new CRT consultation on buisiness licences

[onionbargee]

15 pages Plopped onto my mat this morning, courtesy of Suzie Mercer, she seems to have made it even more complicated than the last total fail.

 

( i don't have it in digital form, but i'm sure someone can post it up )

 

 

[scrumpylurcher]

Not sure whether I am the lucky one or you are, not received anything recently except my licence renewal.

[onionbargee]

i feel all special !

[mrsmelly]

We got ours at work CART seem to have sent lots of pages of waffle out but the astonishing fact is that all it says in reality is " We have put the price up "

Could have done it on one sheet of bog paper rather than umpteen sheets of A4.

 

Tim

[Grace and Favour]

We got ours at work CART seem to have sent lots of pages of waffle out but the astonishing fact is that all it says in reality is " We have put the price up "

Could have done it on one sheet of bog paper rather than umpteen sheets of A4.

 

Tim

Pump-out?

[cotswoldsman]

The thing that strikes me is that CRT seem to have Consultation Mad recently this is the 4th Consultation I am aware of in the last few months. Now I am all for Democracy but surely just a meeting with a few interested parties would sort all this out. These consultations all cost money and take up valuable staff time doing the analyse. Yes consult on major changes such as SE Moorings but Trading Licences??? This effects about 250 boats surely they can sit round a table and sort it out in less than one hour. Anyway I do not think Traders should have to pay more for a licence never quite understood the justification for this.

[scrumpylurcher]

This particular consultation must now have been going on for years, it was mentioned at a meeting traders had with BW at Braunston several years ago. Within the last few weeks the Roving Canal Traders met with CRT to discuss mainly the impact of the SE consultation but also other business as well. I wasn't there so I can only assume that this latest consultation was not mentioned at the time. Many traders are not in receipt of this document which I gather only has a month for comment. I am not keen on complaining about every thing that CRT do and I support a lot of their new ideas. I am however with John on this one, the amount of time and money going into this particular section of Boaters seems well out of proportion and could have been better used somewhere else.

[scrumpylurcher]

5 mins after posting above the said consultation has arrived in the mornings post. Havent time to read it now but will comment again later. I have to assume this is not due to the email I sent late last night requesting a copy, but more as a holder of a Traders License.

[onionbargee]

5 mins after posting above the said consultation has arrived in the mornings post. Havent time to read it now but will comment again later. I have to assume this is not due to the email I sent late last night requesting a copy, but more as a holder of a Traders License.

The power of CWDF ?

 

like Mrsmelly said I noticed that the low turnover discounts have been "incorporated" in all the new fees, but everything has ultimatly gone up ! thats one clever bit of whaffle.

 

I dont get how CRT is charging extra for " high risk" trading, where power tools are used aboard my own boat, if i injure myself or anyone else how is that any business of CRT ? are they going to send me a get well soon card ?

 

" we will also be conducting detailed compliance checking" it says, i don't think so somehow ! who's going to be doing that ?

Edited June 22, 2013 by onionbargee

[madcat]

Much more of this stuff from CaRT and I will lose the will to live. I just need a simple legal way to sell a few plants some craftwork and a bit of second hand tat from the boat. I most defiantly do not want the public on board.

[dmr]

I have just read this entire document.

it's all pretty reasonable with no obvious CaRT horrors. The total income to CaRT from traders looks to remain the same but some traders (low risk roving traders like us) pay a bit more whilst others pay a bit less.

This has been a huge and expensive review of trading and the result is just very small changes to the detail of exactly who pays exactly what, might have been better to save this money to fix lock 20 on the Wolverhampton flight.

 

............Dave

[cotswoldsman]

I have spoken a few times to CRT about Low Risk Traders and I am sorry I do not understand why they should pay anymore than a normal boater. If I run a Internet Business from my boat I do not have to pay more. Do boaters that offer boat engineering or BSS have to pay more for their licence. I can understand why Coal Boats, Trip Boats etc pay more. Also in my talks with CRT they mentioned they were going to change the system for Charity Boats has this happened?

[sueb]

Keeps the office staff in work.

[Tuscan]

New CEO is a wonderful opportunity for all sorts of new initiatives to come to the fore , lots of old ideas will get dusted down. With his rail background I suggest a published timetable for locks and tunnels !!!!

[Hastings]

I have spoken a few times to CRT about Low Risk Traders and I am sorry I do not understand why they should pay anymore than a normal boater. If I run a Internet Business from my boat I do not have to pay more. Do boaters that offer boat engineering or BSS have to pay more for their licence. I can understand why Coal Boats, Trip Boats etc pay more. Also in my talks with CRT they mentioned they were going to change the system for Charity Boats has this happened?

I'm not involved in these matters, but I suppose that the argument is that if you want to sell to people on CRT property, then you have to have a licence to do so. That's no different to selling on a public street, where you need a licence from the local authority. And of course you will also need suitable third party business insurance. And if CRT are going to license trading on their property, then it seems reasonable to charge a nominal amount to do all the admin. and paperwork. As I understand it, most traders (like madcat above) are not charged very much - about £1 a week or so, I believe, which hardly breaks the bank.

 

However, if you trade from your boat, but not directly with people on the towpath etc., it seems that you don't need a licence. This covers all manner of things from Ebay sales, through consultancy to designing websites. For these, there is no need to display wares or signs on the boat, and may be that's what should be considered. If you want passers by to see or know what you do, and you want to display wares or put signage on your boat, then you should pay a licence fee. That would catch boatfitters and safety certificate people if they put signs on their boats, but would not if they don't. How about that for a rule, or have I missed something?

[cotswoldsman]

I'm not involved in these matters, but I suppose that the argument is that if you want to sell to people on CRT property, then you have to have a licence to do so. That's no different to selling on a public street, where you need a licence from the local authority. And of course you will also need suitable third party business insurance. And if CRT are going to license trading on their property, then it seems reasonable to charge a nominal amount to do all the admin. and paperwork. As I understand it, most traders (like madcat above) are not charged very much - about £1 a week or so, I believe, which hardly breaks the bank.

 

However, if you trade from your boat, but not directly with people on the towpath etc., it seems that you don't need a licence. This covers all manner of things from Ebay sales, through consultancy to designing websites. For these, there is no need to display wares or signs on the boat, and may be that's what should be considered. If you want passers by to see or know what you do, and you want to display wares or put signage on your boat, then you should pay a licence fee. That would catch boatfitters and safety certificate people if they put signs on their boats, but would not if they don't. How about that for a rule, or have I missed something?

I would be amazed if the cost of administering the the roughly £8,000 in income generated from these licences even covers 25% of salaries never mind other income involved.

[furnessvale]

I have spoken a few times to CRT about Low Risk Traders and I am sorry I do not understand why they should pay anymore than a normal boater. If I run a Internet Business from my boat I do not have to pay more. Do boaters that offer boat engineering or BSS have to pay more for their licence. I can understand why Coal Boats, Trip Boats etc pay more. Also in my talks with CRT they mentioned they were going to change the system for Charity Boats has this happened?

If you run a business from your land based home (house), the local authority will charge some measure of business rates.

 

Is it really that different?

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[scrumpylurcher]

This appears to be the culmination of a long process and doesn't provide CRT with anymore income. Neither does it seem to do much for the legitimate trader. It seems we are going to have to justify ourselves annually, be subject to spot checks etc. Neither BW or CRT have proved themselves to be that good at monitoring things, rather than concentrate on those that have taken the trouble to get a license I would rather they concentrated their efforts on those who are not complying with the regulations. This would include those trading illegally and all the other problems - overstaying/licencing/continuous moorers etc.

Much as I feel CRT are trying to improve things there still seems to be a mindset on occasions to avoid the obvious and chase those doing their best to be honest. But then isn't that what happens in our lives every day.

[madcat]

I'm still looking into the possibility of trading,I put a couple of things on a friends stall they sold so I'm considering taking things further. Probably will not have the volume to make it worthwhile to get involved in all the bother. The occasional unwanted usefull thing I would just sell if I could, that's not in my opinion trading just the boating equivalent of a card in a window.

[Hastings]

If you run a business from your land based home (house), the local authority will charge some measure of business rates.

 

Is it really that different?

 

George ex nb Alton retired

In my earlier post above, I omitted to mention this point. The business rates charged on a home based business will depend on floor area being used, but will be far more than canal roving traders will ever pay, so actually in that sense it makes trading from a canal boat a cheap option.

 

Occasionally, people have said to me that they only sell the odd few things that they have made themselves, so paying for the trading licence isn't cost effective. You try telling the local authority that re business rates, and they'll say that volume/sales value is irrelevant. If you trade, you pay!

[madcat]

Flaming Ada Hastings, do your local authority go round craft fairs looking for their residents flogging stuff and what is their stance on boot sales and the plant tables that some households put out.

[Hastings]

Flaming Ada Hastings, do your local authority go round craft fairs looking for their residents flogging stuff and what is their stance on boot sales and the plant tables that some households put out.

I'm not sure that any of these are relevant. I was talking about using your house for business purposes, i.e. the building itself. None of the things you mention are part of the house, so no problem re business rates (apart from a liability for income tax perhaps if you sell things to make a profit).

 

All I tried to say was that if you operate a business, which in essence is selling things or a service for profit, from your home or boat (the thing you live in), you should expect to have to consider business rates or licensing respectively.

[Chop!]

I'm not sure that any of these are relevant. I was talking about using your house for business purposes, i.e. the building itself. None of the things you mention are part of the house, so no problem re business rates (apart from a liability for income tax perhaps if you sell things to make a profit).

 

All I tried to say was that if you operate a business, which in essence is selling things or a service for profit, from your home or boat (the thing you live in), you should expect to have to consider business rates or licensing respectively.

Well surely selling a few things, akin to a bootsale, from a boat rather than a car is relevant, neither is from a fixed residence

[cotswoldsman]

I'm not sure that any of these are relevant. I was talking about using your house for business purposes, i.e. the building itself. None of the things you mention are part of the house, so no problem re business rates (apart from a liability for income tax perhaps if you sell things to make a profit).

 

All I tried to say was that if you operate a business, which in essence is selling things or a service for profit, from your home or boat (the thing you live in), you should expect to have to consider business rates or licensing respectively.

Are you saying that the millions of people selling on Ebay are paying business rates?? Get real as I said before the aprox £9,000 raised from Low Risk traders is hardly going to sort out the maintenance on the system, or should I say the loss after taking into account the cost of collecting that £9,000

[Hastings]

Are you saying that the millions of people selling on Ebay are paying business rates?? Get real as I said before the aprox £9,000 raised from Low Risk traders is hardly going to sort out the maintenance on the system, or should I say the loss after taking into account the cost of collecting that £9,000

 

Are you saying that the millions of people selling on Ebay are paying business rates?? Get real as I said before the aprox £9,000 raised from Low Risk traders is hardly going to sort out the maintenance on the system, or should I say the loss after taking into account the cost of collecting that £9,000

As I understand it, the key to paying business rates for part of a house is generally that a specific part of it is used more or less exclusively for the business, e.g. a study used as an office or production room, rather than for domestic purposes. So sales via Ebay wouldn't fall into this category, unless it was a large business!

 

Whether the money raised from low risk traders does in fact cover the administration of getting it in is, I suggest, a red herring. That's for CRT to decide on when they do their business plans. CRT is a charity, but also a limited company (by guarantee), and whilst their books have to balance at the end of the year, there's no legal or accounting reason why any particular activity needs to cover its costs. I suspect that CRT do many things at a loss for good PR, environmental or ecological reasons, whilst other things they do probably make good profits, e.g. letting out the right to lay cables under towpaths. Whilst we as commentators may think that many things that CRT do are odd, not needed, or loss-making, in the end it's up to the Trustees of the charity to decide. But that won't stop us commentating.......

 

And I might agree with you that something needs to be done about the rules and fees on canal boat trading to make it all rather simpler. However, I do believe that traders should expect to pay something for the right to make money from the canal system. Land based traders by canals have expenses such as business rates (and of courses the dreaded VAT which roving traders are unlikely to have), and I can see no logic as to why boat traders should not be on an even playing field. Otherwise, they have a significant pricing advantage on their products.