinite.

 

 

I must remember not to get behind a solar powered boat in the convoy through Harecastle tunnel biggrin.png

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