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Yorkshire Gravel Barges - Happier days


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Just to add, although I work on moving aggregates from time to time, and know the difference between dredged and other aggregates, I don't know what makes gravel quality "poor"

Grain size and dust content.

 

"MOT Type 1" , the most popular form of gravel has a grain size of 40mm, down to dust but anything smaller than this is known as "scalpings" or "chatter" and is of significantly lower value.

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This is a very very sad day indeed for me. Just about the last real working boats left on that ( or any ) part of the system. My Dad started work in 1934 carrying gravel and other stuff between Goole and Nottingham and occasionaly on the A and C on his uncles barge, he did this until the outbreak of the war when he spent six years at sea in the merchant navy with all that entailed. then returned to Goole and the barges for a few years.

I am lucky enough to have a fab job plying the Trent through Nottingham on a passenger vessel which is still a working boat as it makes its living carrying passengers and very very busy we are too but with legislation and costs being as it is I often wonder how long it will survive.

 

Tim

When my gran was a little girl she would go and collect the wages on a Friday afternoon, to take to the bargees families, whenever the bargees were away on their boats.

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And late this afternoon Humber Renown came through, unladen - - with a noticable sad and, to be honest, an angry crew.

That's a shame, they are usually a light hearted bunch whom we have occasionally shared a bit of banter with, noticeably when they once clocked our boat's name.

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Okay, from what I can gather:

 

Besthorpe is nearing exhaustion, the gravel has been of poor quality for some time

 

LaFarge merging with tarmac has given access to the adjacent Girton site, however Girton has no barge loading facility and planning restrictions mean that the material can not be taken to Besthorpe for loading

 

Whitwood will close in August:

 

My comments: First, as is often the case it isn't water transport that has failed but the traffic that has ceased

 

I do not know whether any attempt was made to overturn the planning restrictions at Besthorpe

 

The closure of Whitwood is a much bigger blow as it means nowhere to deliver gravel to by water, so future gravel workings may not have water transport as an option

 

Just to add, although I work on moving aggregates from time to time, and know the difference between dredged and other aggregates, I don't know what makes gravel quality "poor"

Not only do the barge owners and crews loose their jobs - the mobile lockies working the Pollington to Castleford stretch will now have no commercial traffic to pass through.

 

Oh, and where was/is the CBOA in all this. Deafeningly quiet as usual I fear .................... !

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All true luckily we still the princess and pride gliding past us weekly I cannot understand the short sighted attitude that road is cheaper than boat that some companies have you have to take pollution into the equation as well/

 

Peter

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As I understand it Humber Pride's contract finished last Autumn and Humber Princess makes twice weekly trips to Rotherham via the SSYN - so that's no work left for the lockies on the A & C.

 

This government (backed by it's profit-led supports: big business) has barely mentioned climate change and the impact of CO2 emmisssions in the last few years nor has it aired its 'green credentials' in any tangible or sensible form that I can recall.

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As I understand it Humber Pride's contract finished last Autumn and Humber Princess makes twice weekly trips to Rotherham via the SSYN - so that's no work left for the lockies on the A & C.

 

This government (backed by it's profit-led supports: big business) has barely mentioned climate change and the impact of CO2 emmisssions in the last few years nor has it aired its 'green credentials' in any tangible or sensible form that I can recall.

 

 

Pride's contract re-started though IIRC - I'm sure it was on here a while ago.

 

I shall have a firtle for it.

 

Nope - must have been wishful thinking. Thinking about it I can't recall seeing Pride west of Syke House junction for yonks.

Edited by The Dog House
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LaFarge merging with tarmac has given access to the adjacent Girton site, however Girton has no barge loading facility and planning restrictions mean that the material can not be taken to Besthorpe for loading

 

 

[....]

 

I do not know whether any attempt was made to overturn the planning restrictions at Besthorpe

 

 

I would imagine that because most of the area between Besthorpe and Girton has now been developed by the Nottinghamshire Wildlife Trust as a nature reserve with the support of Lafarge (as was), and was as a condition of their planning consents, that there isn't a viable route for a conveyor between the two sites anymore. The old haul road is now a series of islands and reedbed, and I very, very much doubt either of the villages would welcome HGV traffic if it was shuttled by road.

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Interesting to hear that gravel extraction around the Trent is slowing. On our last trip down the Nene (which is laced with old and current gravel pits) I saw a least three new sites being opened-up for extraction. Maybe the centre-of-gravity is moving south, like it is for everything else?

 

 

 

MP.

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Not only do the barge owners and crews loose their jobs - the mobile lockies working the Pollington to Castleford stretch will now have no commercial traffic to pass through.

 

Oh, and where was/is the CBOA in all this. Deafeningly quiet as usual I fear .................... !

 

Okay, a company decides not to transport goods by water from A to Z because the supply at A has run out. They find a new source of the same commodity, but it doesn't have barge access, so they end the contract and take it by road.

 

Exactly what are the CBOA in particular supposed to do about this? Form a militant picket and insist that sub-standard material that has little value is carried anyway so the barge traffic doesn't stop? Invest in giant catapults to overcome the access problem?

 

One thing I can confirm is that most barge operators in the Humber area, and CBOA in that area, work very hard trying to gain and keep carrying contracts. I will repeat, this traffic has ceased, as most traffics cease, because the current source of traffic closed and a new source had no access to the river

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Okay, a company decides not to transport goods by water from A to Z because the supply at A has run out. They find a new source of the same commodity, but it doesn't have barge access, so they end the contract and take it by road.

 

Exactly what are the CBOA in particular supposed to do about this? Form a militant picket and insist that sub-standard material that has little value is carried anyway so the barge traffic doesn't stop? Invest in giant catapults to overcome the access problem?

 

One thing I can confirm is that most barge operators in the Humber area, and CBOA in that area, work very hard trying to gain and keep carrying contracts. I will repeat, this traffic has ceased, as most traffics cease, because the current source of traffic closed and a new source had no access to the river

 

 

A few facts:

 

When the OP passed the Battlestone and Fusedale on the afternoon of Wednesday 24th July, news of the closure of the Whitwood Wharf and therefore the ending of the Besthorpe - Whitwood gravel traffic had only just been announced, possibly less than an hour previously.

 

I was telephoned the following morning by John Branford - who operates 3 boats on this run and co-ordinates the remaining vessels - with the whole sorry story. The first he knew that the final load was to be delivered on Wednesday 31st July - just seven days hence - was via a phone call from the local Lafarge Tarmac manager on Wednesday afternoon. To say that he was still in a state of shock when he phoned me would be an understatement. From time to time I crew for him on that run and we are both absolutely gutted.

 

The explanation he was given was that the current 'Whitwood Operation' was making a loss as 4/5th of the aggregate landed there is forwarded by wagon to other, local Lafarge concrete batching plants. So just one fifth of the aggregate landed at Whitwood is used on site, in their own concrete plant (which is to remain open, supplied by road) while the remainder is forwarded to the four other plants. It appears that this double handling is the main financial stumbling block. At no point in the conversation with the Lafarge manger was the quality of the material at Besthorpe Quarry mentioned, nor that Girton was to be a replacment for the material running out at Besthorpe ............. which as far as anyone knows - isn't!!.

 

Over a very considerable number of years John has operated a range of craft for Lafarge and their predecessors from various pits up and down the Trent, landing the aggregates in Leeds before Whitwood came on stream. Previously he carried glassmaking sands to Knottingley and when a riverside pit closed, he briefly (and reluctantly) went into the road haulage business simply to keep the sand traffic going. This is quite a testiment to his comittment to water transport and it represents an immense loyalty to the company he has carried for over a considerable number of years. To be repaid for this with seven days notice of cessation of carriage is a very poor reward indeed, and altogether pretty shabby treatment.

 

It is ironic that in a conversation, only a month or so earlier, with the same manager tasked with breaking Wednesday's news, John was reassured that his operation looked very secure (backed up by new investment at Whitwood) - although said manager was very nervous about keeping his job in the light of the recent Lafarge - Tarmac merger.

 

As anyone out on the NE waterways will testify, John keeps his three boats - Humber Renown, Farndale and Fossdale - in beautifull condition and invests heavily in their upkeep. He is continually chasing new cargoes but shortage of wharfage and the demand for carriage at an unrealistic rate are constant impediments.

 

Whilst John - who has been a skipper for more than 50 years - is 3 years past retirement age, he is anxious to maintain the family barging business for his son who now represents the fourth generation of bargemen. In the past quarry management have always showed a willingness to involve John in any negotiations from setting tonnage rates, through general problem solving, to the design of wharfage - indeed he helped design the set up at Whitwood.

 

It will indeed be a great pity if the directors of Lafarge Tarmac continue with the "there is nothing to discuss" attitude when presented with the opportunity of a meeting to examine possible ways to compromise in resolving this issue.

  • Greenie 1
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A few facts:

 

When the OP passed the Battlestone and Fusedale on the afternoon of Wednesday 24th July, news of the closure of the Whitwood Wharf and therefore the ending of the Besthorpe - Whitwood gravel traffic had only just been announced, possibly less than an hour previously.

 

I was telephoned the following morning by John Branford - who operates 3 boats on this run and co-ordinates the remaining vessels - with the whole sorry story. The first he knew that the final load was to be delivered on Wednesday 31st July - just seven days hence - was via a phone call from the local Lafarge Tarmac manager on Wednesday afternoon. To say that he was still in a state of shock when he phoned me would be an understatement. From time to time I crew for him on that run and we are both absolutely gutted.

 

The explanation he was given was that the current 'Whitwood Operation' was making a loss as 4/5th of the aggregate landed there is forwarded by wagon to other, local Lafarge concrete batching plants. So just one fifth of the aggregate landed at Whitwood is used on site, in their own concrete plant (which is to remain open, supplied by road) while the remainder is forwarded to the four other plants. It appears that this double handling is the main financial stumbling block. At no point in the conversation with the Lafarge manger was the quality of the material at Besthorpe Quarry mentioned, nor that Girton was to be a replacment for the material running out at Besthorpe ............. which as far as anyone knows - isn't!!.

 

Over a very considerable number of years John has operated a range of craft for Lafarge and their predecessors from various pits up and down the Trent, landing the aggregates in Leeds before Whitwood came on stream. Previously he carried glassmaking sands to Knottingley and when a riverside pit closed, he briefly (and reluctantly) went into the road haulage business simply to keep the sand traffic going. This is quite a testiment to his comittment to water transport and it represents an immense loyalty to the company he has carried for over a considerable number of years. To be repaid for this with seven days notice of cessation of carriage is a very poor reward indeed, and altogether pretty shabby treatment.

 

It is ironic that in a conversation, only a month or so earlier, with the same manager tasked with breaking Wednesday's news, John was reassured that his operation looked very secure (backed up by new investment at Whitwood) - although said manager was very nervous about keeping his job in the light of the recent Lafarge - Tarmac merger.

 

As anyone out on the NE waterways will testify, John keeps his three boats - Humber Renown, Farndale and Fossdale - in beautifull condition and invests heavily in their upkeep. He is continually chasing new cargoes but shortage of wharfage and the demand for carriage at an unrealistic rate are constant impediments.

 

Whilst John - who has been a skipper for more than 50 years - is 3 years past retirement age, he is anxious to maintain the family barging business for his son who now represents the fourth generation of bargemen. In the past quarry management have always showed a willingness to involve John in any negotiations from setting tonnage rates, through general problem solving, to the design of wharfage - indeed he helped design the set up at Whitwood.

 

It will indeed be a great pity if the directors of Lafarge Tarmac continue with the "there is nothing to discuss" attitude when presented with the opportunity of a meeting to examine possible ways to compromise in resolving this issue.

 

I'm aware of how short notice this was because of my contacts, which include John Banford.

 

I aimed to provide the information that people wanted without risking disclosing information that was not in the public domain, I've got plenty of the latter and as is the often case was unsure of what I knew that wasn't for public consumption. You chose to turn it into a dig at CBOA for not doing enough: they had as little notice as anyone else.

 

I agree with your sentiments of Lafarge/Tarmac but don't just assume that because CBOA and others are saying nothing that they are doing nothing. Things can and do happen behind the scenes and are often "commercial in confidence". That includes not saying who I've asked about it.

 

I think most people would vote for me saying what I know I can say rather than saying nothing, and in issues like this rants are not helpful.

 

ETA your information is different to mine regarding quality and problems at Whitwood, on the quality one I knew Besthorpe had about five years left lets see.... five years ago? Research as part of trying to promote freight on the Trent.

Edited by magpie patrick
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Not only do the barge owners and crews loose their jobs - the mobile lockies working the Pollington to Castleford stretch will now have no commercial traffic to pass through.

 

Oh, and where was/is the CBOA in all this. Deafeningly quiet as usual I fear .................... !

 

A 'dig' yes ............... but a 'rant' no!

 

But thank you at least for, in part, answering my question.

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A 'dig' yes ............... but a 'rant' no!

 

But thank you at least for, in part, answering my question.

 

Following on from what Patrick has said, the reason CBOA has not immediately responded is partly because I was away on holiday without access to the internet when the news broke and partly because I wanted to be sure of my facts and what could be said in the public domain. But even on holiday my phone has been 'red hot' with calls from operators (including John Branford), CRT and others). It is indeed a very sad time for operators, myself especially as I set up the traffic in the first place, in 1981, as consultant to Steetleys - initially it was from the new pit at Rampton to Knottingley wharf, later to Goodman Street, Leeds (where the existing operator was taken over), and for the last ten years or so to Whitwood - latterly from Besthorpe as Rampton was closed when exhausted.

 

It's also frustrating for CRT as considerable sums had just been spent dredging the River Calder at Methley following recent flood conditions, and no doubt for CBOA members Lafarge-Tarmac who have always been proud of promoting water transport.

 

It would be inappropriate to go into detail or to speculate on Lafarge's commercial policies which have led to this decision as they are private matters for the company, but it is the understanding of CBOA and CRT from what Lafarge have told us that the ready-mix plant at Whitwood will be closing in August, and as that was the underpinning tonnage which made handling of material for other sites viable there would be no business case for retaining the wharf, even with DfT grant, given the relatively low volumes left due to the recession. I am hoping to arrange a joint CRT / Lafarge meeting so we can understand the situation better, but always respecting Lafarge's commercial position. Maybe the door will open for future barge deliveries if, for example, Lafarge open another quarry on the Trent.

 

Turning to a few points raised: government support for water and rail is supportive, with Operating Grants available (MSRS) - these are based on taking heavy goods vehicles off the roads - and are greater if the roads are not motorways (unless congested sections are involved) because DfT considers 'that is what motorways are for'. Lafarge had benefited from a very large capital. (FFG) grant to build Whitwood wharf and to obtain and convert a barge, while another carrier had a grant for two further craft. (This is in the public domain).

 

I think it is important to mention that Lafarge have stressed that they have been very well served both by the barge operators and by British Waterways / CRT and that the traffic is not ceasing due to any fault on either party.

 

The Tarmac Girton pit referred to is a relatively new one and is not on the same site as the one where we recall barges loading for Hull. The Hull aggregate market is now well served by local quarries and sea dredged material and so Trent aggregate is not competitive (CBOA assisted with some trial loads from Besthorpe a couple of years ago). Tarmac also have a pit just above Cromwell lock, but this mainly serves the Nottingham area and there is no wharf facility though one was mooted.

 

At its height Whitwood wharf was handling up to 5000 tonnes/week - two barges or so per day - but with the recession this had dropped very considerably, even to as low as 1000 tonnes/week a while back - but more recently this was rising again. Battlestone (Lafarge's own craft) generally made three trips / fortnight or two a week even and always had first choice as might be expected, but at times of low demand the other barges might only make as little as one or two trips a month. This had recently picked up and barges were doing about three trips a month on average of late..

 

The comment on Besthorpe gravel quality was made to me by a barge operator.

 

We understand that the Pollington Dalkia project has stalled for the moment due to funding issues.

 

CBOA is arranging a joint meeting shortly with operators and CRT to discuss what happens next - especially in light of the impending freight policy which the CRT freight group is working on diligently (to be launched, hopefully, at a Leeds or Hull water freight conference in the new year). Meanwhile CBOA /CRT in the NE is working with potential water freight customers and port operators to try and secure some business for the carriers and their craft as soon as possible, but it would be quite wrong to go into more detail. However it's fair to say there does seem to be considerable scope for imported goods into the Leeds region in particular, including containers (which would need specialised craft building to suit the A&CN slightly narrow locks and slightly lower bridges than continental standard) and also for sea dredged aggregate. Various sites for a Leeds inland terminal have been inspected.

 

I hope the above is of interest and helps clarify the position.

 

Kind regards

 

David L

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Thank you for the supporting comments. I was informed today that Besthorpe pit has a few more years life left, but planning permission expires December 2014 and will need renewing vy 'variation' to extend the life another 2-3 years.. Unlike Rampton there is no requirement to use water transport - indeed it appears that current planning permission seems to specify at least 40% of production will go out by road which is rather at odds with government policy though traffic going north must be routed via Dunham bridge. We are asking whether the barge loading conveyor will be kept available for use. Maybe planners will insist on a percentage going out by water (and maybe groups and individuals will make this point to Notts planners). Of course it depends where Besthorpe material is to go - it is possible that Lafarge-Tarmac can now supply West Yorkshire from elsewhere e.g. by rail from Derbyshire.

Regards

David L.

Edited by fanshaft
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P7305530.JPG

FarndaleH in CastlefordCut returning from the last delivery of the contract on 30July2013. And here lying at WhitwoodWharf the previous day

P7297094.JPG

and ready to discharge there in April2010

P4084244.JPG

A set of pictures here from our occasional trips on the RiverCalder 2006-2013

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  • 1 month later...

Thanks for posting this Mike - it brought back memories for us - we saw Fusedale passing Battlestone in Castleford cut (08:50 on the vid)

 

Rather emotional

 

nice video

 

- a pity it didn't start a bit earlier or it would have caught us on our mooring just before Pollington Lock.

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