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Is my rudder about to fall off ??


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Just taken over a 2005 Sterling narrowboat and we are not sure if the rudder is about to fall off.

There seems to be a lot of side ways play and it has been suggested to us by a fellow and more experienced boater that the rudder is loose.

This maybe caused by the bolts that hold the rudder to the tiller stem have worked loose.

We are not able to get it into dry dock and would appreciate any suggestions of how to check this is the case and how to get it fixed temporarily so we can get it to dry dock

We are on the Peak Forest Canal at New Mills Derbyshire if anyone near by can give us a hand or suggest someone we would be very grateful.

new to all this so teething problems to be expected

thanks

Pete and Helen

 

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Here's another possibility - depending on the design of the rudder (photos would be helpful). I have had this happen on my boat, after catching the rudder on a largish rock.

 

The pin on the bottom of the rudder may have lifted out of the socket in the skeg, which can cause the rudder to flap around a bit, but it still works (sort of). In normal operation this "pin in socket" forms the bottom end of the axis about which the rudder rotates - the top end is where it comes out through the deck, through a bearing of some sort (often a very crude bearing).

 

If you have long arms then reach down through the weed hatch and find the bottom of the rudder and see if the pin is indeed seated in the skeg. If it is not then you need a reliable helper to lift the rudder up a couple of inches and you can then (if your hands are not too cold by this time) move the pin into position above the socket, at which point your helper slowly lowers it down. Be careful not to get your finger between the rudder and the skeg, or anywhere near the socket, else you may find the fat in your finger is now turned into rudder grease.

 

PS the above assumes that the rudder is loose, but that the tiller is securely fixed to the rudder. The other possibility is that the rudder is fine, but the tiller is not securely fixed to it. In that case tighten the nut that holds them together.

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A proper boat hook will lift the rudder back onto the skeg socket, by the hole on the rudders top if you have one.

However I doubt if its that but the bolts that secure the blade to the stock where the stock passes through the rudder blades tube, if this is the type you have. Some have pinch bolts that screw in and locate into drilled indents in the stock and some have bolts that pass right through with nuts on the other side. It should be possible to tighten both types through the weed box.. If the waters clear you should be able to see them. The spanner size is often 19mm or 3/4''AF, a long spanner will be best especially if there's one low down.''tie a security string to it''. If the boat is oldish and not been docked for blacking regularly these bolts might be rusted and might snap off, so go easy.

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On my last trip to the Peak Forest canal, I can definately say there are lots of big rocks in that canal, and it is very likely one of them has knocked the rudder out of place.....I remember lots of them along the side of the canal when trying to moor....which wasnt easy....

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On my last trip to the Peak Forest canal, I can definately say there are lots of big rocks in that canal, and it is very likely one of them has knocked the rudder out of place.....I remember lots of them along the side of the canal when trying to moor....which wasnt easy....

I think your boat Dean a ''Liverpool'' boat I think has the rudder attached as how I describe. The bolts usually get shifted and loose when say your backing up to turn, the rudder strikes the bank whilst your holding the tiller firmly and the natural instinct seems to be to push or pull hard on the tiller to try and free it whilst the rudders still held by the bank. Ive had to tighten 3 L/boats rudder bolts, 1 n/boat and 2, 10'w/b boats around here. So if your rudder gets caught up ''leave the tiller be'' and just drive or pole forwards until its free.

Edited by bizzard
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I think your boat Dean a ''Liverpool'' boat I think has the rudder attached as how I describe. The bolts usually get shifted and loose when say your backing up to turn, the rudder strikes the bank whilst your holding the tiller firmly and the natural instinct seems to be to push or pull hard on the tiller to try and free it whilst the rudders still held by the bank. Ive had to tighten 3 L/boats rudder bolts, 1 n/boat and 2, 10'w/b boats around here. So if your rudder gets caught up ''leave the tiller be'' and just drive or pole forwards until its free.

 

Good tips.

I was talking about the fact that the OP is on that canal (with the rocks).

I went on that canal with my old boat, but didnt suffer anything bad. I'm always terribly careful of my rudder......;-)

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Thanks for all the advice.

Today we managed to get an arm down the weed hatch (which was no mean feat as its a semitrad and so positioned under the boaters standing area) one nut and bolt could be felt at the top of the rudder and as far down as we could reach we could feel no others. The bolt goes right through the rudder and was found to be loose. Because only one arm could get down there it won't be possible to tighten the nut onto the bolt.

Looking at our options we could have someone in the water with waders on and either do the job from there or have one in the water and one in the boat doing an end each.

Do you think with this configuration will there be more bolts down the rudder or will there just be the one?

But we are now assured that the rudder will not fall off thank god but it still needs sorting

Once again any advice suggestions or practical help will be gratefully received.

Pete and Helen

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Thanks for all the advice.

Today we managed to get an arm down the weed hatch (which was no mean feat as its a semitrad and so positioned under the boaters standing area) one nut and bolt could be felt at the top of the rudder and as far down as we could reach we could feel no others. The bolt goes right through the rudder and was found to be loose. Because only one arm could get down there it won't be possible to tighten the nut onto the bolt.

Looking at our options we could have someone in the water with waders on and either do the job from there or have one in the water and one in the boat doing an end each.

Do you think with this configuration will there be more bolts down the rudder or will there just be the one?

But we are now assured that the rudder will not fall off thank god but it still needs sorting

Once again any advice suggestions or practical help will be gratefully received.

Pete and Helen

There's often two. If you can tie a string for security to a long flat combination type ring spanner that fits the bolts head then load the spanners ring with silicon and put it on the bolt head carefully and it should stay there, then put another spanner onto the nut and turn it very gently clockwise until the bolt heads spanner brings up hard up under the uxter plate and then carry on tightening the nut. Don't forget the security string on both spanners.

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you might find the hole has worn and tightening the bolt will not fix it, stick the boat in a short shallow pound, run off a bit of water, jump in, drill hole nice and round again, fit nice new tight bolt, carry on as though nothing happened.

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Thanks for that, we will be giving something a try next weekend. Probably what you suggest. We will get it sorted and really appreciate all your ideas

Pete and Helen

As Bee says the holes and bolts are probably worn so if you can find a bit of shallow water by the bank, you can stand in it and work with both hands.

Just tightening it well will do the job temporarily and halt further wear though I'd replace the bolt- bolts with new shanked bolts, that will mean roughly 3/4 of the bolt being plain from under the head down and the last 1/4 or so being threaded as I wouldn't be surprised if fully threaded bolts have been used. You would need to remove a bolt to work out which shanked bolts to buy.

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The photo from Scholar Gypsy perfectly illustrates the normal arrangement. I have met two boats recently that have unseated their rudder by hitting the bank (beware of that) or an underwater obstruction. If so, it's a fairly simple job to fix. You may find that passing a line through the hole in the rudder will help in manipulating it.

 

Edited to say "Oops, I didn't read all the replies before I stuck my oar in"

Edited by Jigsawged
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Well managed to just about sort the rudder out. Set of cheap waders off auction site and a trip to the ironmongers.

Once in the water I could get hold of the top bolt and it was loose by about 1/2 inch of thread. it also felt like the hole had elongated as well which was no surprise. Tried tightening the nut but once it got to the point that it should have been tight it just spun on the bolt. So took the bolt out and what a mess it was, rusty and the thread all mashed. The nut on it was just a standard nut with no locking on it so it was no surprise it had come lose.

Got a 10mm (shaft size) bolt that was part threaded to add a bit of meat and prevent any more damage to the hole, penny washers on each side and a nylock nut to finish. Once tightened up the play in the rudder was down to only about 5deg which I should think is about normal. Even with my long arms I couldn't get both hands on the bottom bolt without the risk of flooding my waders, so had to hold 2 spanners and try by feel to get them on, luckily I found I could manage to tighten the nut up although as soon as I can I will be replacing that with the same arrangement I did at the top.

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Got a 10mm (shaft size) bolt that was part threaded to add a bit of meat and prevent any more damage to the hole, penny washers on each side and a nylock nut to finish. Once tightened up the play in the rudder was down to only about 5deg which I should think is about normal. Even with my long arms I couldn't get both hands on the bottom bolt without the risk of flooding my waders, so had to hold 2 spanners and try by feel to get them on, luckily I found I could manage to tighten the nut up although as soon as I can I will be replacing that with the same arrangement I did at the top.

 

[pedant ON]

That's what a 'bolt' is - part threaded, otherwise it's technically a machine screw. Doesn't help when it has a screw head or a hex head.

Confusing innit?

[Pedant OFF]

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