Historic Boats for sale online

[Jon57]

42 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Putting the flywheel on the front of the engine and taking the drive from the back, as the older 'vintage' diesels do, puts a pretty big strain on the crankshaft if the propeller suddenly stops rotating and the flywheel tries to carry on (especially with the heavy flywheels of slow running engines). Whereas putting the flywheel between the load and the engine protects the crankshaft to a large extent.

Or even 2 flywheels front and back.

[Pluto]

1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

I think that makes two of us. 

 

On reflection I think that makes all of us, in the world! 

 

If anyone knew, word would spread and all engines would be made the 'long lasting' way.

Are you sure modern economics would allow that to happen? A bit of built-in obsolescence is considered good for business.

[Captain Pegg]

Is the K2 in question hand start? If so I hope there is a nice clear space around the engine.

 

 

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, Pluto said:

Are you sure modern economics would allow that to happen? A bit of built-in obsolescence is considered good for business.

As suggested for LED lights, If there life really was 20 years all the manufacturers would go out of business The L.E.D. Quandary: Why There’s No Such Thing as “Built to Last” | The New Yorker

 

[Derek R.]

We had a PD2 that came out of a ships lifeboat. After installing it in YARMOUTH, we spent many years slogging around the system from Guildford to Gargrave, taking in the Thames and Trent. Never missed a beat. Straight through pipe - you could hear us coming. Get in a tunnel and the rythyms echoing from the tunnel roof from the exhaust would have you dancing on the back step. We'd heard about their cranks breaking, and one or two knowledgeable folk (ex-boatmen) had theories, including making them slog at low rpm, to poor starting techniques. Another suggested leaking oil coolers causing pressure drop. I always turned mine over a dozen times or so with the lifters up, hit the starter, drop the levers and she'd fire instantly, never failed. But one could not start her by hand, took two on the handle. Roger and I did it once. And I lost count of the times I'd forgotten to take the gas bottle cap off the exhaust to be followed by a clank on the roof as it landed, never accompanied by a splash oddly enough.

 

Sold the boat in late '92, and within three months heard the crank had broke. The chap also had caused damage to the Z bar, doing something that forced the bar and tiller so far forward, he had to cut some wood off the tiller handle to clear the top of the hatches.

 

I had heard that BW were offered a bunch of PD's from stationary sets to replace aging RN's, but don't know the truth in that. Maybe they were engines destined for landing craft and no longer required. 'Chip fryers', they weren't quiet mechanically being air cooled and much tinware.

 

The three pot version in TYCHO. Sods to work on.

 

PS: NOTE - the flywheel at the gearbox end.

 

 

 

A PDV8 generator set (image courtesy of young Mr. Riches.) Bet that sounded good!

 

Edited March 16 by Derek R.

[alan_fincher]

23 minutes ago, Derek R. said:

 

I

 

 

 

I think I would need longer engine rooms !

[Tonka]

1 hour ago, Derek R. said:

We had a PD2 that came out of a ships lifeboat. After installing it in YARMOUTH, we spent many years slogging around the system from Guildford to Gargrave, taking in the Thames and Trent. Never missed a beat. Straight through pipe - you could hear us coming. Get in a tunnel and the rythyms echoing from the tunnel roof from the exhaust would have you dancing on the back step. We'd heard about their cranks breaking, and one or two knowledgeable folk (ex-boatmen) had theories, including making them slog at low rpm, to poor starting techniques. Another suggested leaking oil coolers causing pressure drop. I always turned mine over a dozen times or so with the lifters up, hit the starter, drop the levers and she'd fire instantly, never failed. But one could not start her by hand, took two on the handle. Roger and I did it once. And I lost count of the times I'd forgotten to take the gas bottle cap off the exhaust to be followed by a clank on the roof as it landed, never accompanied by a splash oddly enough.

 

Sold the boat in late '92, and within three months heard the crank had broke. The chap also had caused damage to the Z bar, doing something that forced the bar and tiller so far forward, he had to cut some wood off the tiller handle to clear the top of the hatches.

 

I had heard that BW were offered a bunch of PD's from stationary sets to replace aging RN's, but don't know the truth in that. Maybe they were engines destined for landing craft and no longer required. 'Chip fryers', they weren't quiet mechanically being air cooled and much tinware.

 

The three pot version in TYCHO. Sods to work on.

 

PS: NOTE - the flywheel at the gearbox end.

 

 

 

A PDV8 generator set (image courtesy of young Mr. Riches.) Bet that sounded good!

 

Yes our PD2 was hard to hand start. Not helped by the decompression lever operating both sets of valves. We split it so as you could operate them singularly.  Sold ours in 1986. Still got the manual for it. We also had a complete spare engine which someone from Windsor bought. He picked it up from Croydon putting the engine on a motorcycle trailer. It did not look safe when it went off up the road. Often wonder whether it made it to Windsor

[MtB]

16 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

Is the K2 in question hand start? If so I hope there is a nice clear space around the engine.

 

 

 

 

 

Nasty! 

 

Is that an elbow or a knee? I can't decide! 

 

 

[Dav and Pen]

Our PD2s both had the spiral on the hand start which allowed you to put the decompressor levers over held by a bar attached to a small wheel that when you turned the handle slowly moved along the spiral until the decompressors fell . Sorry not a good description but it meant you could keep winding. Personally I nearly always failed to hand start them but Ted Ward never did. Ted had some wonderful terminology for the engine parts one of which was “splunger” which was always the cause of a mystery breakdown. Not sure of the reasons for the cranks breaking but ours did whilst ticking over in the top lock at Atherstone but it still got back to Braunston. As we were running camping boats decided to change it for a PJ3 from a trinity house generator which had only done 4 hours and 40 years later it’s still in the boat which has had 3 owners since .

[BWM]

On 15/03/2023 at 11:34, alan_fincher said:

 

So why is it that certain engines earn a reputation for it.

 

Having seen a Petter PD2 crank (in two pieces!) laid alongside one from a Lister HA2, all parts of the Petter offering are massive compared to the Lister.

 

On might think that "massiveness" equated to strength, and expect the much less heavily engineered Lister to be the more prone to breaking, but I have never heard of an HA suffering such a failure, but one hears of plenty of examples with the Petter.

 

I believe the PD2 was principally built as a fixed speed industrial engine - could the failures in boa use be because it is put under much more strain with constant varying of the speed and load, rather than just chugging along all day under a constant load, and at constant speed?

I've always understood that most crank faliures on this type of engine are caused by high rpm, combined with wear and the lack of support on a two cylinder crankshaft - three cylinder units have at least one extra central support.  

[MtB]

58 minutes ago, BWM said:

I've always understood that most crank faliures on this type of engine are caused by high rpm, combined with wear and the lack of support on a two cylinder crankshaft - three cylinder units have at least one extra central support.  

 

Never one on a 3 cyl engine. Always two, or none! 

[koukouvagia]

6 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Nasty! 

 

Is that an elbow or a knee? I can't decide! 

 

 

In the olden days, my father always taught me when starting our car, to cup the starting handle in the palm of my hand and never grip it with the thumb.  In that way if the engine started unexpectedly the handle would shoot out of the hand harmlessly.  I used the same technique when starting the K2 on Owl. 

By the way, I doubt whether anyone could start a K2 by hand without the aid of the magneto and petrol.

[zenataomm]

On 15/03/2023 at 11:34, alan_fincher said:

So why is it that certain engines earn a reputation for it.

 

Having seen a Petter PD2 crank (in two pieces!) laid alongside one from a Lister HA2, all parts of the Petter offering are massive compared to the Lister.

Although I have never manhandled a PD. I understand their reputation for snapping cranks lays behind them having a dry sump.  Relying on oil feed pipes to relay lubricant to journals et al can be a risky hobby.

The benefit against HA's wet sump is quicker to pile on the revs as the moving parts aren't thrashing around in gallons of Goo.

However if the vibrations loosen off a feed pipe, then the first you'll know about is "Bang Blast!"

And, as previously discussed (albeit years ago) remove the cylinder heads off most 2 cylinder engines and you'll find the pistons at the same position.  That is to say while one is approaching compression the other is approach exhaust.  While on Lister one will be up and the other down, so one lung is half a cycle behind the other, making for much easier hand cranking and starting.

[IanD]

38 minutes ago, koukouvagia said:

In the olden days, my father always taught me when starting our car, to cup the starting handle in the palm of my hand and never grip it with the thumb.  In that way if the engine started unexpectedly the handle would shoot out of the hand harmlessly.  I used the same technique when starting the K2 on Owl. 

By the way, I doubt whether anyone could start a K2 by hand without the aid of the magneto and petrol.

 

I was taught the same when I went on a rally driving course (birthday present!) many years ago, especially in quick manoeuvres like handbrake turns or on *very* rough rutted surfaces, in an old car with no power steering and a lot of kickback through the steering wheel. The price of ignoring this advice was an *extremely* sore almost-dislocated thumb, as I found out to my cost... 😞

Edited March 16 by IanD

[Captain Pegg]

37 minutes ago, koukouvagia said:

In the olden days, my father always taught me when starting our car, to cup the starting handle in the palm of my hand and never grip it with the thumb.  In that way if the engine started unexpectedly the handle would shoot out of the hand harmlessly.  I used the same technique when starting the K2 on Owl. 

By the way, I doubt whether anyone could start a K2 by hand without the aid of the magneto and petrol.

 

Could you turn yours over tdc, even without compression? I certainly didn't to start the one on the boat I moved and I've read it's not possible because it's too big and heavy.

 

@MtB That photo was my elbow after two days on a boat with a hand started K2 that I moved. The technique was to give it your all on a downward push as you only had half a turn to get it moving and hope it fired on the spark. Even the bloke selling the boat took a few efforts to start it himself. I was pleased to get it started at all. Unfortunately there was a very poorly situated metal locker on one side and I caught the top corner with my elbow a few times.

 

However, the water pump on the engine didn't seal and only worked at all at high revs. A pity then that it was on a couple of the hottest days of the year and the engine ultimately just kept getting warmer and warmer so it had to be stopped and restarted after it had cooled. I ended up hitching a tow for the last couple of miles. The boat was also squalid. @PaulJ's recent comment on having to sleep on filthy boats brought this one to mind.

 

Hence as lovely as the K2 is I do shudder when I see mention of one. A bit big for most boats though.

[magnetman]

2 hours ago, zenataomm said:

Although I have never manhandled a PD. I understand their reputation for snapping cranks lays behind them having a dry sump.  Relying on oil feed pipes to relay lubricant to journals et al can be a risky hobby.

The benefit against HA's wet sump is quicker to pile on the revs as the moving parts aren't thrashing around in gallons of Goo.

However if the vibrations loosen off a feed pipe, then the first you'll know about is "Bang Blast!"

And, as previously discussed (albeit years ago) remove the cylinder heads off most 2 cylinder engines and you'll find the pistons at the same position.  That is to say while one is approaching compression the other is approach exhaust.  While on Lister one will be up and the other down, so one lung is half a cycle behind the other, making for much easier hand cranking and starting.

Russell Newbery DM2 units were designed with one piston following the other one up rather than opposed. This was to protect the crankshaft. 

 

 

The exhaust tone was like a cantering horse rather than a clonk clonk type sound. 

 

 

 

[Mike Tee]

37 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Russell Newbery DM2 units were designed with one piston following the other one up rather than opposed. This was to protect the crankshaft. 

 

 

The exhaust tone was like a cantering horse rather than a clonk clonk type sound. 

 

 

 

I used to absolutely love listening to my DM2 when cruising - providing the engine room door was shut as the mechanical clattering was something else! Got a BD3 now which is similar in both respects.

[agg221]

10 hours ago, Tonka said:

Yes our PD2 was hard to hand start. Not helped by the decompression lever operating both sets of valves. We split it so as you could operate them singularly.  Sold ours in 1986. Still got the manual for it. We also had a complete spare engine which someone from Windsor bought. He picked it up from Croydon putting the engine on a motorcycle trailer. It did not look safe when it went off up the road. Often wonder whether it made it to Windsor

I wonder whether that may have been a Mr Lipscombe or a Mr Hessey, collectively Lipscombe Hessey, marine engineers of Eton Wick?

 

Alec

[magnetman]

21 minutes ago, Mike Tee said:

I used to absolutely love listening to my DM2 when cruising - providing the engine room door was shut as the mechanical clattering was something else! Got a BD3 now which is similar in both respects.

 

I had a DM2 for 12 yars in a narrow boat and a lot of cruising. It was in a stern engine room. Yes it was rather loud ! I took the deep pile carpet out of the engine room when I bought the boat and it took me a while to work out why it had been there. 

[Tonka]

20 minutes ago, agg221 said:

I wonder whether that may have been a Mr Lipscombe or a Mr Hessey, collectively Lipscombe Hessey, marine engineers of Eton Wick?

 

Alec

It was a guy who lived on a carribean  wide boat near the hotel that was used in Hammer House of horrors. He was interested in buying the camping boat that we were selling but because he dawdled got beaten in the purchase but because he loved the engine he bought the spare engine we had

[Derek R.]

15 hours ago, zenataomm said:

Although I have never manhandled a PD. I understand their reputation for snapping cranks lays behind them having a dry sump.  Relying on oil feed pipes to relay lubricant to journals et al can be a risky hobby.

The benefit against HA's wet sump is quicker to pile on the revs as the moving parts aren't thrashing around in gallons of Goo.

However if the vibrations loosen off a feed pipe, then the first you'll know about is "Bang Blast!"

And, as previously discussed (albeit years ago) remove the cylinder heads off most 2 cylinder engines and you'll find the pistons at the same position.  That is to say while one is approaching compression the other is approach exhaust.  While on Lister one will be up and the other down, so one lung is half a cycle behind the other, making for much easier hand cranking and starting.

 

"A risky hobby"?

It's a design to fit a purpose.

 

Without my old Petter manual to hand (so working from memory and a little experience of wet and dry sump engines) you will find the PD2 a wet sump engine - there is no separate oil tank. In most wet sump engines, the crank rotates above the level of sump oil. Also, a crank thrashing around in oil is not the primary source of lubrication for main and big end bearings. 'Splash' lubrication was a common factor in more primitive engines before forced lubrication, early motorcycle engines spring to mind, and even the later Panther big single relied on splash lubrication for a long time.

 

With the Petter, the oil pump forces oil through the oil cooler to bearings and the valve gear, mostly through external pipes which help to aid cooling from the forced air draught. Water jacketed engines do not run so hot, so many oilways are drillings through blocks, and piston to bore clearances are generally smaller than air cooled, the latter wider to allow for piston expansion under load.

 

Edited to add:

Some say that allowing the PD to run at slow speeds on tickover will exacerbate stress and fatigue on a crank, and that this may contribute to failure. Diesel engines do not like running slowly, even though the owners like it for the sound.

Edited March 17 by Derek R.

[furnessvale]

47 minutes ago, Derek R. said:

Edited to add:

Some say that allowing the PD to run at slow speeds on tickover will exacerbate stress and fatigue on a crank, and that this may contribute to failure. Diesel engines do not like running slowly, even though the owners like it for the sound.

One of my pet hates is a washer josher going past at "tickover" so slow that I can feel for the poor engine about to put a leg out of bed.

[koukouvagia]

16 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

Could you turn yours over tdc, even without compression? I certainly didn't to start the one on the boat I moved and I've read it's not possible because it's too big and heavy.

I could just about turn it over past TDC, but this was almost impossible after fitting new rings.

 

@MtB That photo was my elbow after two days on a boat with a hand started K2 that I moved. The technique was to give it your all on a downward push as you only had half a turn to get it moving and hope it fired on the spark. Even the bloke selling the boat took a few efforts to start it himself. I was pleased to get it started at all. Unfortunately there was a very poorly situated metal locker on one side and I caught the top corner with my elbow a few times.

I usually started the K2 just with a thermostart on diesel.  Never failed. 

I later fitted a coil and distributor to improve the rather weak magneto spark for the petrol start.  This proved so effective that I only had to move the flywheel a fraction and the engine would fire up.  I decided to add a safety device so that the engine couldn't be started accidentally in this way. 

 

[Captain Pegg]

2 hours ago, koukouvagia said:

I usually started the K2 just with a thermostart on diesel.  Never failed. 

I later fitted a coil and distributor to improve the rather weak magneto spark for the petrol start.  This proved so effective that I only had to move the flywheel a fraction and the engine would fire up.  I decided to add a safety device so that the engine couldn't be started accidentally in this way. 

 

 

I was thinking that if you always had to go through the procedure I encountered you'd soon fall out of love with it. I don't think the boat in question was very often cruised and the engine was in need of some TLC; but probably fine underneath.

[ditchcrawler]