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Limehouse to Teddington


larryjc

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I'd be interested on the collective wisdom on this epic voyage. I had a long chat with the lock keeper at Limehouse yesterday as well as the Port of London guys. I was more than a little surprised to hear that there are no published estimates of tidal stream speed on the flood up the river, even a difference between springs and neaps. The best I got was 'between 2 and 4 knots' depending on which bit of the bend you are in and depth of water. I reckon its about 21 miles plus the Richmond lock so if I leave Limehouse at 2 1/2 hours after low water, which is when the lock keeper said was the earliest he would open up, I've got about 3 1/2 hours and need therefore to do almost 7 knots. My old bus struggles to reach four knots so I need three up the chuff - is this feasible? Should I plan a stop at Brentford. Any advice gratefully received.

 

On a different but related topic does anyone know if there is a pub called the Flying Swan in Brentford and is it managed by a part time barman called Neville? you might know why I ask if you read the same author as me.

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Just have a look at http://www.thamescruising.co.uk - it has links to all the previously publicised information which seemed to go walkabout during the transition from BW to CRT. The Tidal flow will make it feel like an elevator when you look at the speed you are going over the ground and when bridges come up. It is a really exciting trip and well worth doing. Listen to everything the lockies at Limehouse say (particularly Jeremey) - they base their knowledge on experience.

Edited by Leo No2
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Ah thanks for the links - just what I wanted. When I went to the Nicholson suggested sites there was little there and it only talks about Limehouse to Brentford.

 

I really like the check - make sure you turn right when leaving Limehouse!!

 

The Flying Swan???

Edited by larryjc
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The timings in the guide are pretty close, and very easily achievable.

 

Last time I did the trip, we left at the earliest possibility in a boat that could only do about 2mph without overheating, and we were almost at Richmond before we lost the tide. Those last couple of miles took us forever and it was getting rather "dusk" but we made it with only a small increase in throttle (watching the temperature gauge carefully) after a journey of about 6 hours

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Ah thanks for the links - just what I wanted. When I went to the Nicholson suggested sites there was little there and it only talks about Limehouse to Brentford.I really like the check - make sure you turn right when leaving Limehouse!!The Flying Swan???

It's much more fun to turn left and go to Gravesend.

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The Flying Swan was allegedly based on a pub called the Bricklayers Arms, which, sadly, is no more.

 

However, the enterprising (and literate) young landlady of the Magpie and Crown is a fellow fan of Rankin, and she names her guest ales after beers from the books.

 

The Magpie and Crown is a short walk from Thames Lock, and if you arrive any time later than three hours after low tide (roughly speaking) you can moor to the end of the lock, clamber up, and five minutes later you could be downing a glass of Large Ale.

 

Then on to the lesser delights of Teddington.

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weirup.JPGweirdown.JPGBased on a core boat speed of around 4mph: Limehouse to Brentford - a little over two hours, Brentford to Teddington - under an hour.

 

Lower down the flow will add about three mph to your core boat speed, further up about two mph.


btw; Richmond Lock is not used for the four hours surrounding high tide (ie: two before and two after). The adjoining weir is lifted up and you just cruise through unimpeded.

Edited by WJM
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The Flying Swan was allegedly based on a pub called the Bricklayers Arms, which, sadly, is no more.

 

However, the enterprising (and literate) young landlady of the Magpie and Crown is a fellow fan of Rankin, and she names her guest ales after beers from the books.

 

The Magpie and Crown is a short walk from Thames Lock, and if you arrive any time later than three hours after low tide (roughly speaking) you can moor to the end of the lock, clamber up, and five minutes later you could be downing a glass of Large Ale.

 

Then on to the lesser delights of Teddington.

Glad someone else knows of the legends of Brentford. I may be forced to stop just to have a pint of Large.

 

Thanks for the photos of the weir gates and all the timing advice - really looking forward to it now.

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A few tips that might be useful: Fill both your water and your diesel tanks before you go, wear lifejackets, keep everybody outside on the back deck till you clear Millbank, keep the front door locked till Millbank, have a good anchor with chain ready to deploy from the bow, secure it to two points, not one. Check that your engine air vents are either sufficiently high up, or sealed off, listen to Channel 14 all the time, constantly look behind you, the scene can change very quickly, turn into the big waves, dont take them on the side.

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A few tips that might be useful: Fill both your water and your diesel tanks before you go, wear lifejackets, keep everybody outside on the back deck till you clear Millbank, keep the front door locked till Millbank, have a good anchor with chain ready to deploy from the bow, secure it to two points, not one. Check that your engine air vents are either sufficiently high up, or sealed off, listen to Channel 14 all the time, constantly look behind you, the scene can change very quickly, turn into the big waves, dont take them on the side.

Can you give the "why"s for all those tips? I am interested not quibbling.

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Fill the water tank - excessive buoyancy makes the boat buck like crazy.

 

Fill the diesel because there is less chance of dirt getting stirred up and drawn into the filters.

 

Lifejackets and everybody outside - if a narrowboat does sink it will go down in seconds.

 

Two anchor points - the first point can shear off with the initial snatch.

 

Anchor at the front - anchored from the rear the back could be pulled low enough to take water

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Another thing that no one has mentioned yet is make sure your fuel filters are clean before you go. If your boat has not been bounced around for a while then you will be getting crap stirred off the bottom of the fuel tank. If possible change the filters before you go and the inspect them after the trip to see what has been stirred up.

 

Also check your engine is serviced and running well. The tideway isnt the place to find out you have a loose belt or an overheating problem.

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Not sure about the anchor at the front - I thought the perceived wisdom was to have the anchor at the upstream end. As I will be going with the tide behind me then surely it should be at the back? If I was to drop it from the bow it would make the whole boat swing through 180 degrees as it came to a stop and as a minimum that will swing me through a very wide arc, I guess it could also possibly capsize the boat if the tide was strong enough.

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Not sure about the anchor at the front - I thought the perceived wisdom was to have the anchor at the upstream end. As I will be going with the tide behind me then surely it should be at the back? If I was to drop it from the bow it would make the whole boat swing through 180 degrees as it came to a stop and as a minimum that will swing me through a very wide arc, I guess it could also possibly capsize the boat if the tide was strong enough.

 

Upstream is still ahead when you are travelling upriver on a flood tide, but that's semantics and I know what you mean.

 

Swinging through 180 degrees won't capsize a boat and shouldn't be a problem UNLESS you are approaching a bridge or other obstacle - and that's a distinct possibility going through London. Ideally you'd have a bow and stern anchor and could make a decision on which to use depending on the situation, but if you have to choose one or the other you are the skipper and it's your call. Just be aware that the initial bite of a deployed stern anchor on a strong tide might drag the stern down far enough on a narrowboat to swamp the engine vents.

Edited by blackrose
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Not sure about engine vents as such - I have an engine room and the motor sucks air from the space around it. If my stern access doors are closed and the engine room side hatch is shut then there is not really anywhere for significant water to get in. And I still have this vision of a bow anchor digging in and the boat stopping dead and then being spun round broadside to the tide for a moment. I've seen yachts take on quite a lean when dropping an anchor going forward too fast and they've got great big keels to keep them upright.

Edited by larryjc
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Not sure about engine vents as such - I have an engine room and the motor sucks air from the space around it. If my stern access doors are closed and the engine room side hatch is shut then there is not really anywhere for significant water to get in. And I still have this vision of a bow anchor digging in and the boat stopping dead and then being spun round broadside to the tide for a moment. I've seen yachts take on quite a lean when dropping an anchor going forward too fast and they've got great big keels to keep them upright.

 

The motor sucks air from the space around it and that air has to come from somewhere, so there must be some vents to allow air from outside to get into the engine space. If it's a trad stern and the vents are reasonably high, all well and good.

 

If you deploy a bow anchor while travelling with the current, you would steer the boat (with whatever steering you've got left) to one side or the other, using the current to swing the boat around until the warp gradually takes the strain and the anchor bites. I think the yachties you've seen are doing it wrong - you don't just keep going in a straight line. By swinging the boat around, the arc of the chain dragging along the river bed means that when the anchor does bite it should be less sudden than deploying a stern anchor which basically goes out in a straight line until it bites.

Edited by blackrose
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Just done a quick forum search without success but I'm sure there was a thread where it was advised to have the anchor at the end of the boat that pointed towards the current. Also I'm not convinced about the logic of steering the boat as you describe. Firstly assuming its an engine failure then by the time you have decided to chuck the anchor out you may well have lost most if not all steerage way so turning the tiller will be fairly pointless. So lets say you have three knots of tide setting you up river and the anchor digs in hard, the boat is now suddenly held fast by the bow and its going to spin around very fast.

 

But there again where is the evidence that it will bite in so hard as to pull out boat fixings or pull the stern underwater? I've probably anchored yachts over 500 times and although never at speed, I do know that muddy bottoms tend to take quite some time to allow the anchor to finally dig in. I'm more than prepared to admit my ignorance of narrow boats in this regard but is there real evidence of this?

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Definitely have the anchor at the bow. You don't want a one metre bow wave coming over your stern when it's already being pulled down by the anchor.

 

I have thrice lost power approaching a bridge. In two cases I was able to restart in time, but I always make sure I am well lined up so that if I do get caught out I will drift through unscathed - as I did on the third occasion.

 

In London you need to allow plenty of room to deploy an anchor (the depth of water requires a lot of rode) , and just before a bridge is not a good time to do it.

 

Bear in mind that boats are designed to go forwards, and usually present less resistance when going ahead than when going astern. You are therefore less likely to drag your anchor if it is attached at the bow.

 

If you still have doubts, look at the PLA video, which shows how to deploy an anchor - from the bow! cheers.gif

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You might like to look at the GPS tracker in this posting of a recent trip I did.

 

http://nbsg.wordpress.com/2013/04/20/tideway-trip-april-2013/

 

It was a weak (neap) tide, and we dawdled quite a bit on the way, so averaged only 4.3 kts over the ground. (18 nm in just over 4 hours)

 

NB also that high water is 60 mins later <edit> at Teddington, so if you leave Limehouse 3.5 hours before High Water LB then you have 4.5 hours to get to Teddington before the water starts to go out again (unless there is a lot of freshwater coming over the weir at Teddington). So the required speeds you have calculated are too high.

 

Enjoy!

Edited by Scholar Gypsy
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Just done a quick forum search without success but I'm sure there was a thread where it was advised to have the anchor at the end of the boat that pointed towards the current. Also I'm not convinced about the logic of steering the boat as you describe. Firstly assuming its an engine failure then by the time you have decided to chuck the anchor out you may well have lost most if not all steerage way so turning the tiller will be fairly pointless. So lets say you have three knots of tide setting you up river and the anchor digs in hard, the boat is now suddenly held fast by the bow and its going to spin around very fast.

 

But there again where is the evidence that it will bite in so hard as to pull out boat fixings or pull the stern underwater? I've probably anchored yachts over 500 times and although never at speed, I do know that muddy bottoms tend to take quite some time to allow the anchor to finally dig in. I'm more than prepared to admit my ignorance of narrow boats in this regard but is there real evidence of this?

 

There probably was a thread where someone advised a stern anchor. There's all sorts of advice on this forum.

 

My boat still steers out of gear even though the steering is reduced, but I said use the current in conjunction with your steering and the pull of the warp to turn the boat. If what you say is correct that an anchor will take time to dig in then why would your bow suddenly stop? You're contradicting yourself.

 

Personally I wouldn't want to use a stern anchor on a fast tidal river because my stern deck is only about 18" above the waterline. A secondary problem of using a stern anchor is how are you going to break it out of the river bed afterwards? You can't reverse over it or you're bound to get the warp wrapped around your prop.

 

Anyway, it sounds like you've already made up your mind and won't take any advice despite asking for it. It's your boat so just do what you want.

Edited by blackrose
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