10' or 12.5'?

[ambientskies]

Hi all.........

 

First post and VERY new to this boating lark, so a few questions coming your way no doubt in the very near future!

 

OK, I'm thinking of having some time off from mortgage repayments and selling my house to buy a live-aboard. My wife & I (no, I'm not royalty) have been thinking about having a wide beam made to our design. The thing is...as we have no real chugging time on the canals, what size boat can we get away with?

 

Length would be around 65' and our initial thoughts of it being 10'wide, but a few canal people have asked why not 12'6” wide? We plan to live around Milton Keynes and use the Grand Union as our main up & down weekend chug & trips down to London & beyond. We have seen the maps of wide beam access, but would love to have experienced wide beam owners have their say/input on this matter, as I have learnt to listen when I'm about to shell-out around £100k.

 

Thanks for your time

 

Cheers

[Gary Peacock]

Hi all.........

 

First post and VERY new to this boating lark, so a few questions coming your way no doubt in the very near future!

 

OK, I'm thinking of having some time off from mortgage repayments and selling my house to buy a live-aboard. My wife & I (no, I'm not royalty) have been thinking about having a wide beam made to our design. The thing is...as we have no real chugging time on the canals, what size boat can we get away with?

 

Length would be around 65' and our initial thoughts of it being 10'wide, but a few canal people have asked why not 12'6” wide? We plan to live around Milton Keynes and use the Grand Union as our main up & down weekend chug & trips down to London & beyond. We have seen the maps of wide beam access, but would love to have experienced wide beam owners have their say/input on this matter, as I have learnt to listen when I'm about to shell-out around £100k.

 

Thanks for your time

 

Cheers

 

 

My personal preference would be 11ft, to build a boat at 10ft rather than 11ft costs about £1500.00 pounds more so is good value for money. Once we get above 11ft the prices go go up dramatically partially due to the increased scantling work to comply with ISO/FDIS 12215-5:2005 but mainly down to the physical size of the boat causing the loss of a build slot which of course necessitates absorbing this cost into the bigger boat.

 

A word of caution with big boats there is a world of difference between building a narrowboat and trying to build a 12ft version of it. The engineering doesn't work the same for fat boats that does with skinny ones and some builders who built them are now wishing they had actually done the scantling assessments before signing certificates of conformity for these boats. (It could get embarrassing for them trying to explain how they chose to ignore this legal requirement for so many builds!)

 

If your looking at a new build broad beam boat ask the builder how they achieve conformity to the scantling assessments, if they can't explain this then I would recommend getting back in the car very quickly!

 

Anyway good luck with the project.

[stuart]

You really should get a few weeks on the canals yourself to see if you like it. Its a big adventure if you find you hate water!

[Tommo]

Hi all.........

We plan to live around Milton Keynes and use the Grand Union as our main up & down weekend chug & trips down to London & beyond.

 

Cheers

 

 

So where do you think you will find a residential mooring for such a boat around Milton Keynes?

 

Tommo

[meggsy]

Hi Jeff,

 

Good luck with it all......

[ambientskies]

Thanks Meggsy.

 

We are booking a canal holiday in December, to see if our plans are realistic, although you have to take a chance in life now & again, it will have it's pro's & con's as with everything else no doubt.

 

As for residential mooring, that has been arranged thanks.

 

11', I'll take on what you have said Gary & ask builders when going for quotes

 

Thanks for all of your interest & good wishes

 

cheers

[elessina]

.......Length would be around 65' and our initial thoughts of it being 10'wide, but a few canal people have asked why not 12'6” wide? We plan to live around Milton Keynes and use the Grand Union ......

 

You may wish to consider limiting your barge to 60 feet in length. At 65 feet long you will not be able to cross (East to West) the North broad beam canal network. Since you will be able to access the North network through the Wash, you will be restricting your cruising area.

 

My opinion, the wider the better, as each extra foot (even 6") seems to give a proportionally more usable interior space, but as pointed out, this has a cost effect. Also I believe there are some 11'-6" width restrictions along the middle level navigation, so maybe worth checking these out to see if they also limit your cruising range.

 

Ian

DB Elessina

[blackrose]

Once we get above 11ft the prices go go up dramatically partially due to the increased scantling work to comply with ISO/FDIS 12215-5:2005.

 

A word of caution with big boats there is a world of difference between building a narrowboat and trying to build a 12ft version of it. The engineering doesn't work the same for fat boats that does with skinny ones and some builders who built them are now wishing they had actually done the scantling assessments before signing certificates of conformity for these boats. (It could get embarrassing for them trying to explain how they chose to ignore this legal requirement for so many builds!)

 

Gary, sorry I'm not up on the jargon, by scanting work I assume you mean supports, bearers, etc? If a builder does not do the scantling assessment properly does than mean too few bearers spaced too far apart or bearers which are not heavy duty enough?

 

According to ISO/FDIS 12215-5:2005 how far apart should they be for a 12' wide narrowboat style widebeam, and which builders ignored this legal requirement?

Edited October 3, 2006 by blackrose

[Gary Peacock]

Gary, sorry I'm not up on the jargon, by scanting work I assume you mean supports, bearers, etc? If a builder does not do the scantling assessment properly does than mean too few bearers spaced too far apart or bearers which are not heavy duty enough?

 

According to ISO/FDIS 12215-5:2005 how far apart should they be for a 12' wide narrowboat style widebeam, and which builders ignored this legal requirement?

 

It's quite a complex subject and not quite so simple has just how many floor bearers and the dimensions, it involves the full structure.

 

I wouldn't want to do it by hand but the manual method is contained in the extract below-

 

SCANTLINGS CALCULATIONS PDF

 

This extract is taken from the 2006 Canal Boat Builders code of practice which members this year agreed to be bound by. The CBA code of practice is designed to actually exceed the legal requirements.

 

The CBA provides software and technical support to be able to meet both the legal and CBA code of practice requirements.

 

Without CBA membership a builder is required to perform and document the above calculation. In reality this would probably be more suited to the involvement of a marine architect.

 

Another thing that tends to put builders off doing the calculation besides the increased costs in actually building a hull to conform is the ridiculous costs of the various ISO's etc that you need to purchase in order to actually have the references that by signing the certificate of conformity you are in effect saying you have complied with.

 

If a builder is self certifying then it would be common sense to ask to see his copies of the various ISO's etc that he must have made reference too to enable him to legally certify compliance.

 

A commercial vehicle body builder tried to sell me a hull on Saturday that they had built with the help of a former employee of a now defunct boat builder, he was completely unaware of a single legal requirement involved in the building and supply of boat hulls. Now from reports the hull is very nice but without the paperwork it is still a lemon.

 

It's very easy to tell which builders ignored the scantlings cancellation simply look ask to see the scantlings calculation for your hull, if it's a DIY project then you should have been offered it with the Annex III declaration otherwise you can't complete the technical construction file.

 

Sorry if this sounds a bit negative but the CBA and BMF are trying to bring their house into order, but in reality they are a very small minority. While a large number of builders are claiming ignorance or simply using non compliance to increase their profits.

[David Schweizer]

I am not sure about the rules today, but at one time you needed permission from BW to take a boat wider than 10ft6ins North of Linslade on the GU. It may be worth checking this with BW before you proceed. You certainly won't be able to get any further north than Stockton with a wider boat because of the narrow bridge at the Blue Lias Pub

Edited October 3, 2006 by David Schweizer

[blackrose]

It's quite a complex subject and not quite so simple has just how many floor bearers and the dimensions, it involves the full structure.

 

I wouldn't want to do it by hand but the manual method is contained in the extract below-

 

SCANTLINGS CALCULATIONS PDF

 

 

Thanks for that, I guess you use some software to do the calculations. I'll have a look at my Annex 3 declaration this evening (you've got me worried now!)

 

I am not sure about the rules today, but at one time you needed permission from BW to take a boat wider than 10ft6ins North of Linslade on the GU. It may be worth checking this with BW before you proceed. You certainly won't be able to get any further north than Stockton with a wider boat because of the narrow bridge at the Blue Lias Pub

 

I think the rules are "proceed with caution" North of Berko. You do need to give BW notice and get permission to go through the Blisworth tunnel.

Edited October 3, 2006 by blackrose

[ChrisPy]

I'll have a look at my Annex 3 declaration this evening (you've got me worried now!)

LB take responsibility for that in their Annex 3, don't worry about it.

[blackrose]

LB take responsibility for that in their Annex 3, don't worry about it.

 

Thanks, I thought you might have something to say on the subject!

[GUMPY]

I am not sure about the rules today, but at one time you needed permission from BW to take a boat wider than 10ft6ins North of Linslade on the GU. It may be worth checking this with BW before you proceed. You certainly won't be able to get any further north than Stockton with a wider boat because of the narrow bridge at the Blue Lias Pub

You certainly don’t need permission now, I wasn’t aware that you ever did.

 

Some time ago BW did try and say that it was a broad canal only as far as Berkhamsted but that has now been dropped as it was one of their sillier ideas.

 

If your mooring is on line you will need permission from BW to moor there and they are reluctant to give that for boats over 7ft.

 

The bridge at Stockton is less than 14ft, 12ft6 may well pass, it all depends on the airdraft and the cabin shape. (Tape measure and cardboard template time)

 

The only restrictions on the GU are that you need to book passage through the two tunnels and you can only go through on a weekday and early in the morning.

 

There is at least on Barge that winters at Stoke Bruene and we were up there the year before last on Parglena which is 11ft6 beam.

 

 

J

Edited October 3, 2006 by idleness

[ambientskies]

Thanks for your posts guys, they have been a great help.

 

Is there such thing as a widebeam owners forum/club?

[GUMPY]

Thanks for your posts guys, they have been a great help.

 

Is there such thing as a widebeam owners forum/club?

 

http://www.barges.org

 

For all those interested in ex-commercial barges

or any other type of broad-beam inland waterways craft

 

Open to everybody, with or without a boat or barge,

who is (or would like to be) living in, cruising in, converting, or just relaxing aboard such vessels.

 

 

J

[tony collins]

You do need to give BW notice and get permission to go through the Blisworth tunnel.

A bloke who bought a widebeam dutch barge from Delta Marine in Warwick some years ago elected to take it to the Thames via the GU. His words afterwards were "never again" it was so stressful. As for Blisworth, they were told by BW "Just go through in the middle of the night" Good job someone coming north didn't have the same advice!

 

Tony

[blackrose]

Is there such thing as a widebeam owners forum/club?

 

Not sure, I haven't seen any narrowboat style widebeam forums. There's a Barge Association website (formerly the Dutch Barge Association): http://www.barges.org/ but common widebeams might be a bit too lowly for them.

 

In terms of info, you'll probably find everything you need on this forum.

 

Try Ian's website too, lots of interesting & useful pages: http://www.barging.co.uk/index.htm

 

A bloke who bought a widebeam dutch barge from Delta Marine in Warwick some years ago elected to take it to the Thames via the GU. His words afterwards were "never again" it was so stressful. As for Blisworth, they were told by BW "Just go through in the middle of the night" Good job someone coming north didn't have the same advice!

 

Tony

 

I think i might have met that guy at Batchworth lock about 7 years ago. He told me hed had to get a stonemason out to chisel some bricks out of a bridge to get his boat through! (I hope he replaced them ) This was despite checking with BW that it would fit under all bridges. He'd also gone through a few impellors which had sucked up stuff from the bottom into his cooling system.

[ambientskies]

My wife has spoken to a Dutch barge owner, they have bought the boat to live on in France next year, but in the mean time they are scraping along the bottom near Milton keynes, although they are great looking boats, it's not for us.

 

Thanks for the links & yes, this forum has a wealth of knowledge... lots to read up on.

 

Cheers

[ambientskies]

Just bringing this topic back up the list, to see if there's any more info/views from widebeam owners... before we take the plunge.

[Golden Duck]

We are 11ft 2" in the beam. When delivered, Golden Duck was brought down the GU from the Goldsbrough yard, across London on the Regents and then up the River Lee to her current home.

We tend to go as far as central London on trips.

 

As with all things, widebeams have pro's and cons.

 

The advantage as you have already realised is the living space.

 

The disadvantage is speed and canal access. We definitely can't go as fast as narrowboats. Our greater displacement means we have to really slow down a lot when passing moored boats and on twisty/narrow waterways, we are often down to 2mph or less. I can imagine that this would be quite frustrating on a private boat.

When I steer a narrowboat after being out on GD, I feel like I've switched from a truck to a saloon car.

 

The other thing is mooring. Access to off-line marinas is sometimes a problem (can't always squeeze into slots between pontoon fingers) and on-line moorings can sometimes be restrictive on narrower canals.

 

You can get into tighter and smaller places with a narrowboat.

 

To summarise, if you are planning to mainly live on a static mooring with an occasional trip out (weekends, etc), then a widebeam could be for you.

If you want to spend a lot of time cruising, then you might find a widebeam a bit frustrating.

 

As the canals get busier, this will only get worse.

 

Golden Duck is being moved shortly to a new home on the River Medway.

 

Hi all.........

 

First post and VERY new to this boating lark, so a few questions coming your way no doubt in the very near future!

 

OK, I'm thinking of having some time off from mortgage repayments and selling my house to buy a live-aboard. My wife & I (no, I'm not royalty) have been thinking about having a wide beam made to our design. The thing is...as we have no real chugging time on the canals, what size boat can we get away with?

 

Length would be around 65' and our initial thoughts of it being 10'wide, but a few canal people have asked why not 12'6” wide? We plan to live around Milton Keynes and use the Grand Union as our main up & down weekend chug & trips down to London & beyond. We have seen the maps of wide beam access, but would love to have experienced wide beam owners have their say/input on this matter, as I have learnt to listen when I'm about to shell-out around £100k.

 

Thanks for your time

 

Cheers

Edited October 16, 2006 by Golden Duck

[ambientskies]

Just the sort of comments were after, thanks for that Golden Duck...happy chugging!

[blackrose]

My boat is 12' beam. Apart from the obvious width limitations I don't find speed or mooring much of an issue. My boat only draws 2' which is less than some narrowboats, so on broad canals I can get into towpath moorings pretty much anywhere a narrowboat can without a problem and I don't find my displacement creates any more disturbance than a narrowboat.

 

Having said then I always move slowly anyway because it's my home and I don't like bashing it against things. The only time I've given it full throttle is on the tidal Thames.

 

As far as I'm concerned there are only 3 drawbacks to a widebeam: 1) the limited cruising range, 2) the stick I get from some of my neighbours, some of whom have become visibly angry after looking inside my boat, & 3) the fact that once you've lived on a widebeam you can't get on a narrowboat without feeling claustrophobic.

[Moley]

2) the stick I get from some of my neighbours, some of whom have become visibly angry after looking inside my boat

Sorry Blackrose, could you elaborate on that

[blackrose]

Sorry Blackrose, could you elaborate on that

 

The green-eyed monster init. I don't know why some people get jealous of other people's boats.

 

I originally wanted a Dutch barge but I couldn't afford a new build and couldn't find an old one with a decent hull, so my widebeam was a compromise. I often talk to Dutch barge owners when I see them moored up nearby, and when they see I'm interested quite a few have kindly invited me onboard to look around. Of course I feel envious sometimes when I look at the lines and the equipment they have on board, but for me the overriding feeling is one of appreciation and I certainly wouldn't make snide comments about their boat in the way that some narrowboaters have slagged mine off!

 

I can only put it down to a sign of dissatisfaction with their own boats.