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Calorifier cooling down


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I had problems with my calorifier / Beta 43 combination. I tried most things , all recommended on here. I seem to have finally solved the problem by changing the engine thermostat for a 82º one. The consensus here was that the water just wasn't getting hot enough during the day to overcome heat loss through the calorifier's insulation overnight.

Although I think thermosyphoning is most of the problem, I really want to get the engine running hotter too. Where did you get the thermostat from? Was it sanctioned by Beta, or did you get it from a motor factors etc? A part number would be great...! Thanks!

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but is one hose at the cyl head and one at or near the water pump? the internal water pump circulate water between the lower block to the head before the thermostat open, or partial open.

 

I guess so. If you are interested you can see the connections on page 10 of the manual

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Although I think thermosyphoning is most of the problem, I really want to get the engine running hotter too. Where did you get the thermostat from? Was it sanctioned by Beta, or did you get it from a motor factors etc? A part number would be great...! Thanks!

 

I got it from a motor factor - Beta didn't seem to think it was needed.

 

Unfortunately the paperwork is in the boat and I won't be going that way for a few weeks. You should be able to remove the current one and take it with you you'll find they should be able to match it. From memory te depth of the one I got was a shade less than the one Beta supply. Don't forget you'll almost certainly need to make a new gasket as well.

 

I'll try to remember to dig out the details for you.

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I had problems with my calorifier / Beta 43 combination. I tried most things , all recommended on here. I seem to have finally solved the problem by changing the engine thermostat for a 82º one. The consensus here was that the water just wasn't getting hot enough during the day to overcome heat loss through the calorifier's insulation overnight.

 

Mine goes cold pretty quickly, its not thermosyphon to the engine due to pipe layout. The water gets plenty hot enough on a run, too hot ;). I havent put NRV in due to wanting a decent shower. what can it be? I'm beginning to think the calorifier can gravity feed elsewhere.

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We have NRVs on both inlets to the calorifier. I even fitted a pressure reducer on the cold feed to the calorifier in case the inward rush of water was managing to be forced well into the area of the hot water and cooling it down. In the end we upped the thermostat value on the engine and the problem seems to have virtually disappeared.

 

The only time we didn't have a problem was when we ddn't use any hot water after we moored up - i.e. left the washing up until the following morning.

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When looking closely at the installation drawings and pictures, I see that the fitting out from engine is at the cyl head, and the return is at the return pipe from cooler tank via oil cooler, and that pipe goes to bottom of engine probably at bottom of circulation pump, hard to see. notis that this pipe goes in at a lower level then the crank case water jacket is at.

Damn I was right again, I hate when that happen.

 

Humbely

Jan

Edited by Dalslandia
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When looking closely at the installation drawings and pictures, I see that the fitting out from engine is at the cyl head, and the return is at the return pipe from cooler tank via oil cooler, and that pipe goes to bottom of engine probably at bottom of circulation pump, hard to see. notis that this pipe goes in at a lower level then the crank case water jacket is at.

Damn I was right again, I hate when that happen.

§1 :captain: is always right.

§2 if :captain: is wrong §1 rules.

Humbely

Jan

Yes, I'll have to give you that one. I just looked at the connection points, not where the pipes went after that!

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Yes, I'll have to give you that one. I just looked at the connection points, not where the pipes went after that!

 

 

But then as I see it, without really have seen it, if the coil in the calorifier is rising, i.e. the calorifier is standing, it will be even worse. thermaly speaking

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But then as I see it, without really have seen it, if the coil in the calorifier is rising, i.e. the calorifier is standing, it will be even worse. thermaly speaking

No in my case its a horizontal calorifier, but of course there is some cms height difference between inlet and outlet.

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No in my case its a horizontal calorifier, but of course there is some cms height difference between inlet and outlet.

 

we still have the difference in hight in the engine, where it is cooling down, and a heat source in the calorifier, if it was rising in the calorifier coil it will be double effect. but this is theory. will crossing the hoses and making a loop or two on them help? we sure know a back valve will help.

It will not be a bad idea to insulate the tubes or hoses with pipe insulation anyway,

 

Was intersting to read about the cooling tank sizing in the Beta manual. I changed my rectangular tubes, that was welded to the outside of the hull some years ago to round SS tubes, that sits some distance from the hull, using the formula of 0,25 sq ft per HP, i now have 1,4 times the needed area around the tubes, and have not had any problem., calc show 2,5" OD tubes would do it, i have 3,5" OD

 

Jan

Edited by Dalslandia
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  • 1 month later...

The thermostat that I bought was purchased from my local branch of Euro Car Parts Ltd.

 

The box, labelled Circoli, implies that it is designed for a Daewoo (car engine?).

 

I think that the Circoli part number is 209 6 001J based on the way the label is presented.

 

The box also has the following numbers on the label; OE No. 17670A78B01 and 808771-11.11.

 

From memory the thermostat is a little smaller than the Beta thermostat but it has been in the boat since the middle of last year and has had the desired effect with regard to retaining the temperature of the water in the calorifier.

 

I've just tried to research each of the numbers on the box but keep bringing up irrelevant results including mention of the thermostat opening at 71º. I can but suggest contacting Euro Car Parts or your local Motor Factor with the above information.

 

Sorry I can't be any more helpful.

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The thermostat that I bought was purchased from my local branch of Euro Car Parts Ltd.

 

think that the Circoli part number is 209 6 001J based on the way the label is presented.

 

There is a digit missing from the number above. It should be 209 860 01J, which is a 44mm dia 82 degree stat. For 88 degree the number is 209 700 301.

 

They are available online from Euro Car Parts.

 

Richard

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Yes, apologies, there is a digit missing.

 

When I said smaller I should have indicated that it is a liitle less deep than the original but I can't remember by how much. I was more concerned that it wasn't too "tall" rather than worry that it might be a bit too short.

Edited by Ray
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Thanks all. I have been busy this week installing a new bathroom in the house, but hope to be allowed out to the shops next week when I will be able to visit Euro Car Parts. I have the Beta thermostat at home so I will be able to see how much less deep the replacement is. I think even if quite a bit less deep, the only issue would be that it won't cut off the bypass when the engine is working really hard. This never happens on canals and for the very rare time we might do a tidal river, it only takes 5 minutes to change the thermostat back to the old one.

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There have been a lot of suggestions on here, but nobody has given a simple explanation of THERMOsyphoning.

So here goes:-

 

Hot water rises (that's why the hot water takeoff is at the top of the tank when the heating coils are at the bottom-ish)

Cold water sinks

 

So if there is an upward loop between the calorifier and the engine, the water in the tank will heat the coil, the water rises up the loop and as it cools it sinks the OTHER side of the loop.

This generates a flow of water and "pumps" the heat from the calorifier to the engine.

 

If theree is a downward loop, there's nowhere for the water to go uip so there's no circulation.

 

Seemples.

 

In the days before anyone here was born, motor cars used this effect to keep the engine cool (water pumps were very unreliable in those days). If you look at a1920's car you will see a massive tapering pipe coming out of the engine and going direct to the radiatior - which was also massive (one of the many reasons why old cars had long and tall bonnets).

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There have been a lot of suggestions on here, but nobody has given a simple explanation of THERMOsyphoning.

So here goes:-

 

Hot water rises (that's why the hot water takeoff is at the top of the tank when the heating coils are at the bottom-ish)

Cold water sinks

 

So if there is an upward loop between the calorifier and the engine, the water in the tank will heat the coil, the water rises up the loop and as it cools it sinks the OTHER side of the loop.

This generates a flow of water and "pumps" the heat from the calorifier to the engine.

 

If theree is a downward loop, there's nowhere for the water to go uip so there's no circulation.

 

Seemples.

 

In the days before anyone here was born, motor cars used this effect to keep the engine cool (water pumps were very unreliable in those days). If you look at a1920's car you will see a massive tapering pipe coming out of the engine and going direct to the radiatior - which was also massive (one of the many reasons why old cars had long and tall bonnets).

OG when you put it like that, it makes sense! Thanks.

 

Anyway, I installed a tap on the calorifier circuit which I turned off at the end of a day's cruising. Outcome? Absolutely no difference to morning water temperature! So thermosyphoning was not my problem!

 

So the I had a re-think and noticed that the immersion heater at the top of the calorifier was hot to the touch. Also that as the calorifier had been slid into the back of the counter, it passed under a bit of steelwork and had to have some of the foam sliced off the top to make it fit. This bit wasn't warm to the touch, but obviously it was thinner than the rest. So I got a can of spray foam and sealed round the side of the immersion heater where the boss was exposed. I decided to leave the plastic lid still exposed in case of any need for maintenance. I also restored the foam thickness the other side of the steelwork.

 

Outcome? Much warmer water in the morning, hot enough to do the washing up. So the moral is that even a small bit of exposed metalwork will lose a lot of heat overnight, especially as it was at the top of the calorifier and there are external vents into the area of the calorifier close by to let cold drafts in.

 

So now it just remains to fit a hotter thermostat to replace the 71 degree one, and we should have a Lorra Hot!

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  • 2 months later...

OG when you put it like that, it makes sense! Thanks.

 

Anyway, I installed a tap on the calorifier circuit which I turned off at the end of a day's cruising. Outcome? Absolutely no difference to morning water temperature! So thermosyphoning was not my problem!

 

So the I had a re-think and noticed that the immersion heater at the top of the calorifier was hot to the touch. Also that as the calorifier had been slid into the back of the counter, it passed under a bit of steelwork and had to have some of the foam sliced off the top to make it fit. This bit wasn't warm to the touch, but obviously it was thinner than the rest. So I got a can of spray foam and sealed round the side of the immersion heater where the boss was exposed. I decided to leave the plastic lid still exposed in case of any need for maintenance. I also restored the foam thickness the other side of the steelwork.

 

Outcome? Much warmer water in the morning, hot enough to do the washing up. So the moral is that even a small bit of exposed metalwork will lose a lot of heat overnight, especially as it was at the top of the calorifier and there are external vents into the area of the calorifier close by to let cold drafts in.

 

So now it just remains to fit a hotter thermostat to replace the 71 degree one, and we should have a Lorra Hot!

 

 

Hi Nicknorman,

 

Just read this thread, as I am having a similar problem with heat loss overnight. Did the new thermostat completely resolve the problem, so you can have hot showers in the morning again ?

 

Thanks

Mark

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Hi Nicknorman,

 

Just read this thread, as I am having a similar problem with heat loss overnight. Did the new thermostat completely resolve the problem, so you can have hot showers in the morning again ?

 

Thanks

Mark

In a word, yes. However I think improving the insulation made the biggest difference. The engine now runs at 80 deg instead of 70 and this obviously helps in 2 ways - water is hotter so takes longer to cool, and less is used to achieve shower-temperature water. We can have a shower after stopping for the day and still have the water hot enough for washing up in the morning. We don't tend to shower in the morning - boating is all about being slightly scuzzy in our opinion. We only shower when we can't stand our own smell any more.

 

As I may have mentioned, I did install a tap in the calorifier circuit which I turned off on shutdown but this made no difference. But before that I had insulated the pipes to and from the calorifier / engine. What I am saying is that you may need to tackle the problem on a number of levels - check for, and eliminate if necessary, any thermosyphoning. Make sure there is no exposed hot metal in the Calorifier, and its well insulated. And finally yes, the hotter thermostat helps.

 

The only down side to the thermostat is that I have noticed the engine bay is a little hotter than before. This shows up on the battery temperature sensor which I found approaching 50 degrees in the recent hot weather. I think my next task will be to improve the engine bay ventilation. Also the thermostat fitted is not an exact replacement. When open, the hole is smaller than the original, and there is no bypass cutoff. In other words circulation to the skin tank could be reduced. In practice it doesn't seem to be a problem - sustaining 2000rpm on the Weaver didn't result in a temperature rise, but if contemplating a tidal run, I think I might refit the original thermostat to ensure maximum cooling. It only takes 5 minutes to swap (on a cool engine!)

Edited by nicknorman
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  • 2 years later...

Thanks to the ideas on this thread I have finally stopped my calorifier siphoning our hot water through the engine. The first thing I tried was putting low loops in the feed pipes, that made no difference even when leaving off the insulation on the lower bits. Then I tried swapping the feed and return pipes near the engine. That sorted it. Thanks folks job done(only taken 2 years)

 

Top Cat

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Good to hear you fixed it TC! Swapping over (at the calorifier) fixed mine too I reckon, but I had to extend one line to achieve that so I took both to the baseplate whilst I was drained down as belt and braces. So nice to have hot water available in the mornings, isn't it?

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Yes its a great improvement, with this and the new boiler we wont have to move on every day to have hot water. Next job is to double the solar panel array so the batteries don't discharge as much, at the moment they get down to 80% with one rainy day static, havent pushed it longer than that because of the lack of hot water but I suspect 2 days static would push them a bit too hard.

 

I'm thinking of insulating the lower haves of the loops in the feed pipes to slow the rate that the tank cools, if that brings back siphoning taking it off again aint a big deal.

 

Ditch crawler, I boxed my tank in with Kingspan off cuts after wrapping it with the silver bubblewrap ( Aldi have it for a tenner at mo). There aint much heat getting through that lot.

 

Regards

 

Top Cat

Edited by Top cat
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