Narrow Boat Hit By Trip Boat On Tidal Thames

[lynalldisocvery]

Can anyone recommend a decent VHF radio for navigation purposes?

 

We would like to venture down to the Thames at some point and along with any other necessary equipment would wish to include this vital piece of kit.

 

Cheers,

 

Mike

Icom are good, recently did my vhf course, had the boat for 18mths! and the guy doing the course told us that Icom supply the test sets at good prices for the trainers so thats what people are happy with and thats what they buy later, Icom are in Kent and apparently their aftersales is fantastic.

He also said new rules coming out that the tester can no longer mark the course work, so another guy needed hence prices are bound to rise.

 

 

Lynall

[larryjc]

I think there are several misconceptions here. Firstly all the commercial skippers know the COLREGS and my experience on the Thames two weeks ago was that if you also followed them there was no problem.

However secondly I suspect they also know that many narrowboaters don't - people here saying that the boat that was hit should have got out of the way - no he shouldn't. As 'stand on' vessel that is what you are required to do, otherwise you get the two people going through a door syndrome where you both keep turning into each other. So I suspect they watch us amateurs with a degree of caution. When I am in 'bouncy sea, stick up, with cloth on' mode I know that commercial vessels call us WAFIs (WInd Assisted F***ing idiots) they probably have another nice name for amateur power boaters of all sorts on the Thames.

 

All that said it does sound as if the commercial boat was totally in the wrong in this case. He was required to keep clear and maintain a proper lookout, from what is on here neither seems to be the case.

 

Radios - I bought the cheapest hand held I could get - Midland Pacific 5 watts and it worked fine - there are VHF aerials all the way up the Thames and a 5 Watt radio has more than enough power for the job.

[Guest]

I wonder why (if true) that professional skippers feel the need to refer to amature skippers using derogatory terms.

 

Smacks of arrogance to me, and arrogance has no place on a busy waterway

[Ray T]

I wonder why (if true) that professional skippers feel the need to refer to amateur skippers using derogatory terms.

 

Smacks of arrogance to me, and arrogance has no place on a busy waterway

 

When the TV series "Warship" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warship_(TV_series) was broadcast in the 1970's I remember the Captain / Commander referring to the many yachts sailing the Solent as "Sunday Sailors". I thought, at the time. "I'm one of them".

 

I think that many professionals look "down" on amateurs as they are seen as a playing at whatever pastime is taking place.

Edited July 26, 2013 by Ray T

[Scholar Gypsy]

_{I agree with the previous posting by larryjc. I would also add that in my experience one needs to behave differently when meeting}

 

• _{passenger trip boats - as noted earlier these regularly turn round, overtake, switch sides, stop at piers, break away from piers, tie up at their moorings, and so on. The safest plan (as Colregs say and as noted above) is for a narrowboater is to maintain a confident, steady course and speed, while not getting too close to the right hand bank (for example if you are too far to the right when going upstream through Tower Bridge then you cause problems for boats using Tower Pier). In my experience trip boats will navigate around you safely.}

 

• _{large commercial vessels - eg a tug and three barges on its way to Wandsworth (photo below). Here they are taking a steady course and speed, and cannot slow down without losing control, and you should keep out of the way. So for example I was recently crewing on a narrowboat approaching Albert Bridge - where there is only one upstream arch. We saw a tug coming up from behind and the white isophase light flashing on the bridge. We did not fancy going through the bridge at the same time as the tug, so I got on the radio and asked if the tug wanted to go through first. If he had said yes we would have turned around to starboard (4+1 blast), and stemmed the tide until he had gone past me (passing starboard to starboard) before turning again to continue upstream. As it happens he said no, as he was slowing down anyway before stopping at Battersea.}

 

Edited July 26, 2013 by Scholar Gypsy

[Guest]

Sunday sailors is not the same as referring to someone as an idiot

 

Sunday sailor is probably factual, idiot is judgmental and uneccassery.

[blackrose]

As this is a discussion forum should "uninformed" thoughts not be welcomed in order that they be converted into "informed" thoughts by those with greater knowledge and experience?

 

That is of course if the person is willing to acknowledge their inexperience and willingness to learn from others...

 

So, Phyllis...changed your mind?

 

Yes, that's the point. It's fine to share ill-informed thoughts, views or questions (many of us do it), but doing so with such certainty just makes that poster look silly. I'm sure we've all occasionally been guilty of this in the past, but Phyllis just never seems to learn that some people here have much more experience and knowledge and she does it again and again...

Edited July 26, 2013 by blackrose

[larryjc]

I wonder why (if true) that professional skippers feel the need to refer to amature skippers using derogatory terms.

 

Smacks of arrogance to me, and arrogance has no place on a busy waterway

 

If it was arrogance then I would agree. However as a commercial skipper myself as well as narrow boat driver I see both sides. What would you call a narrow boat skipper who tries to come down the wrong side of the canal or overtake on the wrong side? My guess is that it would be derogatory. That's because you know the rules and he clearly doesn't - and should.

 

It seems to me that guidance for the Thames trip is pretty good - I read most of it myself as I've not done the trip in any form of craft before. However, there seems to be very little about how to conduct yourself in a busy waterway with regards to the Collision Regulations. Some fairy ill informed comments on this thread seem to bear that out as well. So maybe the missing thing here is to give some basic guidance about when to stand on and when to keep clear - note I do not say 'right of way' because that is not the way to view it.

[Guest]

If it was arrogance then I would agree. However as a commercial skipper myself as well as narrow boat driver I see both sides. What would you call a narrow boat skipper who tries to come down the wrong side of the canal or overtake on the wrong side? My guess is that it would be derogatory. That's because you know the rules and he clearly doesn't - and should.

 

It seems to me that guidance for the Thames trip is pretty good - I read most of it myself as I've not done the trip in any form of craft before. However, there seems to be very little about how to conduct yourself in a busy waterway with regards to the Collision Regulations. Some fairy ill informed comments on this thread seem to bear that out as well. So maybe the missing thing here is to give some basic guidance about when to stand on and when to keep clear - note I do not say 'right of way' because that is not the way to view it.

 

To me referring to an amature boater by a derogatory name implies you are superior and therefore you (subconsciously) think you have the right of way no matter what. Edited July 26, 2013 by The Dog House

[blackrose]

If only life was that simple, the Clippers are the fastest thing on the river apart from the big RIB fast trip boats...

 

I think the police RIBs are probably the fastest things. A few years ago one decided to shoot past me on my starboard side at high speed as I was passing under a bridge arch going downstream. It knocked my widebeam about 5ft to port - not a nice experience at all as there was a clipper coming the other way.

 

People shouldn't be put off by these stories though, it's a great trip.

 

[Tacet]

 

I think the police RIBs are probably the fastest things. A few years ago one decided to shoot past me on my starboard side at high speed as I was passing under a bridge arch going downstream. It knocked my widebeam about 5ft to port - not a nice experience at all as there was a clipper coming the other way.

 

 

 

It wasn't a RIB, but a few years ago (2006 I think) a Police Boat came alongside just above Westminster Bridge, asking 20 questions including where had I come from that morning (East Sussex actually, albeit via Regents Canal Dock....) and eventually wanted to board, presumably to check for terrorists. Having satisfied himself, he stepped off towards his boat - and plunged into the Thames.

[Doorman]

Icom are good, recently did my vhf course, had the boat for 18mths! and the guy doing the course told us that Icom supply the test sets at good prices for the trainers so thats what people are happy with and thats what they buy later, Icom are in Kent and apparently their aftersales is fantastic.

He also said new rules coming out that the tester can no longer mark the course work, so another guy needed hence prices are bound to rise.

Lynall

Thanks for this and the other replies.

 

I'll check out the options and see what suits us best.

 

Cheers!

[mrsmelly]

I wonder why (if true) that professional skippers feel the need to refer to amature skippers using derogatory terms.

 

Smacks of arrogance to me, and arrogance has no place on a busy waterway

We do not on the Trent use derogatory terms about other boaters. Some have great experience and show it by allowing us a wide berth etc when needed. The real problem is that so many boaters simply do not have any idea whatsoever how much space we need and just how much harder we are to manouvre than say a 70 foot narrowboat. Also i may have 150 very elderly infirm passengers none of which I can see from the wheelhouse moving around on either deck who even a slight knock when say entering a lock could put them on the floor with possibly very serious consequences. believe it or not quite a lot of hobby sailors actualy believe that " Power gives way to sail " bunkum, irrespective of size, restricted by air draught or draught etc etc and have no conception of colregs.

I wasnt at this incident so as others on here do not have any idea what happened so cannot possibly comment on this case. I was secured in a lock one day last week and a narrowboat entered behind me and smacked me a good un in the stern ( It was his first lock ) no big deal we ALL make mistakes on occasion but Id guess the narrowboat on this occasion did something silly, they very often do. ( Ooops I did comment )

 

Tim

[alan_fincher]

If only life was that simple, the Clippers are the fastest thing on the river apart from the big RIB fast trip boats, their acceleration is much the same as my old Micra on a good day, the analogy is more akin to a fast car weaving all over a motorway and then running into the back of something much slower.

 

 

 

I think the police RIBs are probably the fastest things.

 

I don't know about the Police RIBs, but the RNLI Mk 2 E Class Lifeboats say they can easily reack 40 knots, which I make about 46 MPH!

 

These are scarily fast when one comes past you in a narrow boar with "Blues and twos" going full pelt.

 

I would strongly argue all you do with one of these is hold your current course, and let them decide how they are going to pass you!

[oarfish]

 

I think the police RIBs are probably the fastest things. A few years ago one decided to shoot past me on my starboard side at high speed as I was passing under a bridge arch going downstream. It knocked my widebeam about 5ft to port - not a nice experience at all as there was a clipper coming the other way.

 

People shouldn't be put off by these stories though, it's a great trip.

 

Yes, we really enjoyed it after realising we probably wouldn't die. It's a *bit* disconcerting having your boat rock and roll quite so much at first.

[Ange]

<SNIP> we ALL make mistakes on occasion but Id guess the narrowboat on this occasion did something silly, they very often do. ( Ooops I did comment )

 

Tim

Hey hey Tim - careful of assumptions - we don't know the full facts and I'm still thinking if the big boat smacked the NB up the arse then the big boat wasn't keeping a proper lookout.

 

When I read your post I was minded of the Bowbelle / Marchioness disaster back in 1989. I only remembered vague details of the outcome so did a bit of googling and was quite gobsmacked by this:

 

"In 2001 an inquiry by the Maritime and Coastguard Agency into the competence and behaviour of Captain Henderson concluded that he should be allowed to keep his master's certificate as he met all the service and medical fitness requirements. However, they "strongly deprecated" his conduct in drinking 5 pints of lager in the afternoon prior to the accident and for his admission that he had forged some signatures on certificates and testimonials in order to obtain his master mariner certificate of competency in 1988"

 

So this bloke drank 5 pints of lager then skippered a boat that was involved in a collision which killed 51 people, was found to have fraudulently obtained his competency certificate but still didn't have it taken from him. Instead he was "strongly deprecated"!

 

How barmy is that? And, if the same rules of play are in force, do we still assume it's the fault of the narrowboat and a sober skipper was in charge of the big boat?

 

I know it was a fair while ago and am hoping things have changed.

[RichardN]

Hey hey Tim - careful of assumptions

That's good advice.

 

I am sure that the Marchioness will come to mind, it did to us but just in case someone reads your words too quickly and jumps to the wrong assumption: as far as I am aware there is no evidence that alcohol was involved in last Wednesday's accident

Edited July 27, 2013 by RichardN

[alan_fincher]

 

I am sure that the Marchioness will come to mind, it did to us but just in case someone reads your words too quickly and jumps to the wrong assumption: The trip boat skipper was breathalysed immediately after the accident and passed.

 

I don't think you mean that do you?

 

The skipper of the Marchioness died in the disaster.

 

I assume you are referring to Captain Henderson, Master of the Bow Belle, which was the sand dredger that ran it down?

[RichardN]

Thanks Alan, I had not wanted anyone to read Ange's post too quickly and then jump to the assumption that alcohol was involved on Wednesday.

Edited July 27, 2013 by RichardN

[Naughty Cal]

I wonder why (if true) that professional skippers feel the need to refer to amature skippers using derogatory terms.

 

Smacks of arrogance to me, and arrogance has no place on a busy waterway

Pleasure boaters have arrogant names for each other and other types of pleasure boats.

 

Arrogance has no place on any waterway.

The more accidents that happen like this the more we are going to be forced into some kind of compulsory training before we are allowed onto large commercial waterways, which will be a shame for the majority who manage to navigate these waterways safely and appropriately.

 

In the end the minority will spoil it for the majority.

We do not on the Trent use derogatory terms about other boaters. Some have great experience and show it by allowing us a wide berth etc when needed. The real problem is that so many boaters simply do not have any idea whatsoever how much space we need and just how much harder we are to manouvre than say a 70 foot narrowboat. Also i may have 150 very elderly infirm passengers none of which I can see from the wheelhouse moving around on either deck who even a slight knock when say entering a lock could put them on the floor with possibly very serious consequences. believe it or not quite a lot of hobby sailors actualy believe that " Power gives way to sail " bunkum, irrespective of size, restricted by air draught or draught etc etc and have no conception of colregs.

I wasnt at this incident so as others on here do not have any idea what happened so cannot possibly comment on this case. I was secured in a lock one day last week and a narrowboat entered behind me and smacked me a good un in the stern ( It was his first lock ) no big deal we ALL make mistakes on occasion but Id guess the narrowboat on this occasion did something silly, they very often do. ( Ooops I did comment )

 

Tim

Hmm indeed.

 

First day back on the river yesterday and within minutes we saw our first idiot in a tin slug. Trying to moor with the flow in Boston as they were sluicing water so the flow was strong. He t boned the very expensive Dutch cruiser waiting for the lock causing a lovely dent in the side. There was loads of room and time before hand to turn. Bloke tried to make a run for it without swapping insurance details but that doesn't really work in a narrowboat against a strong flow:)

[Guest]

Pleasure boaters have arrogant names for each other and other types of pleasure boats.

 

Arrogance has no place on any waterway.

The more accidents that happen like this the more we are going to be forced into some kind of compulsory training before we are allowed onto large commercial waterways, which will be a shame for the majority who manage to navigate these waterways safely and appropriately.

 

In the end the minority will spoil it for the majority.

 

But that is making the assumption that the pleasure boater was in some way at fault surely?

 

We don't yet know the circumstances of this particular accident (unless I've missed it in the thread) - for all we know the NB skipper may be entirely blame free and may all be the fault of the commercial skipper, and if so that (to me at least) wouldn't indicate the need for compulsory training of leisure boaters.

 

There seems to be scant info. about this particular incident on the 'net so it's hard to make a judgement just yet I would say.

[Arthur Brown]

It will be interesting to compare this thread to the official accident investigation.

[Naughty Cal]

It will indeed Authur and I for one will be very interested to read it and find out exactly what had happened.

 

I would also be interested to hear what the skippers of both boats have to say about the incident.

[KJT]

_{I agree with the previous posting by larryjc. I would also add that in my experience one needs to behave differently when meeting}

 

Is that a depth charge or a mine you are carrying on your deck?

I'm not surprised he gave you a wide berth.......

[Timleech]

 

But that is making the assumption that the pleasure boater was in some way at fault surely?

 

We don't yet know the circumstances of this particular accident (unless I've missed it in the thread) - for all we know the NB skipper may be entirely blame free and may all be the fault of the commercial skipper, and if so that (to me at least) wouldn't indicate the need for compulsory training of leisure boaters.

 

There seems to be scant info. about this particular incident on the 'net so it's hard to make a judgement just yet I would say.

 

I expect 'those who know' are sensibly keeping quiet pending investigations.

 

Tim