Steel, Iron or Lead Ballast Required - North West Herts

[alan_fincher]

Don't forget that the 50lb or 60lb here refers to the rail weight, not the fishplate weight. Rail is often described in pounds per yard. These plates will be quite small

 

Richard

Yes, even mainline fishplates are not very heavy. Narrow gauge ones, I suspect not very heavy at all!

 

60lbs per yard narrow gauge track though, in (say) yard lengths would probably be fine.

 

EDIT:

 

Perhaps I should get in te first strike, and say that if the 20:00 Virgin Trains Euston to Manchester service ends up on the ballast tonight through lack of rails, it honestly will have had nothing to do with me...........................

 

I wouldn't think so, that bit of rail was working perfectly - it was designed to derail stock

 

Richard

I look forward to the explanation though - unless you already know it?

 

Presumably tey had at least been told they could move, though the catch points said otherwise?

Edited June 1, 2013 by alan_fincher

[churchward]

I look forward to the explanation though - unless you already know it?

 

Presumably tey had at least been told they could move, though the catch points said otherwise?

It is not known what the circumstances were in the GCR incident.

 

They are not "catch" points the correct name for the device in question are "trap" points. This is because they trap the loco in the non running line and prevent it moving onto the running line. There are/were catch points but these are used in a different scenario usually preventing a loco in a main line loop (say at a station) running down hill onto the mainline.

 

The video on the GCR shows the signals at danger trap points set in normal mode to protect the line. Since the signal box is opposite normal practice according to the signalling rules is to show a yellow flag (and keep it out depicting loco may proceed as far as line is clear ie a shunt move) to the loco if the signal is inoperative or there is no signal for the intended move.

 

This was not done. That may be the error or the loco crew made an incorrect assumption and did not have a clear understanding with the signalman before moving. If it was the later it is a SPAD A class. If the signalman had told them to move but did not show a yellow flag (none in the video) then both they and the loco crew are at fault.

 

As in understand it there will not be a network rail/RAIB investigation (although reportable to them) as the incident did not involve passengers and so an internal enquiry will be conducted.

Edited June 1, 2013 by churchward

[Tam & Di]

Thanks,

 

As it is "Sickle" I clearly have room for engineering brick, but would strongly prefer to use something highly dense, to get it as low as possible.

 

Gold would work well

[Tacet]

When I required some lead to level-up Tacet, the local scrapyard was helpful and sold the lead at the yard's buying price. In fact, I had some copper to weigh-in and the cost of the lead was deducted from the amount due to me. With hindsight, the scrappie may have been pleased to assist as the purchase (of the copper) went through its books but I am less sure about the sale of the lead.... I then had an enjoyable afternoon casting the lead into the shape required to fit a convenient void

 

If Alan is flexible on the size and shape of the iron required, a visit to the scapyard on a quiet day to see what is available could be a good start; then a decision can be made on how best to move anything useful - a quarter tonne or so should be within the capability of many cars - assuming no rear passengers.

[frangar]

One of the reasons that Mann buck may be pricey is that it comes nicely sawn ( not oxy cut which have rough edges) into very useable sizes that can be slotted into small spaces.. Useful for trimming up a new build which is what we used to use it for but I agree it's expensive if you can use larger more irregular lumps of metal.

 

Cheers

 

Gareth

[ChimneyChain]

Why not use concrete posts, there cheap compard to steel and quite heavy also. There's loads under our floor.

 

Darren

[churchward]

While we are thinking of alternatives one I found to be useful is bricks/slabs out of old electric night storage heaters. They are purposely made of dense and heavy material to retain the heat, per sq ft they are much heavier than paving slabs and ordinary building bricks.

[alan_fincher]

I guess the challenge may be to find 2 tons of night storage heater bricks for sale though?

 

I've no idea how dense they are, but it seems that anything relynig on concrete, paving slabs, engineering bricks, etc, will typically be at least three times the physical size of iron or steel, for the same weight. That is a lot of volume, when you are talking about 1 or two tons of the stuff.

[Catrin]

I guess the challenge may be to find 2 tons of night storage heater bricks for sale though?

 

I've no idea how dense they are, but it seems that anything relynig on concrete, paving slabs, engineering bricks, etc, will typically be at least three times the physical size of iron or steel, for the same weight. That is a lot of volume, when you are talking about 1 or two tons of the stuff.

On the other hand, when you are talking about 2 tons of the stuff, iron/steel/etc is going to be extremely dense and very hard to move it from where it has been dumped, and into your boat.

 

Speaking as someone who will be expected to move it.

Edited June 1, 2013 by Catrin

[PaddingtonBear]

Oh for god's sake you have got a Volvo, carry a tonne easily or possibly hire a trailer andf get two tonnes

[GUMPY]

Some thoughts

 

An engineering brick weighs 2.3kg and has a volume of 1.4l

1 ton of bricks is about 435 bricks

that is a volume of 0.6cubic metres and real easy to move and stack by hand and to adjust if you have it wrong.

Engineering bricks also do not absorb water unlike concrete and are heavier by volume than concrete.

We used them on the barge as the price of steel was way to much and we had the volume under the floor.

[churchward]

I guess the challenge may be to find 2 tons of night storage heater bricks for sale though?

 

I've no idea how dense they are, but it seems that anything relynig on concrete, paving slabs, engineering bricks, etc, will typically be at least three times the physical size of iron or steel, for the same weight. That is a lot of volume, when you are talking about 1 or two tons of the stuff.

Indeed they will take up more space than iron or steel but they are quite dense. I got 20Kg out of one storage radiator. It was an older one and quite big in a house context but the bricks themselves were about 9X9 inch and 1.5 inch thick are about 1Kg each.

 

Another though and possible source of steel could be Tractor weights ie those used on front of tractors to counter balance heavy machinery fitted to the rear couplings. I got a couple of those once and they were 25Kg each and about a ft sq or a bit less and about 2 in thick.

 

Trouble with anything steel it will be hard to find someone who doesn't know such stuff is quite valuable these days.

 

On the other hand, when you are talking about 2 tons of the stuff, iron/steel/etc is going to be extremely dense and very hard to move it from where it has been dumped, and into your boat.

 

Speaking as someone who will be expected to move it.

Quite so. As someone who has wheel barrow'd 10 tons of earth around to a back garden to finish filling a pond this week I can say amen to that!

 

Still, I shan't need to go to the Gym this week.

Edited June 1, 2013 by churchward

[alan_fincher]

Oh for god's sake you have got a Volvo, carry a tonne easily or possibly hire a trailer andf get two tonnes

I don't wish to damage the Barbour jacket or the green wellies, (or indeed the Labrador!), by loading any nasty brick or metal things into the back!

 

(It's an option, of course, but I have still got to find someone with the right product, at the right price, and in the right place. Come to think of it, perhaps we should come and visit you? I can easily imagine a ton of metal going missing from that yard not being noticed for some considerable time!)

[David Mack]

I guess the challenge may be to find 2 tons of night storage heater bricks for sale though?

 

For starters? Clicky

[jake_crew]

10 years ago I bought lead offcuts from my scrappy in Harlow as ballast - at about a £1 per kilo for clean rolled sheet.

 

I traded it back a few months back, after the rebottoming, to the same place for nearer £2 a kilo.

Edited June 2, 2013 by jake_crew

[Steve Goddard]

have a look on ebay for tractor weights. You used to be able to pick them up cheap but I now see that most of them seem to be coming out at around £400 per ton.

 

This looks interesting but expensive

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/25-kg-Ballast-Weights-Boat-Ship-Barge-Market-Tractor-over-100-tonnes-in-stock-/200925224140?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_BoatEquipment_Accessories_SM&hash=item2ec8139ccc#ht_880wt_1172

 

and I've just noticed where they are

Edited June 2, 2013 by Steve Goddard

[alan_fincher]

I guess the challenge may be to find 2 tons of night storage heater bricks for sale though?

 

I've no idea how dense they are.................................

 

 

For starters? Clicky

 

Yes, but I'm not in a position to drive all around the country collecting one or two storage heaters at a time.

 

From what I can see doing a bit of Googling, even in a bid ones the bricks seldom weigh more than 100K overallg, and in some far less.

 

It is surprisingly hard to find any idea of density, but I thing we are looking at at absolte maximum of 3.3 from what I can see, so steel is maybe 2.4 times as dense.

 

Engineering brick seems to quote 2.3 maximum, so steel is about 3.4 times more dense than enginnering brick.

 

Now I'll admit the space savings are only gained if it is in nice pices that will make a tidy stack with not a lot of air in it, but, for that right thing, steel or iron is going to pack around 3 times more compactly than any easily available alternative, I think.

 

OK, I have loads of space, but I am looking for small, (ideally!).

 

I do accept metal is going to cost more, maybe a lot more.....

 

have a look on ebay for tractor weights. You used to be able to pick them up cheap but I now see that most of them seem to be coming out at around £400 per ton.

 

This looks interesting but expensive

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/25-kg-Ballast-Weights-Boat-Ship-Barge-Market-Tractor-over-100-tonnes-in-stock-/200925224140?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_BoatEquipment_Accessories_SM&hash=item2ec8139ccc#ht_880wt_1172

 

and I've just noticed where they are

Sorry,

 

Missed this post when trawling through yesterday.

 

In fact I have been offered somewhere else what sounds very similar to this, (mine were referred to as "ex admiralty naval ballast").

 

It is interesting that they want £450 a ton here, plus of course transport costs. That is starting to sound like a going rate, then, unfortunately.

 

I fo like the idea of standardised 25Kg lumps, but what a cost!

[john6767]

I use solid blue engineering bricks for trimming ballast. They are 3.2kg each, and I did weigh them to check. Seconds from a builders merchant are cheap, a Ton would equate to something like 317 bricks, which would cost, if I remember correctly, something like £60 as seconds, so its not a massive investment. They are also easy to tranport as you can move them in a few goes. I can't see the point in going for expensive storage radiator ones, they can't be much different density wise can they.

[Mike Tee]

I do like this internet lark! Looking at the ebay link for the 25kg ballast, its possible to zoom in, count how many are on a pallet, and realise how small a ton of it looks - also easy to imagine how much space it would take up given the area you have available.

And only 40 odd journeys from where they drop it! Ballast barbecue party coming up?

[Extend99]

Alan,

 

I have steel ballast in Batavia which I am in the process of trying to remove You are very welcome to have it, but.......

 

It comprises 4 engine flywheels and some stacks of "window cut-outs" welded together, which weigh about 200 kg each. Not very easy to move, but compact!

 

Chris G

Chris G

 

What size are the flywheels?

 

Maybe you could contact me on 01474 356566 and we could agree something?

 

Although it sounds like I will have to go on a weight lifting course!

 

Best wishes

 

Martyn

[jake_crew]

At the risk of resurrecting this thread,

 

and having weighed in the lead I had,

 

I am now looking for maybe 200 kg of steel ballast in the Hertfordshire area.

 

Lengths of rail would be good, or flat plate, but I'm open to offers.

[Neil Smith]

Contact some lift firms, if they are taking out an old lift to replace for new they might sell the counter weights that are flat and heavy.

 

Neil

[alan_fincher]

If anybody does find a source of reasonably priced steel or iron ballast in the Southern GU area, I would be interested, if there is more than they need.

 

I think we will be needing some more - possibly as much as half a ton / tonne.

[jake_crew]

Alan, have you considered an IBC filled with water ?

 

At a metre cubed and full, these would weigh a tonne. The C of G would be at 500 mm, though I guess you'd want the C of G lower than that ??

 

Colin