gas ovens and hobs...

[lee b]

hi all...i am looking at all manner of items for a sail away narrowboat and am looking into gas hobs and ovens,the caravan type i keep seeing in boats doesn't appeal as the ones i have seen look about big enough to stick a chickens leg in...

i have been looking at lpg cookers for houses''not natural gas'',the hobs usually have lpg conversion nipples to change over or visa versa...the oven i am looking at is lpg as standard but has an electric fan and oven light,is their a way of converting them other than running a 230v socket at the back run from a inverter,i know you can run them without the electric fan and light but i would prefer the fan if possible...the light always looks better too...

does anyone run this type of oven? does the fan and light use much energy? it says a 3amp supply on the spec for the oven, i plan to cruise so i wont be hooking up to a constant 230v supply....

i cook mainly with a hob but do like my sunday roasts and home made cakes...i don't want a micro wave in the boat cause i'm not a fan of neuked food lol....plus i would think a micro wave would eat the amps out of your batteries anyway...

any advice would be good...

[nicknorman]

hi all...i am looking at all manner of items for a sail away narrowboat and am looking into gas hobs and ovens,the caravan type i keep seeing in boats doesn't appeal as the ones i have seen look about big enough to stick a chickens leg in...

i have been looking at lpg cookers for houses''not natural gas'',the hobs usually have lpg conversion nipples to change over or visa versa...the oven i am looking at is lpg as standard but has an electric fan and oven light,is their a way of converting them other than running a 230v socket at the back run from a inverter,i know you can run them without the electric fan and light but i would prefer the fan if possible...the light always looks better too...

does anyone run this type of oven? does the fan and light use much energy? it says a 3amp supply on the spec for the oven, i plan to cruise so i wont be hooking up to a constant 230v supply....

i cook mainly with a hob but do like my sunday roasts and home made cakes...i don't want a micro wave in the boat cause i'm not a fan of neuked food lol....plus i would think a micro wave would eat the amps out of your batteries anyway...

any advice would be good...

We have a domestic sized gas fan oven which, as you suggest, is so much better than a caravan-type one. We power it from an inverter and it doesn't use much power - the light can be turned on or off as required. TBH I never actually measured the power drain but it can't be much just for a modest fan. Bear in mind that typically the fan also helps to keep the outer casing cool and it may not be designed to be lit with no mains power.

[MtB]

hi all...i am looking at all manner of items for a sail away narrowboat and am looking into gas hobs and ovens,the caravan type i keep seeing in boats doesn't appeal as the ones i have seen look about big enough to stick a chickens leg in...

i have been looking at lpg cookers for houses''not natural gas'',the hobs usually have lpg conversion nipples to change over or visa versa...the oven i am looking at is lpg as standard but has an electric fan and oven light,is their a way of converting them other than running a 230v socket at the back run from a inverter,i know you can run them without the electric fan and light but i would prefer the fan if possible...the light always looks better too...

does anyone run this type of oven? does the fan and light use much energy? it says a 3amp supply on the spec for the oven, i plan to cruise so i wont be hooking up to a constant 230v supply....

i cook mainly with a hob but do like my sunday roasts and home made cakes...i don't want a micro wave in the boat cause i'm not a fan of neuked food lol....plus i would think a micro wave would eat the amps out of your batteries anyway...

any advice would be good...

 

Any domestic oven converted for LPG will be fine for a boat, but the are physically large. If you need a domestic one to cook your amazingly large chicken leg it will be fine, technically.

 

Take care choosing a hob though. Most domestic hobs need 50mm clearance at the back meaning the have to be fitted into a 600mm deep worktop which your galley layout may not accommodate, and many don't have flame supervision which is compulsory in a boat.

 

MtB

[tree monkey]

Any domestic oven converted for LPG will be fine for a boat, but the are physically large. If you need a domestic one to cook your amazingly large chicken leg it will be fine, technically.

 

Take care choosing a hob though. Most domestic hobs need 50mm clearance at the back meaning the have to be fitted into a 600mm deep worktop which your galley layout may not accommodate, and many don't have flame supervision which is compulsory in a boat.

 

MtB

 

I like that phrase and so hope its not a typo, it brings to mind a small imp that lives in you cooker just watching the flame in case it decides to be naughty.

 

 

 

 

 

 

or of course i might just need some sleep and less whisky

[lee b]

the oven and hob i have been looking at both have safety cut offs,i am installing my kitchen half on one side and half on the other so intend to put the gas hob on the ''L'' location point if that makes sense...''corner unit''...the oven i think might go into a above counter unit...not 100%sure yet,just looks like it may create more space,also i have been looking at kitchen units with ''solid legs'',as apposed to the plastic type that are covered with a plinth,the idea is to create a little extra space under the units,ie pull out baskets or fit draws under...anywhere to store my supply of baked beans lol... thanks for the advice...i thought the fan and light would be ok on a inverter but its always best to get advice from someone who knows for sure...

also i have been told by a boater today that you cant use soldier joints on rigid gas pipe,the pipe haves to be in one piece ''a roll of copper pipe'',this makes no sense reading the rcd as it says no soft pipe,rigid only...copper on a roll is supple,haves to be to roll it out...anyone know whats the correct pipe is as i don't fancy ripping the boat apart to re fit it...cheers...

[Stormbringer]

Our house sized hob and oven are fitted in the angled bit of our crossover style kitchen, allowing the required clearance.

It too has a 230v fan and ignition, but as said it uses very little power.and its only on when you're cooking. Works ok for us !

Cheers

 

Andy

[nicknorman]

...

also i have been told by a boater today that you cant use soldier joints on rigid gas pipe,the pipe haves to be in one piece ''a roll of copper pipe'',this makes no sense reading the rcd as it says no soft pipe,rigid only...copper on a roll is supple,haves to be to roll it out...anyone know whats the correct pipe is as i don't fancy ripping the boat apart to re fit it...cheers...

Joints must be compression only and kept to the minimum absolutely necessary. By "rigid" it means not flexible (rubbery pipe), but of course copper pipe can always be bent so its not rigid in the absolute sense of the word. I believe you need to use gas pipe, not small bore water pipe since the latter is too thin-walled. And supported by clips at the prescribed fixing distance.

[Chris Pink]

You will need to make sure your gas pipe is capable of delivering the amount of gas a domestic oven and hob demands. A lot of 'standard' boat gas pipe is 3/8" and that may be too small for your chicken leg on full chat.

[bizzard]

If you need to straighten annealed copper gas tubing, find a bit of wooden block, preferably hard wood about 4x4'' drill a hole of the same o.d as the tubing through it, you can then draw the tubing through the hole to straighten it nicely. When bending curves and bends in copper tubing, measure accurately and bend once, don't keep altering the bend as it will quickly work harden ''and need re-annealing'' weaken and if manipulated too much possibly snap.

[lee b]

ye cheers,i actually do plumbing work being a builder but never on a boat so its better to check,it does make sense to use a straight run with no joins because of the movement on boats,also i i'm not all that keen on waking up in 3million pieces if the pipe joint fails,i always use a pipe bender if bends are needed,i have seen 8 and 10mm copper on boats i have viewed,it does seem to small for a longish run even with propane,i was gona go with 15mm for a better flow ?...ye chris,i don't fancy eating a chicken that the kiss of life could revive it...i don't mind my steak bloody,especially after living in france for over 6years...cut its throat,wipe its arse and stick it on my plate...

[MtB]

ye cheers,i actually do plumbing work being a builder but never on a boat so its better to check,it does make sense to use a straight run with no joins because of the movement on boats,also i i'm not all that keen on waking up in 3million pieces if the pipe joint fails,i always use a pipe bender if bends are needed,i have seen 8 and 10mm copper on boats i have viewed,it does seem to small for a longish run even with propane,i was gona go with 15mm for a better flow ?...ye chris,i don't fancy eating a chicken that the kiss of life could revive it...i don't mind my steak bloody,especially after living in france for over 6years...cut its throat,wipe its arse and stick it on my plate...

 

The trouble with DIYing it and relying on advice from other DIYers is that they tend to leave out important bits of info that will come and bite you in the bum later when you come to get the boat assessed for RCD compliance and/or BBS examined.

 

Things for example you have touched upon but don't seem to realise the importance of, like avoiding unnecessary joints, and getting the pipe sizing right. An undersized pipe or unnecessary joint will cause a BSS fail and replacing two long length with a single, longer, jointless length of pipe can be one helluva ball-ache, to use the technical term.

 

And to answer your question about 15mm pipe, yes it will be more than adequate if you can find it in annealed format, with the correct wall thickness and at a price you can afford.

 

Please don't underestimate the scope for this installation to be fecked up. I once saw a widebeam fully fitted out by a builder who used 15mm household copper throughout including the gas. Finished boat, almost. There was literally NOTHING about his gas installation that complied. Wrong regulator, wrong pipe material, pipes too low in the boat, absent appliance isolation valves, natural gas flex on the oven, All the sort of thing he just didn't know about because he just assumed domestic installation was pretty similar. it's all been discussed on this board in depth, many times over. Use the search facility and find all the threads you can, read them and make sure you understand what everyone is arguing about, then you'll be in a position to ask more questions and get this installation right first time.

 

MtB

 

P.S. the standard with with your installation needs to comply is BS 5482-3:2005 LPG installations in boats – now replaced with ISO 10239:2000 which is effectively identical.

 

 

 

Edited to correct my spelling and to remove a tautology!

Edited May 28, 2013 by Mike the Boilerman

[Chris Pink]

ye cheers,i actually do plumbing work being a builder but never on a boat so its better to check,it does make sense to use a straight run with no joins because of the movement on boats,also i i'm not all that keen on waking up in 3million pieces if the pipe joint fails,i always use a pipe bender if bends are needed,i have seen 8 and 10mm copper on boats i have viewed,it does seem to small for a longish run even with propane,i was gona go with 15mm for a better flow ?...ye chris,i don't fancy eating a chicken that the kiss of life could revive it...i don't mind my steak bloody,especially after living in france for over 6years...cut its throat,wipe its arse and stick it on my plate...

 

1/2" will be easier to find in the right wall thickness

 

BES are your friend. http://www.bes.co.uk/

[MtB]

Here's the spec for pipework material, assuming you are using copper, lifted directly from BS5482-3:

 

"seamless copper tube conforming to BS EN 1057 with fittings in accordance with section 5.3"

 

Section 5.3 says:

 

"Compression fittings should be made of copper or copper alloy conforming to BS EN 1254-2. Annealed olives
should be used."

 

MtB

1/2" will be easier to find in the right wall thickness

 

BES are your friend. http://www.bes.co.uk/

 

And the copper tube wall thickness requirements are from BS EN 10239 which says 0.8mm for tube up to and including 12mm, and 1,5mm for anything above 12mm. This rules out most metric sized annealed copper tube.

 

MtB

[nicknorman]

Annealed olives should be used."

 

That's a good point since most of the compression fittings one gets these days have crappy hard brass olives!

[smileypete]

Sounds like the OP would best get the install done by a gas bod registered to work on boats.

 

Either get a personal recommendation and/or use the advanced search facility to look for a boat registered one on:

 

http://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/

 

(If the boat is to be used for leisure purposes only NOT liveaboard, then I think the person doing the gas work only needs to 'competent' in the eyes of GSUIR, BUT without being able to judge this for sure, it's gotta be better to get a boat registered gas bod in to do it anyway)

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited May 28, 2013 by smileypete

[smithwrecker]

To give a rough idea, I used to be corgi registered so did all the gas work on my boat myself. 65' with galley amidships. Gas hob and desperate oven, the cost in pipe and components necessary to comply to BSC regs, regulator through to both appliances...........£350!!!!!!!

Don't underestimate those pesky BSC regs' do it right first time or IT WILL cost you more to put it right later!!! Hopes that helps.

[lee b]

cheers all,as long as i know the regs ie correct pipe and fittings the rest i have no problems with,as i have pointed out,i am a builder,have done lots of plumbing including gas fittings in france and spain while i lived their because nearly all gas installations are propane and new installations have to be tested and certificated,so its more the case of knowing what to put in,not how to put it in...i know theirs much more pipe fixings in a boat than a house because houses don't float down the cut and get hit by amateur boaters ''like i will be'',or as i keep hearing ''holiday boaters'',one of which i told off the other day while i was fishing as he thought he was at silverstone,the oncoming boater who the holiday boater really pissed off taught me some new swear words...lol despite what most fishermen think i have never found canal traffic to be a major problem unless they go too fast... moast of the fisherman that moan couldn't catch a fish out of a koi carp pond... ''theirs two types of fishermen...ones that fish for the pleasure of being outside and ones like myself that catch fish''...i'm about to do a new topic on boat paints...whats best...methods of painting etc...thanks for you advice