Moley Posted October 12, 2006 Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 Tony's tales of hiring Richmond Too have started me thinking. My first time on the rivers and canals was around '81 or '82 when a tribe of us from Wolverhampton Poly went off for a week's ‘field trip’. I can't remember what it was in aid of, or how it was relevant to our course, but we were quite a large group, on a working pair converted to basic dormitories (lads in the motor, girls in the butty, and never the twain shall meet). We went out from Foxton and had a week on the Trent and T&M. I think it was with Foxton Boat Services. The motor may have been called Foxton The butty was ‘Virginis’ but that name doesn't show on Jim Shead. Anybody got any ideas? Will see if I can dig out some old pics, but then I have to find some way of scanning 35mm slides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan_fincher Posted October 12, 2006 Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 (edited) Tony's tales of hiring Richmond Too have started me thinking. My first time on the rivers and canals was around '81 or '82 when a tribe of us from Wolverhampton Poly went off for a week's ‘field trip’. I can't remember what it was in aid of, or how it was relevant to our course, but we were quite a large group, on a working pair converted to basic dormitories (lads in the motor, girls in the butty, and never the twain shall meet). We went out from Foxton and had a week on the Trent and T&M. I think it was with Foxton Boat Services. The motor may have been called Foxton The butty was ‘Virginis’ but that name doesn't show on Jim Shead. Anybody got any ideas? Will see if I can dig out some old pics, but then I have to find some way of scanning 35mm slides. "Coleshill" (Motor) & "Virginis" (Butty) are certainly a possible pairing that worked for Foxton Boat Services. I'm not sure of current fate, but believe this may be the pair that were both pulled out of the water and on the bank at Foxton, in a "non working" state. Maybe they still are ? Someone will know. I'm trying to thing of other boats Foxton may have operated back then. I know they had a motor boat that was one of the "Town" class that began with a "B", I think. Problem is an awful lot of them did. "Bletchley", possibly ?? Edit *** Coleshill and Virginis feature in pictures on Mike Steven's site, such as Link to Mike Stevens "Virginis" picture or this Another link with 2 pictures Edited October 12, 2006 by alan_fincher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeELL Posted October 12, 2006 Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 Moley, I've PM'd you about the slides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moley Posted October 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 Thanks both, have found my old trannies, now need to find a good glass to see if I can find a name on the motor. Will try to scan in the morning (if our scanner will co-operate). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidandheather Posted October 12, 2006 Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 Hi Coleshill and virginis are still on the bank at foxton on the side of the new road to the pub. They still both look in pretty good nick David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moley Posted October 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 Well, I can't see a name on any picture of the Motor. Scanner actually worked first time, for a change. ... and the drivers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan_fincher Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 Those are excellent scans, if from 35mm negatives. I assume it's a dedicated scanner, rather than an attachment to a flat bed document scanner ? I'm not enough of an anorak (quite!), to know if that motor is Coleshill, or not. All I can say is it's the "right type", (namely a "Woolwich" type rather than a "Northwich" type boat). So it would be named after a "town" with it's initial letter somewhere in roughly the "A" to "H" part of the alphabet, (the "Northwich" boats being mainly the letters after this). Pretty sure there will be people on here who know what boats that Foxton Boat Services would actually have been operating in the early 80s. Or can identify from placement of vents on the motor roof what type of engine it had, and hence maybe the boat. (Yes, honestly!...) My brother would possibly know. If I ever catch up with him again, I'll try and remember to ask! Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul H Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 For many years Foxton Boat Services used to operate 5 camping boats: Motors: Bletchley, Baldock and Coleshill and butties: Argus and Virginis. They did azcquire other boats (Corolla and Crux spring to mind) but I don't think they were ever operational. I remember Baldock and Virginis operating together in the late 1970s but this may well have changed to Coleshill by the early 1980s. Baldock is now converted and was moored near Bristol, Bletchley and Argus operate as coal boats with a new owner and Coleshill and Virginis are up on the bank derelict at Foxton. As they are out of the water and have been for many years they are not licenced and therefore not on Jim Shead's site. There is a 1973 picture of Baldock and Virginis in the book Narrow Boats at Work which is not very distinct but appears to show the exhaust stack in a different position to that on Moley's boat and a pigeon box instead of a flat hatch. So my money would be on "his" boat being Coleshill. Tony and Mary Matts are still at FBS at Foxton. Otherwise Julia Cook who used to steer the Virginis is worth asking - she is usually found at Stoke Bruerne sometimes working in the museum. Hope this helps. Paul H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moley Posted October 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 Those are excellent scans, if from 35mm negatives.I assume it's a dedicated scanner, rather than an attachment to a flat bed document scanner ? Thanks, they are from 35mm slides, and it's an A3 flat bed scanner with toplight (serious mother though ) Those scans are nothing special, medium res, 500%, no colour correction, bang bang bang (and that was far too big, cropped and downsized). Quick bit of mental maths and I reckon I could scan a 35mm neg or tran to about 1.2 Gigapixels, and show grain. For many years Foxton Boat Services used to operate 5 camping boats:I remember Baldock and Virginis operating together in the late 1970s but this may well have changed to Coleshill by the early 1980s. Tony and Mary Matts are still at FBS at Foxton. Otherwise Julia Cook who used to steer the Virginis is worth asking - she is usually found at Stoke Bruerne sometimes working in the museum. Thanks Paul, a good reply Think I might look up FBS's email and send them this link, and maybe have a drive over some time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidandheather Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 if you come over to foxton give us a shout aswe moor 10 mins away by boat David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan_fincher Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 (edited) Thanks, they are from 35mm slides, and it's an A3 flat bed scanner with toplight (serious mother though ) Those scans are nothing special, medium res, 500%, no colour correction, bang bang bang (and that was far too big, cropped and downsized). Quick bit of mental maths and I reckon I could scan a 35mm neg or tran to about 1.2 Gigapixels, and show grain. Well you clearly know your stuff in this area. I just bung them in the scanner and pray!. Not of the same quality, and from an earlier date, here are a couple we took of one of the Foxton Boat Services "Town Class" motors back in 1973, (I think !). Although I can't actually read the name on the side, I'm fairly certain this was "Bletchley", and the name looks to short to be "Baldock" to me. I'm sure it's not Coleshill, which, incidentally was one of the ones that had spent a time dumped at the end of the Wendover Arm, after BW repossesed the Willow Wren operated boats. (These were all stripped and vandalised there, before finally passing on to carriers like Foxton, or outfits like the then fledgling Narrow Boat Trust). Both the following shots are above Buckby top lock. We are on the boat "Bexhill" the top cloths of which can be seen in the second photo, (along with my fairly scruffy brother!). Bexhill was also operated as a camping boat, but in this case by Union Canal Carriers. Although normally paired then with the butty "Brighton", (now with the Narrow Boat Trust), for some reason UCC decided to let us loose on it as lone hirers. We had just had a failed attempt to do the Leicester loop in a week, (due to severe water shortages up towards Leicester), so had turned round and made other plans by the time of this photo. A few days previously we had passed that Foxton boat, whilst heading north, on a very sticky stretch of the Leicester, and it was them rather than us that had ended stemmed up on that occasion. (I'm sure somewhere I have a black and white photo of it it well aground). Ah, the joys of "real" boats!.... Edited October 13, 2006 by alan_fincher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris-B Posted November 9, 2006 Report Share Posted November 9, 2006 Just had a very interesting look at the photos, Lise and I purchased Baldock in July this year and she is now back in Uxbridge A full length conversion was put on in the 90's as far as I can get information this was done by one of the "Wilson" family ( possibly), she still has the same engine that Sam Matts ( Foxton Boat Services) put in when they owned it We are currently catching up with a backlog of maintenance/repairs and hope to her back to a better state by next year. If anybody has any photos or information we would be very interested and will happily pay any cost's involved Many thanks in advance Chris Bennett N.B. Baldock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairy-Neil Posted November 9, 2006 Report Share Posted November 9, 2006 (edited) ......... before finally passing on to carriers like Foxton, or outfits like the then fledgling Narrow Boat Trust). And Union Canal Carriers of Braunston too. The story goes they tendered for several boats, hoping to get a pair and found when the tenders were opened that they got the lot. ....... outfits like the then fledgling Narrow Boat Trust). I understand they are still fledgling...... The other B's were Baldock Banstead Badsey Barnet Bainton Bath Battersea Beaulieu Barnham Belfast Bexhill Bicester Bilster Bognor Birmingham Bournmouth Bristol Buckden Barrow Buxton Edited November 9, 2006 by Hairy-Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicky Posted November 9, 2006 Report Share Posted November 9, 2006 Coleshill & Virginis are still at Foxton if you're interested, my dad saw last night when taking Cragdale back there What is it you want to know? My brother is at Foxton at the moment so can ask Tony if you want any info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris-B Posted November 9, 2006 Report Share Posted November 9, 2006 Coleshill & Virginis are still at Foxton if you're interested, my dad saw last night when taking Cragdale back there What is it you want to know? My brother is at Foxton at the moment so can ask Tony if you want any info Thanks , I spoke to Tony the other week about Baldock ( I know him through the Day job ) he said he would try to look some photos up for us What I am looking for was anyone who had photos in their own collection of Baldock either in working trim or converted we are trying to build up a history of the boat Many thanks Chris B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan_fincher Posted November 9, 2006 Report Share Posted November 9, 2006 Although I can't actually read the name on the side, I'm fairly certain this was "Bletchley", and the name looks to short to be "Baldock" to me. I'm sure it's not Coleshill, which, incidentally was one of the ones that had spent a time dumped at the end of the Wendover Arm, after BW repossesed the Willow Wren operated boats. (These were all stripped and vandalised there, before finally passing on to carriers like Foxton, or outfits like the then fledgling Narrow Boat Trust). And Union Canal Carriers of Braunston too. The story goes they tendered for several boats, hoping to get a pair and found when the tenders were opened that they got the lot. Neil, There must have been several batches of Wendover boats then, because none of the 12 to 15 that were down there that I crawled over ended up with Union Canal Carriers, (who already had a very large fleet at the time). Some of the batch I saw did go to Threefellows Carrying though, for similar use. I heard another story about tendering for obsolete BW boats, that is similar to your one about Union Canal Carriers ending up with more boats than they bargained for. My one would have been from a few years earlier. When I worked as a Saturday job for Wyvern Shipping Company back in the 1970s, quite a lot of their fleet were working boat conversions. They included two of the "Middle-Yarwoods" boats that had not been particularly successful for carrying, and which had at some point been shortened to 40 foot tug / icebreakers. These were Theophilus and Sextans, (the latter of which Wyvern renamed Hesperus - can't think why!). Apparently they had tendered "a realistic amount" for one, and a token £5 for the other. They were the only bidder, and with no reserve, they got both. I must say, wouldn't mind an-ex GUCCCo boat for a fiver, even if only 40 foot of it! Unfortunately by the time of the final "Wendover Arm boats", such bargains had ended. A £500 bid on the shell of "Belfast", failed to deliver for us. (But I'm not sure any of those went to individuals, rather than companies, trusts, or societies). Chris, I'm not sure any of the older photos I have are of Baldock - I'm pretty certain what I've posted here is Bletchley, (but not absolutely certain). I would love to see some of her now though, if you have them. Alan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris-B Posted November 9, 2006 Report Share Posted November 9, 2006 Chris, I'm not sure any of the older photos I have are of Baldock - I'm pretty certain what I've posted here is Bletchley, (but not absolutely certain). I would love to see some of her now though, if you have them. Alan. Alan' These three were take in July this year on the "home run" from Saltford Marina to Uxbridge where we moor normally The paintwork is quite faded and tatty hence hopefully next year a repaint All the best Chris and Lise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairy-Neil Posted November 9, 2006 Report Share Posted November 9, 2006 The Sextans was in recent years, lengthened somewhat but still only to about 50 foot. I believe it now has some of the side plates that were removed from the Thea, Theophilus' original butty paring, when she was shortened and motorised in the early ninties. The plates are fitted "wrong" side and are noticable by the wear on the rivets..... At the same time a replica Northwich riveted cabin was fitted and has made a very attractive boat. Last I saw of the Theophilus it was a houseboat at Little Venice and looking very run down and neglected. Another of Wyvern's boats was the Hazel a wooden butty, it was motorised with a stern tube drilled through the stern post and anti-cavitation plates attached to the sides of the shortened rudder. Hazel was the second from last boat built by Nurser/Barlows at Braunston, the last of course being the Bray's Raymond. It also became a houseboat, but on the Erewash Canal near Trent Lock, where it sank on its morings in the early nineties and recieved a section notice. Rescued, some repairs were undertaken on the dock at Langley Mill before it changed hands and headed north. I last saw it a couple of years ago at Runcorn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairy-Neil Posted November 9, 2006 Report Share Posted November 9, 2006 (edited) Wyvern also had an old converted iron icebreaker called Princess IIRC. Edited November 9, 2006 by Hairy-Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlt Posted November 9, 2006 Report Share Posted November 9, 2006 The Sextans was in recent years, lengthened somewhat but still only to about 50 foot. I believe it now has some of the side plates that were removed from the Thea, Theophilus' original butty paring, when she was shortened and motorised in the early ninties. The plates are fitted "wrong" side and are noticable by the wear on the rivets..... At the same time a replica Northwich riveted cabin was fitted and has made a very attractive boat. Last I saw of the Theophilus it was a houseboat at Little Venice and looking very run down and neglected. Another of Wyvern's boats was the Hazel a wooden butty, it was motorised with a stern tube drilled through the stern post and anti-cavitation plates attached to the sides of the shortened rudder. Hazel was the second from last boat built by Nurser/Barlows at Braunston, the last of course being the Bray's Raymond. It also became a houseboat, but on the Erewash Canal near Trent Lock, where it sank on its morings in the early nineties and recieved a section notice. Rescued, some repairs were undertaken on the dock at Langley Mill before it changed hands and headed north. I last saw it a couple of years ago at Runcorn. The hesperus is actually a star class Ricky (wooden), subsequently owned by dave blagrove. It is currently at bugbrooke and for sale (£4k ono, if anyone fancies a good unconverted wooden motor I can pass on details). Hazel is still at runcorn with a full cabin conversion she is also for sale at the moment, I don't know the price but I can find out. I would dispute the fact that she was the second last wooden boat built at braunston as both she, raymond and irene were rebuilt boats on recycled knees. I regularly have this argument with Raymond apologists who want the best of both worlds. Raymond has now been completely rebuilt twice though the trust claim she was a new boat in 58 but a faithful restoration now. Rant over, Wyvern also had nutfield, now dragging raymond III about (just let it go carl) and Victoria, an absolutely beautiful Nurser motor sitting on the bank at jem bates' yard just begging to be rebuilt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Posted November 9, 2006 Report Share Posted November 9, 2006 Am I reading that right.. £4k ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlt Posted November 9, 2006 Report Share Posted November 9, 2006 (edited) Am I reading that right.. £4k ? Yes I thought it was a bit steep but it does have a lovely two pot ruston in the engine room. Edited to say: Of course if you think it's too cheap I'm sure he can be persuaded to amend his price upwards. Edited November 9, 2006 by carlt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan_fincher Posted November 9, 2006 Report Share Posted November 9, 2006 Wyvern also had an old converted iron icebreaker called Princess IIRC. Absolutely correct ! A lethal thing, the hull being about 1/2" thick wrought iron all over, and shaped at the bows rather like the axe I use for chopping fire-wood. At the time I worked there, the converted (rather than purpose built boats) were... Hazel - 70 foot wooden Nurser butty conversion, as Neil describes. 'Hesperus' (formerly Sextans) and Theophilus - 40 ft GUCCo Middle Northwich, (bought cut down). Princess - the icebreaker 45 foot, but otherwise I don't remember the history. And 'Bridget' and 'Olive' - these were former Severn & Canal Carrying Company narrowboats, built by Charles Hill in the 1930s, (and originally unusual because of their all welded construction, and because boatmans cabin and living quarters were reversed). These were shortened to 54 feet (I think) and would have had "tree" names originally, but I don't recall which each of this pair started life as. Olive retained part of it's original cabin, whereas Bridget did not. All would have had the then standard Wyvern feature of a galvanised long flat water tank on the roof, with all water gravity fed, rather than by pump. (That was the sophistication of hire-boating 30 plus years ago!.) Using these type of boats inevitably made life harder for the hirers. To get the back end of some of these boats far enough in the water, they must have drawn 2 ft 6" to 3 ft - a lot more than the purpose built ones. But the Middle Northwich ones handled beautifully, and would turn a complete circle in one go in a standard winding hole, if you got it right. (Their drawback was having rounded chines, and slight vee bottom, they rolled badly - to the extent that the cookers had sea-going style fiddle rails around the hob). And, because Hazel had it's original butty rudder, it was incredibly vulnerable to lock cills. I can well remember having to help unship the bugger so that attempts could be made to hammer the pivots back into shape, ready for the next set of hirers to try and bend again. The Hazel that Wyvern had is NOT the one referred to in the following web-link. (Wyverns one was definitely a Nurser boat built several decades after the one referred to here). Link to Hazel page. I'm not sure, but wonder if that was the one you guys were discussing ? (But admit I'm out of my depth, when it comes to the wooden article.....) And finally (back on topic, at last!) Chris Great to see those photos - she looks fantastic. Regards, Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlt Posted November 10, 2006 Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 Absolutely correct ! A lethal thing, the hull being about 1/2" thick wrought iron all over, and shaped at the bows rather like the axe I use for chopping fire-wood. At the time I worked there, the converted (rather than purpose built boats) were... Hazel - 70 foot wooden Nurser butty conversion, as Neil describes. 'Hesperus' (formerly Sextans) and Theophilus - 40 ft GUCCo Middle Northwich, (bought cut down). Princess - the icebreaker 45 foot, but otherwise I don't remember the history. And 'Bridget' and 'Olive' - these were former Severn & Canal Carrying Company narrowboats, built by Charles Hill in the 1930s, (and originally unusual because of their all welded construction, and because boatmans cabin and living quarters were reversed). These were shortened to 54 feet (I think) and would have had "tree" names originally, but I don't recall which each of this pair started life as. Olive retained part of it's original cabin, whereas Bridget did not. All would have had the then standard Wyvern feature of a galvanised long flat water tank on the roof, with all water gravity fed, rather than by pump. (That was the sophistication of hire-boating 30 plus years ago!.) Using these type of boats inevitably made life harder for the hirers. To get the back end of some of these boats far enough in the water, they must have drawn 2 ft 6" to 3 ft - a lot more than the purpose built ones. But the Middle Northwich ones handled beautifully, and would turn a complete circle in one go in a standard winding hole, if you got it right. (Their drawback was having rounded chines, and slight vee bottom, they rolled badly - to the extent that the cookers had sea-going style fiddle rails around the hob). And, because Hazel had it's original butty rudder, it was incredibly vulnerable to lock cills. I can well remember having to help unship the bugger so that attempts could be made to hammer the pivots back into shape, ready for the next set of hirers to try and bend again. The Hazel that Wyvern had is NOT the one referred to in the following web-link. (Wyverns one was definitely a Nurser boat built several decades after the one referred to here). Link to Hazel page. I'm not sure, but wonder if that was the one you guys were discussing ? (But admit I'm out of my depth, when it comes to the wooden article.....) And finally (back on topic, at last!) Chris Great to see those photos - she looks fantastic. Regards, Alan Hi alan. No the nurser butty is definitely at Runcorn. The confusion is that the WCBS's Hazel is the (believed) last runcorn wooden header left. The headers being big wooden posts instead of iron t-studs for towing. She was at runcorn for a long time with (nurser) hazel but the WCBS moved her some time ago to begin restoration work. Interesting about the hesperus because the one I was referring to is a full length unconverted wooden motor which I had always assumed to be the hesperus quoted as belonging to wyvern. Going completely off topic, I have always had a soft spot for the hesperus because, in my younger days, I was a punk and my gran always used to say "My God, you look like the wreck of the hesperus!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairy-Neil Posted November 10, 2006 Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 Yes, I'll second that. Barlows Hazel was definitely at Runcorn in october 2004 when I passed on a hire boat. IIRC it was at Langley Mill around 1993 - 94. I knew the owner and made quite a close inspection, both on the dry dock and the internal arrangements. I think it had no engine at that poing. I vaguely remember the gravity tank. The hull was then in fairly good condition with the exception of one or two planks at the stern on the left side. I believe only temporary repairs were carried out in that ownership. The same family, then owned the GUCCC butty Meteor and later purchased and restored the Banstead (of The Bargee film fame) to run with it as a camping pair, having run for a couple of seasons with Chiswick (noteworthy for the book by Tim Wilkinson ‘Hold On A Minute) as a joint venture with her owners. They used to have a website but I can't find trace of it now. Interesting about the hesperus because the one I was referring to is a full length unconverted wooden motor which I had always assumed to be the hesperus quoted as belonging to wyvern. The wooden Ricky motor Hesperus has some good history too. Renamed "New Hope", it was Tom Foxton's motor boat, subject of his book "Number One", which detailed his boating career as an owner boater in the early 1950's. In latter years as its fortunes have declined it came to be nicknamed "No Hope" Previous to Tom Foxton it was a pleasure boat belonging to Lord Lucan, (father of the missing Earl) and during this ownership was one of the last boats to pass through the Kennet and Avon Canal before its closure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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