Liveaboard Thames

[Jerra]

So you're very selective about your "getting something for nothing" then?

 

I live in my camper van - should I pay council tax? Who should I pay it to?

 

I did make the point way back in the "discussion" that those that are truly CCers (or their land equivalent do present a problem) and asked somebody to suggest ways they could contribute and local income tax which was then divided out to local authorities was suggested.

 

However this is again straying away from my original point which was anybody who is residential in an area (CMing, residential mooring, leisure mooring but in actual fact has no other abode etc and their land based equivalents) is getting quite a lot for nothing if they aren't paying council tax as they still expect for example local emergency services and police to look after them.

 

As yet nobody has IMO given me a reasonable explanation of how they aren't getting something for nothing. To come back to the point I originally made if a proportion of the population aren't paying their local taxes then it costs the rest of the population a little more (or they don't get as good a service as not as much money is coming in to pay for the level of service).

 

I don't feel it is a difficult concept or an unreasonable or unfair concept, you obviously do.

[Chris Pink]

What I don't understand is you have decided of all the 'somethings for nothing' in the world this is the one that makes you grumpy. I point out there are many other 'something for nothings'. For instance a visitor to an area pays nothing for local services but presumably expects the use of local services.

 

Of which emergency services and police are not included, please get your facts right or people will think you are just spouting bullshit.

 

The government, in its wisdom, has decided what the criteria to collect local taxation, you in your wisdom, want a form of taxation that not so long ago caused riots and so much protest it was dropped like a hot brick.

 

I must admit the churlish of your "something for nothing" really disgusts me.

[luctor et emergo]

He's starting to regurgitate his argument Chris, clearly a 'one trick pony' this one. Not worth bothering with. I will sleep easy, knowing that he is paying for all the services that I enjoy..

[Jerra]

What I don't understand is you have decided of all the 'somethings for nothing' in the world this is the one that makes you grumpy. I point out there are many other 'something for nothings'. For instance a visitor to an area pays nothing for local services but presumably expects the use of local services.

 

Of which emergency services and police are not included, please get your facts right or people will think you are just spouting bullshit.

 

The government, in its wisdom, has decided what the criteria to collect local taxation, you in your wisdom, want a form of taxation that not so long ago caused riots and so much protest it was dropped like a hot brick.

 

I must admit the churlish of your "something for nothing" really disgusts me.

 

There you go again misrepresenting me.

 

Nothing I have suggested comes anywhere near a poll tax. The poll tax was a payment per individual all I have suggested is the current tax method is applied evenly to those resident in the area. I have admitted true itinerants are difficult and in a different position.

 

I am not in a discussion about all the different possible "somethings for nothing" I am in a discussion about (wait a minute I will look at the thread heading) "Living Aboard Thames"

 

Strange that when others have mentioned these services further up the thread you didn't accuse them of spouting BS. Whether I have picked the correct examples or not the principle remains it is impossible to live in an area and not benefit from things done with public funds raised by council tax.

 

The point about visitors doesn't hold water as everybody (well shall we settle for most) is at sometime a visitor and benefits from "free" services for the short time they are there on a reciprocal basis with visitors to their area.

 

I find your attitude which suggests you shouldn't be paying your share disgusting but there you are.

 

With regard to the comment that has just come in about a one trick pony I am only "regurgitating" my position because people keep coming back and querying it. I am not likely to go out and look for new reasons as to why I hold my view am I? Neither am I likely to be more than amused at replies such as the one about sleeping well knowing I am paying for others services. That is highly amusing coming from somebody who resorts to such tactics as "one trick pony" comments.

 

Incidentally your continued protestation about my stance makes me wonder am I touching a nerve? Are you resident in an area and not contributing is that why you are getting upset about my position?

[Chris Pink]

The poll tax was a payment per individual all I have suggested is the current tax method is applied evenly to those resident in the area.

 

You really can't see the contradiction in your statement?

[Jerra]

You really can't see the contradiction in your statement?

 

I am not suggesting double council tax only council tax if that is your residence. Are you suggesting a tax per person is the same as a tax per residence?

[oarfish]

Local authorities that I have lived in for a week or more recently (in the last year).

Manchester

Trafford

Frodsham

Macclesfield

Northwitch

Derbyshire

Tameside

Oxford

Banbury

Stoke

Chester and west Cheshire

 

Probably more.. and I don't even CC. About the only way you could collect is by having checkpoints on the canal or a local sales tax. Given in some of those boroughs all you can get near the canal is stale white bread and lager even that is hardly going to pay for wear and tear on the pavement and the carrier bag of rubbish I left in the bin.

Edited April 12, 2013 by oarfish

[Jerra]

Local authorities that I have lived in for a week or more recently (in the last year).

 

Manchester

Trafford

Frodsham

Macclesfield

Northwitch

Derbyshire

Tameside

Oxford

Banbury

Stoke

Chester and west Cheshire

 

Probably more.. and I don't even CC. About the only way you could collect is by having checkpoints on the canal or a local sales tax. Given in some of those boroughs all you can get near the canal is stale white bread and lager even that is hardly going to pay for wear and tear on the pavement and the carrier bag of rubbish I left in the bin.

You appear to be missing my point. If you don't CC then you should/would be paying a council tax somewhere. As a visitor you get to use the facilities provided on a reciprocal basis. People from area A visit area B People from area B happen to be visiting (at some point) area C etc. So everybody is getting use of facilities on a shared basis.

 

I have admitted CCers (and their land based equivalents) are a problem for any system and I have asked others to make suggestions. One has been offered - a form of local income tax.

 

Incidentally what you get near the canal isn't the only things being provided I am sure people stray as far as pubs and shops along roads and pavements.

[bizzard]

A little bit of history. Once upon a time hudreds of years ago a certain king Thingamejig ''can't rember the chaps name'' tried to impose a ''Pol. peoples tax'' of 1 penny per head to fund some war or other, a war I think against some rich whatsanames dotted about in England which were getting too rich, too big for their boots and so becoming too much of a threat to this king. Well his Pol tax failed completely, virtually everyone refused to pay it, mainly all the poor whatsits, heads literally rolled over it but it had to be dropped. Margaret Thatcher either didn't know her history, forgot it or forgot it on purpose and her second attempt at it also failed.

Edited April 12, 2013 by bizzard

[Jerra]

Where does the continual reference to poll tax come from? A poll tax is based on number of people in a "property" council Tax isn't and as far as I can see is always in the lowest band for any form of movable residence be it caravan or boat.

[eightpot]

You appear to be missing my point. If you don't CC then you should/would be paying a council tax somewhere.

 

 

That's quite a large assumption. It is entirely possible to be not be subject to council tax and be within the law. Whether you choose that lifestyle or not is you choice.

[oarfish]

You appear to be missing my point. If you don't CC then you should/would be paying a council tax somewhere.

 

I am not officially living there, it's greenbelt in Oxfordshire. Not a chance in hell of planning permission for a bunch of ditch gypsies. I actually think tax avoidance is a necessary and moral act, but I couldn't pay this one even if I wanted to.

 

Incidentally what you get near the canal isn't the only things being provided I am sure people stray as far as pubs and shops along roads and pavements.

 

Not in Stoke you don't.

Edited April 12, 2013 by oarfish

[Jerra]

Apologies for top posting. Yet again I can't get the cursor to click in the white below the quote.

 

Fortunately many people don't agree otherwise there wouldn't have been the outcry against Starbucks etc.

I actually think tax avoidance is a necessary and moral act,

[Steilsteven]

Actually, anyone who lives aboard on a leisure mooring is ''getting away'' with very little with regards taxation.

Leisure moorings are subject to the full rate of vat, whereas ''Houseboat'' moorings are exempt.

 

Also, at least in theory, they'd be unable to claim 100% domestic use when buying diesel.

 

So, although not contributing directly to local services, they are contributing to taxation as a whole.

 

Keith

[Paul C]

Actually, anyone who lives aboard on a leisure mooring is ''getting away'' with very little with regards taxation.

Leisure moorings are subject to the full rate of vat, whereas ''Houseboat'' moorings are exempt.

 

Also, at least in theory, they'd be unable to claim 100% domestic use when buying diesel.

 

So, although not contributing directly to local services, they are contributing to taxation as a whole.

 

Keith

 

Its entirely possible to be on a leisure mooring, and for example only visit your boat a couple of days a week (say in the winter) and not go anywhere, therefore entirely justifiably make a 100% declaration on the diesel you use, because you'd run the engine for battery charging, hot water and central heating etc.

[Steilsteven]

Its entirely possible to be on a leisure mooring, and for example only visit your boat a couple of days a week (say in the winter) and not go anywhere, therefore entirely justifiably make a 100% declaration on the diesel you use, because you'd run the engine for battery charging, hot water and central heating etc.

The way I understand the legislation is, that only those that are able to prove they have a houseboat mooring can make a 100% declaration.

 

Keith

[madcat]

jerra,do us a favour and get beamed up by aliens to Tory heaven and take some of your pocket fascist views with you. if you are looking for parasites you need to look higher up the food chain ,state funded funerals for the wealthy springs immediatly to mind.

We all have too much tax to pay and anybody who thinks paying even more wants their bumps felt ,sometimes I feel that the inland waterways are descending into a kind of Daily Mail hellhole.

Yes this is a niggly post from me because all this stuff keeps rearing its ugly head and no good will come of it.

[Jerra]

We all have too much tax to pay and anybody who thinks paying even more wants their bumps felt ,s

 

It is precisely this reason that I feel tax needs to be spread equitably. I am not suggesting everybody pays more tax in fact if you read the posts carefully I suggest it would slightly reduce council tax if everyone who is supposed to pay council tax did.

 

To me not a Tory idea (I have never voted Tory) just an idea of what I consider to be fair. If people didn't keep coming back and trying to change what I feel is my right to my opinion the matter would have ended long ago.

 

However I am not the sort of person to not respond to "one trick pony" and "bumps felt" posts. I am entitled to my views and as a forum for discussion I am entitled to post them and reply to others who reply to me.

 

Sorry if that is against a forum rule I haven't noticed.

[Paul C]

The way I understand the legislation is, that only those that are able to prove they have a houseboat mooring can make a 100% declaration.

 

Keith

 

The way I understood the legislation, is its the boater's responsibility to make their declaration. No proof is required to justify the split the boater chooses, although it seems some people keep lots of evidence etc.

[Homer 123]

Just because someone continuously cruises doesn't necessarily mean they don't pay council tax anyway. Council tax is on a property. Therefore I use my sister's address, ,y post goes there, I'm on the electoral role there, I take my rubbish, washing and ironing there. So as there are 3 adults plus me 'living' there I pay a quarter of the council tax.

[Steilsteven]

The way I understood the legislation, is its the boater's responsibility to make their declaration. No proof is required to justify the split the boater chooses, although it seems some people keep lots of evidence etc.

 

From HMRC website:-

 

 

4.7 I am a residential boat owner and only move my boat a short distance occasionally

We recognise that there are boat owners whose primary, or only, residence is their boat. Some of these will be at fixed moorings or move just a very short distance along the tow path from permanent moorings. If you live aboard your craft permanently and hold certain documentation, such as a Houseboat Licence, Residential Mooring Licence, Council Tax bill in respect of the mooring, or other documentation, such as invoices or bills which provide proof of permanent residency, you may purchase all your fuel at the rebated rate (as if you owned a commercial vessel). You are not required to make a declaration.

However, it will be your responsibility to ensure that you hold the requisite documentation should we wish to check this at a future date.

top ^

4.8 I am a continuous cruiser

If you are a ‘continuous cruiser’ you may not claim all of your fuel for non propulsion purposes under the arrangements for residential boat owners. Even if you reside permanently on your craft, you must declare your actual intended usage for propulsion.

[mersey barge]

WOW.

 

Dont know how this twisted into a council tax issue.

 

Anyway I have confirmed with some councils on the Thames that they havent and wouldnt give planning permission for end of garden moorings. So as we are not keen on marina's we wil have to change our plans.

 

As to the post about what difference being civil servants makes, well, can you imagine your job prospects after a headline in a newspaper saying 'Civil Servant living illegally on boat.'

 

Anyway we would have and would have wanted to pay council tax. It the fair thing to do. I guess the people that dont pay council may be the same people who boycotted Amazon, Google and Starbucks for only paying the tax they legally had too!! Only a wind up!!!

 

Anyway we are re-looking at our plans and will do something different.

[ditchcrawler]

From HMRC website:-

 

 

4.7 I am a residential boat owner and only move my boat a short distance occasionally

We recognise that there are boat owners whose primary, or only, residence is their boat. Some of these will be at fixed moorings or move just a very short distance along the tow path from permanent moorings. If you live aboard your craft permanently and hold certain documentation, such as a Houseboat Licence, Residential Mooring Licence, Council Tax bill in respect of the mooring, or other documentation, such as invoices or bills which provide proof of permanent residency, you may purchase all your fuel at the rebated rate (as if you owned a commercial vessel). You are not required to make a declaration.

However, it will be your responsibility to ensure that you hold the requisite documentation should we wish to check this at a future date.

top ^

4.8 I am a continuous cruiser

If you are a ‘continuous cruiser’ you may not claim all of your fuel for non propulsion purposes under the arrangements for residential boat owners. Even if you reside permanently on your craft, you must declare your actual intended usage for propulsion.

Here is where the above information came from

[Paul C]

From HMRC website:-

 

 

4.7 I am a residential boat owner and only move my boat a short distance occasionally

We recognise that there are boat owners whose primary, or only, residence is their boat. Some of these will be at fixed moorings or move just a very short distance along the tow path from permanent moorings. If you live aboard your craft permanently and hold certain documentation, such as a Houseboat Licence, Residential Mooring Licence, Council Tax bill in respect of the mooring, or other documentation, such as invoices or bills which provide proof of permanent residency, you may purchase all your fuel at the rebated rate (as if you owned a commercial vessel). You are not required to make a declaration.

However, it will be your responsibility to ensure that you hold the requisite documentation should we wish to check this at a future date.

top ^

4.8 I am a continuous cruiser

If you are a ‘continuous cruiser’ you may not claim all of your fuel for non propulsion purposes under the arrangements for residential boat owners. Even if you reside permanently on your craft, you must declare your actual intended usage for propulsion.

 

The situation I described, doesn't fit into either of those two categories. There's a lot of different ways of using a boat!

[Steilsteven]

The situation I described, doesn't fit into either of those two categories. There's a lot of different ways of using a boat!

 

Which is why you cannot legally make a 0% propulsion declaration.

 

Keith