Redundancies, benefits and living aboard

[BlueStringPudding]

2013-14 looks like a potentially bleak financial year for a number of organisations and that may mean redundancies. As a Liveaboard boater who may have to consider this eventuality and put some practical measures in place in the next 2-12 months, I'd like to know what, if any benefits or support there is for Liveaboards who get made redundant? For example, as a CC-er I don't pay for a mooring so any sort of housing benefit wouldn't be relevant. And neither would getting a mooring be sensible if applying for work all over the country - which is something I could do being a Liveaboard.

 

But what about bills? I need diesel for my electricity and hot water and to travel to water points and boatyards for services and to stay within the travelling terms of my license - is the cost of diesel something that the benefits system can get their heads round or does it just not "fit" with the paperwork?

 

How about license and insurance? On JSA I wouldn't be able to afford either of those. So would there be a process through which I could claim support with those costs while looking for work, as they are the basic living costs of living on a boat?

 

And of course there's coal and gas and the like.

 

Is there anyone in CWDF world who has claimed any sort of benefits while living aboard and/or CC-Ing? What have people found when in any kind of benefits claiming position? And has anyone had to give up their boat and get moved into council housing because of needing to claim support?

[Starcoaster]

If you talk to Smelly he may be able to guide you through getting your licence, insurance and BSS costs paid by the housing people, as I understand it it is possible but most local authorities really don't know what to do about boaters and so often just say 'no' when in fact it can be done, they just need to know how.

I think also they can pay (even a non resi) mooring either instead or as well, but the issue also arises if you CC that you will be in a different council's area every few weeks and have to start from scratch each time.

Also in some areas of the Midlands/ South-ish, the waterways chaplains operate who are, as I understand it, very helpful and knowledgable at advising and helping boaters in need to gain access to local authority help and services like this and advising on how to go about it. Perhaps Jenlyn can advise on this one.

Edited March 18, 2013 by Starcoaster

[matty40s]

Higgs will be along in a minute as he is getting bored of keeping the other thread going now.

[Higgs]

Higgs will be along in a minute as he is getting bored of keeping the other thread going now.

 

No I won't, not tonight, anyway.

[Higgs]

If you talk to Smelly he may be able to guide you through getting your licence, insurance and BSS costs paid by the housing people. Perhaps Jenlyn can advise on this one.

[cheshire~rose]

Sorry to hear you may be affected by redundancy. Smelly will be able to advise. I suspect there are others too who can give some valuable pointers. I sincerely hope you do not find it necessary to claim and something suitable in the work department presents itself to you soon.

[Starcoaster]

?? And the comment to go with my quoted post, Higgs?

[Higgs]

?? And the comment to go with my quoted post, Higgs?

 

That would be...(ditto)

[Smelly]

Bsp a lot will depend on how the Universal Credit roll out pans out. 3 weeks from "go live" and the most credible reports have all the IT contractors having been sent home.

 

Best advice is wait until you know what's happening then ask. Sorry not what you want to hear but we live in very interesting times.

 

Universal Credit will remove the local link from Housing Costs hence will have a significant effect for boaters but it may well see substantial delays. They're certainly putting a lot of brakes on while IDS claims "full steam ahead"

 

PS I've had some correspondence with the chaplaincy and although helpful and certainly a resource, knowing who's providing their training I wouldn't take "no" for an answer.

[Waterwayschaplain]

You can claim housing benefit. NABO have a benefits adviser and I have put together all the info I have gathered over the last two years and this may go on Dropbox posted by the Cowley and Uxbridge Boaters group. It was going to go on CRT website after they had it checked by their lawyers but that doesnt seem to be happening. Also, Shelter, the housing charity, have web pages specially for boaters with housing benefit advice.

 

In a nutshell continuous cruisers are eligible for housing benefit. You obviously either need to show proof of low income if you are in work or on benefits of any kind. Most councils will also pay for a mooring and some will even include the cost of a BSC. You may need to apply for a crisis loan for a BSC in some areas. The deliberations of the Government's Commissioners say that a boat does not have to be static. I have worked with quite a few councils over the last couple of years and mostly it has been a question of educating them about the needs of boaters. I have only had to take one council to tribunal and they backed down within minutes of the tribunal commencing. If you are redundant you need to get on JSA. If you try and struggle without any benefit help then you have no proof of income and cannot get the benefit. It is all down to bits of paper I am afraid. The application process is on line or by phone from a Job Centre. The cost of diesel etc would come under your benefit allowance such as JSA but you should raise it with the Job Centre to point out that it is a legitimate travel cost. I have known councils pay insurance as well. It pays for them to keep you on the water. It is much more expensive for them to have to house you on land. Its the same as the BSC - some pay with housing benefit and others would offer you a crisis loan which would have to be paid back over time. When going for a Job Centre appointment take all the relevant paperwork with you, receipts, documents etc so that you have a paper trail that proves what the costs are for you. If you get stuck with an application please do let us know and we will do what we can. The Waterways Chaplaincy is a registered partner with the Dept of Work and Pensions so we have plenty of people to go to for advice and get the latest updates. It doesnt mean that everything is plain sailing (excuse the pun). There is always a process to follow and if you can get to grips with that process it usually works. Hope this helps.

 

 

 

 

2013-14 looks like a potentially bleak financial year for a number of organisations and that may mean redundancies. As a Liveaboard boater who may have to consider this eventuality and put some practical measures in place in the next 2-12 months, I'd like to know what, if any benefits or support there is for Liveaboards who get made redundant? For example, as a CC-er I don't pay for a mooring so any sort of housing benefit wouldn't be relevant. And neither would getting a mooring be sensible if applying for work all over the country - which is something I could do being a Liveaboard.

 

But what about bills? I need diesel for my electricity and hot water and to travel to water points and boatyards for services and to stay within the travelling terms of my license - is the cost of diesel something that the benefits system can get their heads round or does it just not "fit" with the paperwork?

 

How about license and insurance? On JSA I wouldn't be able to afford either of those. So would there be a process through which I could claim support with those costs while looking for work, as they are the basic living costs of living on a boat?

 

And of course there's coal and gas and the like.

 

Is there anyone in CWDF world who has claimed any sort of benefits while living aboard and/or CC-Ing? What have people found when in any kind of benefits claiming position? And has anyone had to give up their boat and get moved into council housing because of needing to claim support?

 

Re the training we had, that came way down the line at least two years after we started. We had to learn by going to Housing Benefit managers and reading all the documents to see what the case stories were and what advice had been given. We work with boaters week in and week out on issues such as this, but , hey, you dont have to take what we say. We are there. If you want to talk, talk. Regarding Universal Credit, it is being introduced in one pilot study at the moment. My information from talking to DWP and to Housing Benefit managers in different councils from the Midlands down is that they dont expect it to be fully in force this year. As we have all seen, there are still issues with it and it is being fine tuned. I wrote to my MP regarding queries about it he was not helpful to put it mildly (Speaker of the House of Commons). My understanding from friends is that even the staff at the Job Centres etc only get basic training and then have to do the rest on line. The downside of Universal Credit in being handled by DWP is that there are a lot of Council staff working in benefits offices who will also become redundant. We will lose the local contacts that we can sit with and talk about individual cases.

 

Bsp a lot will depend on how the Universal Credit roll out pans out. 3 weeks from "go live" and the most credible reports have all the IT contractors having been sent home.

 

Best advice is wait until you know what's happening then ask. Sorry not what you want to hear but we live in very interesting times.

 

Universal Credit will remove the local link from Housing Costs hence will have a significant effect for boaters but it may well see substantial delays. They're certainly putting a lot of brakes on while IDS claims "full steam ahead"

 

PS I've had some correspondence with the chaplaincy and although helpful and certainly a resource, knowing who's providing their training I wouldn't take "no" for an answer.

[MtB]

What a helpful post, Waterwayschaplain.

 

MtB

 

And welcome to the forum, by the way!

[BlueStringPudding]

Thanks, WaterwaysChaplain helpful advice and insights.

[Smelly]

You can claim housing benefit. NABO have a benefits adviser and I have put together all the info I have gathered over the last two years and this may go on Dropbox posted by the Cowley and Uxbridge Boaters group. It was going to go on CRT website after they had it checked by their lawyers but that doesnt seem to be happening. Also, Shelter, the housing charity, have web pages specially for boaters with housing benefit advice.

 

In a nutshell continuous cruisers are eligible for housing benefit. You obviously either need to show proof of low income if you are in work or on benefits of any kind. Most councils will also pay for a mooring and some will even include the cost of a BSC. You may need to apply for a crisis loan for a BSC in some areas. The deliberations of the Government's Commissioners say that a boat does not have to be static. I have worked with quite a few councils over the last couple of years and mostly it has been a question of educating them about the needs of boaters. I have only had to take one council to tribunal and they backed down within minutes of the tribunal commencing. If you are redundant you need to get on JSA. If you try and struggle without any benefit help then you have no proof of income and cannot get the benefit. It is all down to bits of paper I am afraid. The application process is on line or by phone from a Job Centre. The cost of diesel etc would come under your benefit allowance such as JSA but you should raise it with the Job Centre to point out that it is a legitimate travel cost. I have known councils pay insurance as well. It pays for them to keep you on the water. It is much more expensive for them to have to house you on land. Its the same as the BSC - some pay with housing benefit and others would offer you a crisis loan which would have to be paid back over time. When going for a Job Centre appointment take all the relevant paperwork with you, receipts, documents etc so that you have a paper trail that proves what the costs are for you. If you get stuck with an application please do let us know and we will do what we can. The Waterways Chaplaincy is a registered partner with the Dept of Work and Pensions so we have plenty of people to go to for advice and get the latest updates. It doesnt mean that everything is plain sailing (excuse the pun). There is always a process to follow and if you can get to grips with that process it usually works. Hope this helps.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Re the training we had, that came way down the line at least two years after we started. We had to learn by going to Housing Benefit managers and reading all the documents to see what the case stories were and what advice had been given. We work with boaters week in and week out on issues such as this, but , hey, you dont have to take what we say. We are there. If you want to talk, talk. Regarding Universal Credit, it is being introduced in one pilot study at the moment. My information from talking to DWP and to Housing Benefit managers in different councils from the Midlands down is that they dont expect it to be fully in force this year. As we have all seen, there are still issues with it and it is being fine tuned. I wrote to my MP regarding queries about it he was not helpful to put it mildly (Speaker of the House of Commons). My understanding from friends is that even the staff at the Job Centres etc only get basic training and then have to do the rest on line. The downside of Universal Credit in being handled by DWP is that there are a lot of Council staff working in benefits offices who will also become redundant. We will lose the local contacts that we can sit with and talk about individual cases.

 

WWC my concerns arise from the fact that your organisation is a DWP partner and isn't provided with any independent training, hence knowing DWP training as I do I have recommended that people seek an independent view if you advise that an individual won't get an award

 

Btw. you claim that JSA won't be paid without evidence of means which is at best a half truth; 'it's for the Secretary of State to make a decision on the basis of all the available evidence; the claim and declaration should and often does suffice. Have a look at the consolidated version of reg 4 et seq of the claims and payments regs.

 

Ironic that the official rollout program for UC has national implementation from October for new claims yet your internal managers echo national concerns that it won't happen; much as I do ... However, if they conduct a national roll out with the same selective client group as in the pilot areas which as you'll no doubt know has been rumoured then BSP will fall within the demographic targeted...

 

And... Crisis loans don't exist past the end of this month; replacement schemes will be provided at the discretion of the Local Authority and in the two I know about boaters will be troubled by length of residence requirements; 6 months in Wolverhampton and 3 years inSandwell. Individual LAs are not compelled to replace the discretionary Social Fund.

 

It's unwise to second guess this...

Edited March 19, 2013 by Smelly

[Smelly]

I can provide Law Society accredited training on Welfare Reform, rates are negotiable depending on numbers but start at £300 a day plus expenses. It's free bar expenses if your organisation is part of a Mental Health Trust

[Smelly]

UC rolls out in Tameside Oldham, Warrington and Wigan from April.

 

Full rollout for new claimants is slated for October

 

There may be situations where an individual wit h savings or residual income sufficient to cover moorings and licence might need to give careful consideration as to how to claim UC due to the way the income disregards operate. There is an incentive in paying housing costs such as these up front.

 

Due to the complexity of the issue and the fact that advice organisations in the select areas are trialling software to do the calculations I will happily provide a model calculation but will not consider individual circumstances. That might change for nice people come the national implementation.

 

I will reiterate that for lone boaters with a low income it might be worth seeking advice as to whether you'll be better off on UC.

[Andy Kayll]

A neibour of mine has just had a double whammy in lack of income terms. His work has dried up and our mooring provider (BWML) have just forced him onto a HUGE Residential mooring rate (don't get me started on that).

Long and the short is he wants to apply for JSA and HB and has now visited the local HB office twice and the joke shop once both of whom have given him different / conflicting advice on how to fill out the on-line application.

The only thing the bods seem to agree on is he should apply on-line but nobody has been able to give any advice on how to apply as someone living on a boat...

One person at the HB office gave him false hope by saying he should just answere all the questions as close as possible to his situation and that at the end there was a page to write what your actual situation was... Wrong (form has not gone off yet by the way, he stopped when it said submit form).

Another person said he should skip any questions that didn't apply, when John pointed out that you had to fill in everything or it didn't let you move to the next page there was the sound of frantic back peddling and then advice to apply for JSA and HB seporatly but to do it quickly so the two applications arrived on the same day!!!!

Can anyone please please please give a straight advice on how to fill this on-line form in. Or say it has to be done by pen and paper.

 

Andy

[Dave_P]

A neibour of mine has just had a double whammy in lack of income terms. His work has dried up and our mooring provider (BWML) have just forced him onto a HUGE Residential mooring rate (don't get me started on that).

Long and the short is he wants to apply for JSA and HB and has now visited the local HB office twice and the joke shop once both of whom have given him different / conflicting advice on how to fill out the on-line application.

The only thing the bods seem to agree on is he should apply on-line but nobody has been able to give any advice on how to apply as someone living on a boat...

One person at the HB office gave him false hope by saying he should just answere all the questions as close as possible to his situation and that at the end there was a page to write what your actual situation was... Wrong (form has not gone off yet by the way, he stopped when it said submit form).

Another person said he should skip any questions that didn't apply, when John pointed out that you had to fill in everything or it didn't let you move to the next page there was the sound of frantic back peddling and then advice to apply for JSA and HB seporatly but to do it quickly so the two applications arrived on the same day!!!!

Can anyone please please please give a straight advice on how to fill this on-line form in. Or say it has to be done by pen and paper.

 

Andy

And there's the problem with putting everything online. It can never be as responsive and flexible as dealing with a well trained person face-to-face. Sorry I can't give you any advice Andy, but I hope your friend can get things sorted. Has your friend considered leaving the marina and cc'ing to save money?

[Alan de Enfield]

A neibour of mine has just had a double whammy in lack of income terms. His work has dried up and our mooring provider (BWML) have just forced him onto a HUGE Residential mooring rate (don't get me started on that).

 

Whilst it may appear to be a 'double whammy' and the fact his work has 'dried up' is a complication it could be viewed that (if he is a liveaboard) the fact that he has not been paying liveaboard mooring fees for however long has been a bonus.

 

Having paid (and got away with) the wrong rate for some time, is it not 'fair' that he should pay for what he is using / receiving ?

BWML have, some time ago, sent out letters to all moorers explaining their 'tightening up' of mooring grades so it should not have been a shock to him.

 

In my mind declaring you are a grade 1 (or grade 2) moorer and then using it as a full residential mooring is no better than declaring you are a CCer and then becoming a CMer - it is fraud.

[kris88]

I really like the kind compassionate tone of your post Alan. You really know how to make someone feel better about what to them is a difficult situation. I hope you get shown the same kindness should you fall on hard times.

Here's an idea for you why don't we just round them all up and put them in camps

 

Andy as for your friends problem fill the form In to the best of his ability,making shure state situation. Give them a phone number and they will get in touch to query anything they dont understand.I believe you still have to be inter viewed face to face where you can state your case more fully.unless its changed do this as quickly as possible

Regards kris

Edited April 10, 2013 by kris88

[Andy Kayll]

I really like the kind compassionate tone of your post Alan. You really know how to make someone feel better about what to them is a difficult situation. I hope you get shown the same kindness should you fall on hard times.

Here's an idea for you why don't we just round them all up and put them in camps

 

Andy as for your friends problem fill the form In to the best of his ability,making shure state situation. Give them a phone number and they will get in touch to query anything they dont understand.I believe you still have to be inter viewed face to face where you can state your case more fully.unless its changed do this as quickly as possible

Regards kris

Thaks Kris, the fill in as best you can talies with the advice from one of the staff at HB office and have passed this on. Will update once he hears back.

In response to Alan... BWML sold us moorings as Residential when, unbeknown to us, they had no planning permition to do this. Then when it suited them they hiked up the prices by over 30% (over 100% in the case of smaller boats). We have always been very open about the fact we lived here so it's not us have have acted dishonestly.

 

Andy