N/B Prince

[tony collins]

We at the Coventry Canal Society have been asked to help someone attached to the Historic Narrow Boat Owners club to see if we can locate the n/b "Prince" She was at one time owned by Bert Dunkley (Mtr Coventry Canal) and used on the society's behalf many times and some times towed the "Friendship" owned by Joe and Rose Skinner to various rallies and boat gatherings.

I would be grateful for anyone with any info to contact me with the details.

 

Tony

[khaffra]

We at the Coventry Canal Society have been asked to help someone attached to the Historic Narrow Boat Owners club to see if we can locate the n/b "Prince" She was at one time owned by Bert Dunkley (Mtr Coventry Canal) and used on the society's behalf many times and some times towed the "Friendship" owned by Joe and Rose Skinner to various rallies and boat gatherings.

I would be grateful for anyone with any info to contact me with the details.

 

Tony

 

There is a FMC Prince still registered so if that is the boat it is still around somewhere, have you tryed the list that come out from the HNOC each year?

I also had a feeling that Blue Nun that used to be owned by Canalshopman was one half of a boat called Prince.

[alan_fincher]

We at the Coventry Canal Society have been asked to help someone attached to the Historic Narrow Boat Owners club to see if we can locate the n/b "Prince" She was at one time owned by Bert Dunkley (Mtr Coventry Canal) and used on the society's behalf many times and some times towed the "Friendship" owned by Joe and Rose Skinner to various rallies and boat gatherings.

I would be grateful for anyone with any info to contact me with the details.

 

Tony

Tony,

 

I don't know if it's accurate, or not, but according to this site....

 

Link to Ammodels page

 

that particular Prince was a former Barlows boat, and the info given says it was broken up, (but doesn't say when).

 

Funnily enough I was only just reading an old Waterways World that had a feature on the Skinners, and shows Friendship breasted up alongside Bert Dunkley's Prince. However, not enough of Prince shows to see it's lines, and what type of boat it was.......

 

Alan

[Hairy-Neil]

There is a FMC Prince still registered so if that is the boat it is still around somewhere, have you tryed the list that come out from the HNOC each year?

I also had a feeling that Blue Nun that used to be owned by Canalshopman was one half of a boat called Prince.

 

I think the boat you're looking for could be the W. J. Yarwoods built ex. Grand Union C.C.C. Royalty Class motor boat "Prince". I've seen it about in recent years but don't know of its current whereabouts.

 

Also you are confused about the "Blue Nun". It is the stern half (I think it is actually less than half) of the Grand Union C.C.C. Star Class Little Woolwich Butty "Cetus". When it was sold off by G.U.C.C.C. it became the Samuel Barlows "Princess". That said I understand it does have actual royalty connections....... the butty, pre cutting in half, having been used as the official boat at a canal reopening ceremony.

Edited September 8, 2006 by Hairy-Neil

[khaffra]

Thanks Hairy Neal it was indeed Princess not Prince.

 

There are 2 Prince's listed on the WCBS list of boats as well.

http://www.wcbs.org.uk/autoindex.htm?/soci...ort-history.htm

[tony collins]

I think the boat you're looking for is the W. J. Yarwoods built ex. Grand Union C.C.C. Royalty Class motor boat "Prince". I've seen it about in recent years but don't know of its current whereabouts.

 

 

 

Thanks everyone, this is the boat we'are looking for. Last time I saw her she had green cabin panels, but that was about fifteen years ago!

 

 

Tony

[alan_fincher]

Thanks everyone, this is the boat we'are looking for. Last time I saw her she had green cabin panels, but that was about fifteen years ago!

Tony

 

Sorry, but....

 

I'm 99% certain that the "Prince" I've seen in pictures badged up as Bert Dunkley's, and towing Friendship on the rally circuit is NOT the ex-GUCCCo one that I've seen on my recent travels, (still in a light green livery, I seem to remember).

 

The ex-GUCCCo one, as Neil identifies, was a Royalty class motor, (but see below!).

 

Because of the exceptionally deep hull sides on the Royalty boats, they can only have very shallow boatmans cabins on top, (which also look surprisingly narrow across the rear end). They have a quite individual appearance.

 

The pictures of Bert Dunkley's Prince with Friendship show a totally different cabin shape, tall and broad across the rear, and also with no perceptible upwards rise to the rear, as is the norm on a GUCC boat.

 

It looks far more like the cabin on a typical Barlows motor, (like the regularly published pictures of "Gort", for instance), so I'm far more inclined to think that's the likely origin, (as suggested on the Ammodels link I posted).

 

Moreover in the picture I have, Bert Dunkley's boat clearly shows "registered at Daventry, number 521" on its cabinside, which exactly matches what's in that list.

 

The GUCC Royalty Prince is recorded as registerd at Rickmansworth, number 23.

 

I'm convinced these were two completely different boats, but unfortunately the picture I have of Tony Dunkley's one does not show any hull-side. If it did, I think it would show a wooden boat, not a steel one, (which would prove it, of course....).

 

I think the boat you're looking for is the W. J. Yarwoods built ex. Grand Union C.C.C. Royalty Class motor boat "Prince".

 

Neil,

 

Are you absolutely sure about the builder.

 

The information I have, is that "Prince" was one of the two Royalty motors built by James Pollock & Sons at Faversham in 1931. (The other being "Henry", I think).

 

The 4 Yarwoods ones seem to have been "Duke, "Edward", "Victoria" (regularly moored in the Tring area of the GU) and "William".

 

I'll get my anorak .....

 

[Edited to correct where I had "steel" and "wooden" reversed, thereby making that bit complete gibberish...]

Edited September 7, 2006 by alan_fincher

[Hairy-Neil]

 

Neil,

 

Are you absolutely sure about the builder.

 

The information I have, is that "Prince" was one of the two Royalty motors built by James Pollock & Sons at Faversham in 1931. (The other being "Henry", I think).

 

The 4 Yarwoods ones seem to have been "Duke, "Edward", "Victoria" (regularly moored in the Tring area of the GU) and "William".

 

I'll get my anorak .....

 

 

 

You're right, my mistake.......

[Paul H]

I think we're getting in a muddle here.

 

I know of 3 ex-working motors called Prince that have been around in recent years:

 

Ex-GUCCC Royalty Prince in all steel - semi-converted and last seen at Wheaton Aston on the Shroppy in March.

 

Ex-FMC steamer Prince (iron sides formerly wooden bottom but maybe now replaced in steel) owned by Malcolm Webster (the restorer of Saturn) of Malkins Bank, Sandbach

 

Ex-Barlows Prince, all wooden badly hogged and in quite poor condition in the late 70s. This is certainly the boat once owned by Bert Dunkley. I feel sure it will have been broken up but you could try the HNBOC archivist Jan Deuchar via webmaster@hnboc.org.uk for confirmation.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Paul H

Edited September 7, 2006 by Paul H

[tony collins]

Ex-Barlows Prince, all wooden badly hogged and in quite poor condition in the late 70s. This is certainly the boat once owned by Bert Dunkley. I feel sure it will have been broken up but you could try the HNBOC archivist Jan Deuchar via webmaster@hnboc.org.uk for confirmation.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Paul H

 

Thanks for that. But it is my understanding that the HNBOC have asked us if we know anything! I have another iron in the fire, an ex work colleague part owned "Aquarius" the trip boat around the same time as Bert had Prince, so I have mailed him to see if he knows anything.

 

I must say I am very grateful to everyone for the info posted so quickly after the question was first raised.

 

Tony

Edited September 7, 2006 by tony collins

[alan_fincher]

I think we're getting in a muddle here.

Well, I don't think I'm in a muddle, as I completely agree with what you are saying.

 

Now you confirm the "Prince" they are looking for was in poor condition towards the end of the 70s, I suspect the information I found for my original post that it no longer exists is probably correct.....

 

But as you say, an enquiry along the lines you suggest may confirm this.

 

By the way....

 

Other than knowing the name "Bert" Dunkley, and that he was a leading champion of the Coventry Canal, I know little of the man, or his background.

 

Is there are relationship with the Tony Dunkley that used to operate a pair of boats on the Grand Union in the 1970s, I wonder ? It's not that common a surname, so I'm guessing there probably was ?

[roger]

Prince was definitely broken up, as I have also tried to find out her wherabouts too. She was not in a very good condition by the time the 1970's arrived. She was broken into and suffered some vandalism and I think that put Bert off the idea of getting the boat into A1 condition. Indeed as Works Party Organiser I do remember operating Prince complete with the graffiti that was written on her.

 

People know little of the man? Well Bert was a well liked school teacher at Wyken for a start. Like a lot of Coventry canal memebers who also ran the RHCS, Bert was not interested in canals at first. He was interested in railways. He was the only person I met who had ever travelled by train to Hulme End (and back) and this was on the very last train in March 1934.

Edited September 7, 2006 by roger

[dcruk]

Seen on the coventry on august 17th . Royalty class , very nice too !! Dave

 

[roger]

Seen on the coventry on august 17th . Royalty class , very nice too !! Dave

 

Nice pic, nice GUCC boat, but not the same one I'm afraid. My photos of Berts boat show an entirely different one to the one you have posted.

 

Thanks for that. But it is my understanding that the HNBOC have asked us if we know anything! I have another iron in the fire, an ex work colleague part owned "Aquarius" the trip boat around the same time as Bert had Prince, so I have mailed him to see if he knows anything.

 

Tony

 

Aquarius was built in the early 1980's and operated from Longford. Certainly was around in the later years that Bert had Prince.

Edited September 7, 2006 by roger

[Hairy-Neil]

Nice pic, nice GUCC boat, but not the same one I'm afraid. My photos of Berts boat show an entirely different one to the one you have posted.

Aquarius was built in the early 1980's and operated from Longford. Certainly was around in the later years that Bert had Prince.

 

 

Thats the G.U.C.C.C. Royalty Class motor, "Prince" and the photo confirms that its definitely not a Yarwoods built boat.

[roger]

 

Tried to find a reasonble longside photo of Prince (its actually a slide I had to project on to the wall and use my digital camera to copy the image, hence poor quality and cropping.) This one is from I think November of 1976. You'll see the different style of cabin and hull. And also notice the hull is sagging like so many other wooden working boats.

 

We had just arrived at Bishop St basin with the mud boat, and the weather was so nice I hurried round onto the ringway footbridge and took this photo. One might wonder where the mud boat is. It was always common to tie it up underneath the warehouse overall roof on the offside.

Edited September 7, 2006 by roger

[Paul H]

Thanks Roger - fascinating photo and thanks for going to all that trouble. Something that might not be too clear from your picture is that Bert Dunkley's Prince had an extra cabin but curiously not joined on to the engine room but with a 4ft gap between the two- which was pretty unusual and distinctive. The boat despite a badly hogged and soggy hull was always smartly painted H R Dunkley (H for Herbert) - a google search confims he was not related to Tony Dunkley. A list I have suggests the boat may have survived in a derelict state until as late as the early 1990s on the bank at Stoke Hammond until broken up. I certainly remember boating past such an ex-wooden motor high and dry in this area but it didn't have a name or distinguishing features.

 

Bert Dunkley in addition to being owner of Prince and the founder of the Coventry Canal Society was also a prolific historic researcher and much of his valuable work survives in the Waterways Trust's archives. Unfortunately much was also apparantly sadly destroyed by his family who did not appreciate its significance on his death (in his late 80s) in c1998.

 

You mentioned the mud boat. It is my understanding that this might have been an old ice breaker. Do you have a picture and do you know what happened to it?

 

Regards,

 

Paul

[tony collins]

 

You mentioned the mud boat. It is my understanding that this might have been an old ice breaker. Do you have a picture and do you know what happened to it?

 

Regards,

 

Paul

 

If this is the CCS mud boat that survived until about 1990. Then I suggest it might have been the "John Sinclair", half of I know not what. It was a composite hull still having a distinctly flat elm bottom, so I think it unlikely that it was an icebreaker. I do know what happened to the JS, it was scrapped after a lifting accident split the (paper thin) hull.

 

Hitherto we had used the boat for our monthly canal clearances, certainly towed by "Prince" and boats belonging to other members of the society. One of these was "Outlaw" a Colecraft boat which some of you may remember as being owned by Brian Saunders, whose life changing move to Crete was chronicled on TV.

 

Tony

Edited September 7, 2006 by tony collins

[roger]

Thanks Roger - fascinating photo and thanks for going to all that trouble. Something that might not be too clear from your picture is that Bert Dunkley's Prince had an extra cabin but curiously not joined on to the engine room but with a 4ft gap between the two- which was pretty unusual and distinctive. The boat despite a badly hogged and soggy hull was always smartly painted H R Dunkley (H for Herbert) - a google search confims he was not related to Tony Dunkley. A list I have suggests the boat may have survived in a derelict state until as late as the early 1990s on the bank at Stoke Hammond until broken up. I certainly remember boating past such an ex-wooden motor high and dry in this area but it didn't have a name or distinguishing features.

 

Bert Dunkley in addition to being owner of Prince and the founder of the Coventry Canal Society was also a prolific historic researcher and much of his valuable work survives in the Waterways Trust's archives. Unfortunately much was also apparantly sadly destroyed by his family who did not appreciate its significance on his death (in his late 80s) in c1998.

 

You mentioned the mud boat. It is my understanding that this might have been an old ice breaker. Do you have a picture and do you know what happened to it?

 

Regards,

 

Paul

 

Yes that is right I dug out another slide and here's a pic of Prince on the return trip to Hawkesbury, we stopped at Cash's (br 2) to clear some rubbish. The separate cabin and gap can be clearly seen. (as well as the Courtaulds Chimney) Some will notice that there is no longer a wall separating the houses and the canal.

 

 

The mud boat was defintely not an ice breaker. It was a full length, 72 footer, I think it came from the BCN, but that doesnt mean it was an ice breaker. Could have been used for ice breaking - but not actually designed for that purpose if you know what I mean. It may have been a sort of joey boat. I do have one or two pics of it but there are nearly 3000 slides in my posession!!

 

As well as Outlaw, Michael Heath's boat (dont remember its name) was also used on the odd occasion in the early days of work party clearances.

 

Not 1998. Bert died June 18 1997. He was 87. I still have the item from the CET. It does explain Bert's early interest in trains and why he changed to the canals, as well as his early life etc.

Edited September 8, 2006 by roger

[alan_fincher]

Thanks to those who have taken the trouble to fill in some of the background on Bert Dunkley, (including in PMs received).

 

I didn't find too much by Googling for the man, so am indebted to those providing a bit more background.

 

It sounds pretty conclusive that his boat didn't survive to me, unfortunately.

 

A nice picture of the Royalty class Prince too!. It gives me fond memories of my recent holiday - we must have passed it about a fortnight before that picture was taken, I think.

[tony collins]

Yes that is right I dug out another slide and here's a pic of Prince on the return trip to Hawkesbury, we stopped at Cash's (br 2) to clear some rubbish. The separate cabin and gap can be clearly seen. (as well as the Courtaulds Chimney) Some will notice that there is no longer a wall separating the houses and the canal.

 

The mud boat was defintely not an ice breaker. It was a full length, 72 footer, I think it came from the BCN, but that doesnt mean it was an ice breaker. Could have been used for ice breaking - but not actually designed for that purpose if you know what I mean. It may have been a sort of joey boat. I do have one or two pics of it but there are nearly 3000 slides in my posession!!

 

As well as Outlaw, Michael Heath's boat (dont remember its name) was also used on the odd occasion in the early days of work party clearances.

 

Not 1998. Bert died June 18 1997. He was 87. I still have the item from the CET. It does explain Bert's early interest in trains and why he changed to the canals, as well as his early life etc.

 

Yes Cash's looks a bit different now, (I was giving a guided walk along here this very afternoon) the occupants of the "houses" now have a very fine view of the canal with the wall replaced by railings.

 

The mud boat that I remember was definitely half a boat, I seem to remember the then treasurer telling me that the society bought a full length boat for £400, cut it in half and sold the other half for £400!

 

Bert's dedication was extrordinary. When he learned that shipment records at (I think) Tipton were going to be destroyed by BW he copied them out by hand, these now reside at Gloucester. I consider it an honour to have known him.

 

I joined the society in 1990 and Michael Heath had gone by then, although he too took a lot of photographs along the canal, some of which were reproduced the the book "Coventry's Waterway"

 

Tony

[Richard Fairhurst]

Prince was definitely broken up, as I have also tried to find out her wherabouts too. She was not in a very good condition by the time the 1970's arrived.

I have a niggling suspicion that Prince might have been in Jem Bates' yard on the Aylesbury Arm (where we're restoring Hagley) a few years ago. Nothing more definite, but you could contact Jem: http://www.batesboatyard.co.uk/

[roger]

Yes Cash's looks a bit different now, (I was giving a guided walk along here this very afternoon) the occupants of the "houses" now have a very fine view of the canal with the wall replaced by railings.

 

The mud boat that I remember was definitely half a boat, I seem to remember the then treasurer telling me that the society bought a full length boat for £400, cut it in half and sold the other half for £400!

 

Bert's dedication was extrordinary. When he learned that shipment records at (I think) Tipton were going to be destroyed by BW he copied them out by hand, these now reside at Gloucester. I consider it an honour to have known him.

 

I joined the society in 1990 and Michael Heath had gone by then, although he too took a lot of photographs along the canal, some of which were reproduced the the book "Coventry's Waterway"

 

Tony

 

Tony

NO, our mudboat was defintely a different one. It was defintely a 72 footer open boat, much like the joeys in Birmingham. The one you are talking about was the next one, which replaced our dear old 72 footer. Half a mud boat would have not done have the job in the 1970's.

 

I think there is a lot of confusion over the mud boat - defintley before the mid 1980's it was a 72 footer, and it had come from Birmingham at the end of the 1960's I think - it was of later construction all iron and quite battered (but whther it was actually a joey I dont know I would need to find my pics of the mudboat and compare with the joeys)

 

I remember Michael Heath was particularly pissed off at the council's vandalism at Griff Hollow. (Of course we all were!) As Publicity (or press) Officer he sent off quite a few press releases complete with photos he had himself taken showing the before and after situation at the junction with the Coventry Canal.

 

Yes Bert spent many hours dong things like that. I remember him recording the local registers (not waterways related which was a surprise.) The early days of the Coventry Canal society was indeed a very interesting period of time to be associated with the waterways!

Edited September 10, 2006 by roger

[Paul H]

Found it!

 

Just by chance, browsing through some old Waterways Worlds I came upon an article about Jem Bates of Puttenham who stated that he had Prince in bits in his yard (presumably just the iron bits) and accurate measurements towards the day when someone rich enough might finance a rebuild. So how about it? You could end up with a boat just as authentic as Raymond!

 

Actually as he also has the bits of my old wooden motor "William" I hope they don't get mixed up! I also wonder where the knees for his new boat (reviewed in Canal Boat) came from.....

 

My reason for banging on about the Coventry Canal Society mudboat possibly being an ex-icebreaker is that of the 6 iron BCN iceboats (Antarctic, Baltic, Empress, Laplander, Oates and Ross only Empress is missing which is amazing as they all over 160 years old now! It was reported as being used in the mid 1970s as a mudboat by the CCS after which it disappeared. The information may of course be wrong but these boats are quite distinctive being round bilged, double-ended and about 30 - 40ft long.

 

Incidentally does anyone know where Oates moors these days?

 

Thanks.

 

Paul H

[roger]

Found it!

 

Just by chance, browsing through some old Waterways Worlds I came upon an article about Jem Bates of Puttenham who stated that he had Prince in bits in his yard (presumably just the iron bits) and accurate measurements towards the day when someone rich enough might finance a rebuild. So how about it? You could end up with a boat just as authentic as Raymond!

 

Actually as he also has the bits of my old wooden motor "William" I hope they don't get mixed up! I also wonder where the knees for his new boat (reviewed in Canal Boat) came from.....

 

My reason for banging on about the Coventry Canal Society mudboat possibly being an ex-icebreaker is that of the 6 iron BCN iceboats (Antarctic, Baltic, Empress, Laplander, Oates and Ross only Empress is missing which is amazing as they all over 160 years old now! It was reported as being used in the mid 1970s as a mudboat by the CCS after which it disappeared. The information may of course be wrong but these boats are quite distinctive being round bilged, double-ended and about 30 - 40ft long.

 

Incidentally does anyone know where Oates moors these days?

 

Thanks.

 

Paul H

 

The only answer would be to ask William Goldie, who was the works party organiser for a number of years before I took over. I dont know if he is still around or even still interested in canals. He went to work in London and promised to return regularly, but he just disappeared form the scene. I dont even suppose there are any pre 1976 members still alive. But I can tell you in 1976 it was not an Ice Breaker, not of the kind of description you have given of the Empress.

Edited September 16, 2006 by roger