4 Lk Rocker Gear

[Charlotte Burnett]

My 4 LK does not oil on either rocker of number 1 cylinder or on the inlet of no 4. I'm not sure when it last oiled on no 4 - before I owned it. The development on no 1 is within the last few weeks. I have been lubricating by oil can but these is tedious and the situation is concerning. Engineers I have spoken to have suggested to leave be and continue oiling with a can.

 

The good news is that it runs smoothly and with little smoke beyond start up or under heavy load. This soon clears as would be expected of a healthy engine.

 

The bad news is that it is clearly less healthy than it sounds.

 

I have stripped the oil filter housing and all external oilways including the banjo feed that the manual states is for the valve gear. This has been reassembled although I have not stripped and cleaned the PRV due to not having an oil pressure reading to reset to. I am aware that it should be 35 psi. I will post a reading soon but if it is 2 figures beginning with a 2 I'll be happy considering!

 

I scraped considerable goo from the housing and then drained the oil, first from the dipstick, then from the PRV oilway leading down to the pump and then by concertinaing myself into a tiny hole to access the sump plug. I unscrewed it. Nothing happened but the plug came out with goo sticking 1.5" proud. I stuck my pinkie through the drain hole and past 2" or so of goo, there was a farting noise and lumps of oil fell out. Rubbing it between my fingers, I found it to be gummy. The solid particles in it were coke rather than metal.

 

I refilled, using considerably more oil than I ever have before, in great hope that the oil ways would start to clear but alas not. My thoughts now are to strip the rocker gear. I have attempted to do this but there is nothing about it in the general manual and the parts guide is of limited use. The rocker gear runs in a pair of core plugs, only one of which is accessable. My understanding is that there is one shaft per head. The removal of the core plug showed a significant build up of film and also paint debris. The shaft is hollow but appears not to be tapped for application of a puller. Central to the rocker arm are 3 bolts, 2 square headed pointed ones with a gas type thead which the parts manual labels as lubrication control screws or similar. The central one is a short set screw with a hex head that appears to lead down an oil way.

 

All suggestions are welcome, although anyone who suggests filling the engine with paraffin/diesel and running followed by draining, will be taken up on their presumed offer of unlimited free shoreline mooring, free lathe time and workshop access for the duration of repairs following such a flush!

 

Does anyone have a copy of Gardner Workshop Tools 55 book? I'm not sure if it might be the holy grail I seek but I hold out hope!

 

[Chris Pink]

 

 

Does anyone have a copy of Gardner Workshop Tools 55 book? I'm not sure if it might be the holy grail I seek but I hold out hope!

 

 

I have Tools Book 63 LX and HLX but not 55 LK

 

Do you know the number of the tool you need?

[Charlotte Burnett]

I'm not sure of the tool I need, other than the book! My reading suggests that these books detail operations that are not in the general manual. The LX looks not dissimilar in construction from the LK so it may be helpful. What I want to do is pull the rocker shaft out, ideally, without tapping it for an M8 eyebolt and tying a rope around said eye before using a friend's boat to pull the thing out.

[Chris Pink]

Unfortunately there's stuff about the camshaft and bushes and extracting the camshaft but not the rocker shaft. The only thing about the rocker is a sectional drawing Relation of Valves to Rocker Shaft but nothing about getting it out.

[Timleech]

The square headed pointed screws will be holding the rocker shaft(s) in place. It's a few years since I had an LK head apart but I'd expect to find two shafts per head. You need to relieve the pressure on them by slackening the tappets right back, then it's often possible to work the shafts out by 'twisting' one of the rockers to make in bind on the shaft & then pushing against the spring which holds the two rockers apart. Having got one shaft out, you should then be able to get the other one all the way across the vacant space to get it out as well.

Of course, if everything as as thoroughly gummed up as your description suggests all bets will be off.

 

Tim

 

Edit - just checked my parts book to confirm there are two rocker shafts per head. You may be confusing them with the compression relief shafts (decompressor shafts), of which there are one per head.

Take the square headed screws right out. They have a BSF thread, by the way.

Definitely sort it out, don't leave it.

 

Tim

Edited July 28, 2013 by Timleech

[The Bagdad Boatman (waits)]

There is a lot more work you need to do from the sounds of it. A compleat strip down to clear the oilways on the crankshaft housing. I used a thin bottle brush to push crud out of the oilways on my cranksafts. Like yours I had 1 inch of crud inside the sump. RW Davis wanted to cut a hole in the roof to remove the engine, I succeeded in jacking the engine up on blocks and removing the sump inside the boat. Not easy but it had to be done. Anywhere oil needs to go will be blocked from your description. Diesel oil is a good flusher as most heavy engines have traces in the sump anyway. When you have cleared all the oilways and slush look at one of the american oil filters, I bolted a pair on the bulkhead.

[bizzard]

Sludgeing of oil in an engine and sump is a typical sign of the oil never getting hot enough and is always too cool, mixes with condensation which has trouble evaporating causing the sludge, engine too big for the boat and so is never under enough load to heat the engine mass low down and oil sufficiently.

Edited July 29, 2013 by bizzard

[bizzard]

Sludgeing of oil in an engine and sump is a typical sign of the oil never getting hot enough and is always too cool, mixes with condensation which has trouble evaporating causing the sludge, engine too big for the boat and so is never under enough load to heat the engine mass low down and oil sufficiently.

A good example of the sludging problem was for those folk who remember the Ford CVH petrol engine as once fitted to Escorts, Orions and some Sierra's. Although a very good engine the sumps hung down and took the full blast of cooling air during the cars forward progression and caused severe sludging throughout their life due to the oil not getting hot enough, especially the cars that only did short runs, like the school run and rarely warmed their engines fully. They needed very regular oil changes and often flushing or sump removal to de-sludge them. And it made no difference what fancy multigrade oil you put in them.

[Split Pin]

The General Direction book that I have covers details of engine overhaul although it still would not give the answer to your problem.

Gardner produced two versions of book one detailed the general maintenance, the other more detailed and contains overhaul information.

As Tim says there are two shafts per head. To remove them make unscrew the tappet adjusting screws so that there is no pressure on the shaft, alternately you may be able to lever the rocker arm up and move the pushrod from under the the screw. Make sure that the piston is down far enough!

Remove the square headed screws, best way I find to undo them is to use a 1/4" square drive socket upside down with an allen key in the hexagon side (8 or 10mm).

Once the rockers are free from pressure push no1 rocker towards the back of the engine then carefully clamp a pair of grips around the shaft between the rocker and the head, with luck you will be able to turn the shaft and work it out of the head.

I have a copy of tools book 55, but it will not be of any help in sorting your current predicament

I also have a parts book as well in pdf, Tools book only in original form at the moment, PM me with an email address that can take attachments up to 8mb and i will email you what I have.

 

Steve

[Charlotte Burnett]

Thank you all. I'm aware that the sump really needs to come off and have worked out that the best way to do this with my install is with a block and tackle suspended from 2 scaff bars over the roof and through the doors. However, there are so many other issues with the engine installation, I'm hoping I can delay this until I have the funds available to sort them all - not least the over-efficient cooling making an overpowered engine even more trouble!

 

Steve Split Pin, you have PM!

[Charlotte Burnett]

Bagdad Boatman - are you running a 4LK? Would love to see photos of what you have done with oil filtration - I've been thinking to use a modern spin on type but cannot see how to make this the primary filter with the 4LK arrangement.

[Chris Pink]

Sorry!! mouth before brain moment.

Edited July 30, 2013 by Chris Pink

[Timleech]

The 4LK I'm familiar with has a double on the engine room wall, modern CAV 296 type which goes to the lift pump and then retains the rest of the pipework to the dinky little domed one on the front of the engine.

That's for fuel filtration, modernising the oil filtration would be a bit more complex, and entails breaking into the fixed copper pipework.

 

Tim

[steamraiser2]

Modernising the oil system to fit a modern oil filter housing is straight forward enough. We have used an off the shelf housing with a spin off filter which can be bought from Ebay or one of the hydraulic hose firms such as Hyphose or Pirtek. A good motor factor will fix you up with a suitable vehicle oil filter element. It is easy enough to plumb in to the oil piping to divert via the filter. Copper piping or suitable oil hose is fine. If you use oil hose clamp it up with Mikalor clips which are far superior to Jubilee clips.

 

The advantage of a full flow oil filter is that the engine will be able to run on a more detergent monograde oil which will cut down on the settlement in the sump. It was a common enough conversion during the 70s especially in cranes and draglines. You will need to take the sump off and clean it out though. You will never flush a couple of inches of coke and sludge out successfully. I stripped a 4LW last week for rebuilt and filled a washing up bowl with a curious mixture of coke, sludge and tar. As an added bonus the sump was a magnesium alloy one which had corroded around the inset little sump the oil pump suction pipe sits in. Joy of joys the sump was degraded and fell to bits when pressure washed.

 

You must cure the rocker feed as a matter of urgency. A good tip is to soak the rocker shafts and oil feed piping (any oil piping really) in traffic film remover (TFR) It is a caustic soda product and will dissolve oil and coke far faster than any degreaser. Don't allow it to dry on the parts, especially aluminium components which will go all furry. Rinse in water and blow through with an air line. If you do this and still have no feed up top its likely that the oil pump relief valve is stuck open. What ever you do don't leave it!

[Charlotte Burnett]

I've been worrying about this all day because I'm too tired to do anything about it! I really need some advice as to what to do.

 

The engine in question is not in a wonderful state, it is missing it's original water pump, there is no charging on it (or easy to fit), there is no thermostat on the raw water cooling, several bolts have been stretched, presumably by the same person who applied paint to some of the internal/mating surfaces. The sump is cracked around the drain plug, it holds in place and does not lose oil here though (!)

 

The engine is far too big for a narrowboat. It probably could be made to work adequately in Roe since she is pretty heavy. I'm not in love with my engine but I don't hate it either. I'm massively under-propped but attached to a PRM 750 box that I am quite happy with.

 

I've been stuck in a boatyard for 3 months near enough, I don't want to go back into one, I want to go up to a festival in Tamworth. I also have no real money left for a job like this except by power of my own spanners.

 

I would appreciate your opinion on this but I suspect that my best option is to take a 2 pronged approach to this, for now, to remove the rockers to try and get the top oiling so I can be on my way and not worrying about the immediate future. What worries me though is: Is it possible given Tim's warning? Will I get to Tamworth with nothing but regular oil changes and an oil can?

 

I will probably want to return to the south east again after my jolly for winter. At this stage, I could perhaps take a winter mooring within several hosepipe lengths of a tap. I would want to address the issues of cooling and charging simultaneously.

 

I have worked out how to lift the engine. I have rebuilt and modified aircooled VW engines so removing the sump and cleaning it is a massive pain and pretty scary rather than something totally beyond my ability. I can borrow a block and tackle and suspect also a spinal tap sized torque wrench. I am not experienced with massive diesels though and lack many of the specialist tools required to do the top end (eg to remove the injectors). I would want to do piston rings, decoke etc at the same time but would hope to leave the crankcase untouched more than a thorough clean of everything accessible.

 

The elephant in the room that I have hinted at is to replace it with something more sensible. Presumably this would entail new engine beds being welded in place, wooden blocks machining and so forth; how long would that take? Could an adaptor plate be welded up?

[Timleech]

I would appreciate your opinion on this but I suspect that my best option is to take a 2 pronged approach to this, for now, to remove the rockers to try and get the top oiling so I can be on my way and not worrying about the immediate future. What worries me though is: Is it possible given Tim's warning? Will I get to Tamworth with nothing but regular oil changes and an oil can?

Those rocker shafts will have to come out sooner or later, so why not sooner? If they don't want to move, you could try spraying some carb cleaner or similar in via the end plugs and around the ends of the shafts with the aim of loosening whatever grot might be holding them.

 

Tim

[The Bagdad Boatman (waits)]

Bagdad Boatman - are you running a 4LK? Would love to see photos of what you have done with oil filtration - I've been thinking to use a modern spin on type but cannot see how to make this the primary filter with the 4LK arrangement.

I used a bypass filter system on my Lister FR2, spured off the oil presure pipe and returned into the gearbox. worked well. Mounted on the bulkhead. Maybe there are better ways to access the oil pipes.

 

AMSOIL BY-PASS FILTRATION SYSTEMS.

[steamraiser2]

If you try to continue to run the engine without curing the current problem you are highly likely to trash the engine. It is difficult to source 4LK parts these days and a major failure may prove to be a terminal event. Fixing the blockage and cleaning out the sump is the cheapest and most effective option. If you ignore it you will be sorry for sure.

Edited July 31, 2013 by steamraiser2

[BEngo]

I have to agree with Tim and Steamraiser. There are significant problems with oil flow to the top end so it is a safe bet that there are plenty more part blocked oilways and no doubt a few just looking to become fully blocked as soon as a bit of use stirs up some gunge.

 

The LK is a pretty robust engine, but it ain't unbreakable. You may get to Tamworth and back again. At best you will have inflicted unnecessary wear on the crank, camshaft and rocker gear, At worst you are likely to break down en-route and be forced to do some serious remediation where you don't want to.

 

Either get a tow to and from Tamworth, go by bus, train or car or fix the engine whilst it's still fixable.

 

If you can deal with an aircooled VW engine and box then an LK won't be any more difficult. The top end is much the same as a petrol engine, but there is a sprayer (Gardner speak for injector) instead of a spark plug, and the tops of the pistons are different. All the injection equipment is a specialists job. If you take the heads off complete with injector then I'm sure that someone with the right gear will be able to take the injectors out.

 

The bits are bigger so you might need a lift with some and I doubt that you will need a Torque wrench- the tightness is usually measured in 'White Knuckle ' units. You will need a big bar for your sockets and at least 1/2 inch drive is recommended.

 

N

[Timleech]

Be careful, if you do take the heads off complete with injectors, that the nozzles project slightly from the bottom face of the head so could be damaged if not put down carefully.

Proper kit for removing the injectors is a bar to go across the top of the head and a special screw & nut with a fine thread to match the fuel connection in the top of the injector. The LK bar is bent down at both ends to give extra clearance, but if you can find/borrow one for an LW (more likely), which is just a flat bar, you can just pack the ends up from the edges of the head. A slide hammer could also be used, but it'll need an adapter with the same fine thread.

 

It's often possible to remove them by worrying them back & forth with a twisting motion while carefully levering them up, but the proper tool is much better. If you get into that sort of thing, I can check what the special thread is & let you know.

 

Tim

[RLWP]

The elephant in the room that I have hinted at is to replace it with something more sensible. Presumably this would entail new engine beds being welded in place, wooden blocks machining and so forth; how long would that take? Could an adaptor plate be welded up?

 

What about the elephant in the room option

 

Could Charlotte get something else fitted, and what is her 4LK worth?

 

Maybe that needs answering by PM to Charlotte

 

Richard

[The Bagdad Boatman (waits)]

If you lift the engine on a block and chain you must support or prop it up with trestles or wood blocks. belt and braces are better than a flat head.

[Charlotte Burnett]

Ok, quick update, the rocker shaft oiling holes on no1 and no 4 are blocked, no surprise there. The no 3 shaft will not come out of the hole I removed no 4 though despite lubricating and wiggling. I figure it is probably out of round and am all ears as to extraction methods.

 

Now, unblocking the holes will presumably solve the immediate problem but it does not address the issue of the oil way leading up to them. The General Instructions book (p32) illustrates the cylinder head and block assembly. A line runs from the front of the block visible through the inspection panel, up and onto two banjos which look as though they would be accessible through the cylinder head inspection panels. I suspect that this is the feed to the rockers. Can anyone confirm this? If so, can you tell me how to get at them to clean them? I assume that this job entails removing the fuel filter assembly and, rather more terrifyingly, the fuel injection pump and governor assembly. If this is the case, I would appreciate direction on this.

 

Many thanks

[Charlotte Burnett]

Sorted for now, rocker removed through cunning application of welding rod and needle nose pliers, oil line confirmed as the one I thought and injected with diesel until it ran pink and not lumpy, me sat with my feet up and beer.

[RLWP]

Nice one Charlotte. Enjoy your beer, you've earned it

 

Richard