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7 hours ago, pete harrison said:

Several owner boatmen had their horse boats converted into motors, much as buttys are still being converted to motors today.

That's being slightly rebalanced back the other way by a butty that had been converted to a motor now being converted back to a butty!

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13 hours ago, pete harrison said:

This work has positively identified a number of boats in recent years as well as answering questions around PRESIDENT and EMPEROR / EMPRESS - so there are people who know for sure

Please tell us, so we can stop arguing.

Re old conversions - are there any of the cut-down BWB hire boats left in 'as converted' condition?  I ask because in 1974/5 I was involved in refurbishing three of these at Oxford.  A lot of the timber had to be replaced.

Photos - Water Lupin (Gorse) before and after refurb.

Lupin..JPG

Water Lupin.jpg

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2 hours ago, Chris Williams said:

Please tell us, so we can stop arguing.

Re old conversions - are there any of the cut-down BWB hire boats left in 'as converted' condition?  I ask because in 1974/5 I was involved in refurbishing three of these at Oxford.  A lot of the timber had to be replaced.

Photos - Water Lupin (Gorse) before and after refurb.

WATER ARABIS - (shortened FMC motor ARABIA) is still short but with traditional cabin.

WATER FERN - (iron FMC horse boat stern) is hulked and on the bank.

WATER HYACYNTH (LMSR fore end DART) is still short and fairly original looking.

WATER IRIS - (small Woolwich fore end AURORA) has been subject to a recent hull restoration in its guise as a hire cruiser conversion, but is still an open hull with no fittings.

WATER IVY (LMSR stern end DART) lengthened 10' and recently subject to major works.

WATER LILAC - (small Woolwich fore end ANTONY) is for sale as ANTONY pretty much as converted but with tiller steering and an engine change.

WATER VIOLET - (small Woolwich stern end AURORA) is still short but recabinned in steel.

WATER VOLE - (large Northwich fore end KELSO) is still short but recabinned in steel.

 

I am not sure about WATER DAFFODIL and WATER ERICA (fore end & stern end of an iron FMC horse boat), but all others have been rebuilt into boats that have obliterated their 'British Waterways' hire boat conversions - and is all based upon the last time I saw each boat or updated my records, and of course will always be subject to change as owners are fickle.

 

You mention WATER LUPIN (GORSE) - sold by British Waterways Board in 1979 (tender closing date 28 February 1979) and went to owners on the Bridgewater Canal - rebuilt as 70' house boat utilising the hire boat cabin in 1990 by the same owners - 07/1992 sold to owner at Nantwich - 07/2012 sold for rebuild but works not completed - 2013 fore end sold and rebuilt into 57' carrying boat with original style counter stern and cabin/engineroom (I have all of the owners names but have withheld them to protect their privacy) :captain: 

 

edit - before somebody mentions the small Woolwich butty stern converted into the 39' flat sterned pleasure boat MISS B-HAVIN / SAFEST HAVEN I am sure that this is not a 'British Waterways' hire boat conversion, although it does have some similarities. I am also pretty sure I know what this boat was built out of but I am keeping my opinion to myself without further evidence. I have seen this boat being discussed as the stern of AURORA but it is not.

Edited by pete harrison
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45 minutes ago, pete harrison said:

I ask because in 1974/5 I was involved in refurbishing three of these at Oxford.

Wrong date, it was winter of 1972/3.

Lupin, Lilac, and I can't remember the third one.

Thanks for the list, seems a couple are still as I remember them.

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What’s these boats anyone please

Are these cut down carrying boats? 

8C8573E8-D37A-4603-895A-401E2EEAD8A9.jpeg

Edited by ChimneyChain

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38 minutes ago, ChimneyChain said:

What’s these boats anyone please

I would say the first JASON and the ex-tunnel tug HASTY when operated as trip boats by John James (HASTY operated 1954 - 1958) :captain:

 

edit = JASON was full length and HASTY was however long Grand Junction Canal Company tunnel tug's were (50'ish ?)

Edited by pete harrison

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2 hours ago, pete harrison said:

WATER ARABIS - (shortened FMC motor ARABIA) is still short but with traditional cabin.

WATER FERN - (iron FMC horse boat stern) is hulked and on the bank.

WATER HYACYNTH (LMSR fore end DART) is still short and fairly original looking.

WATER IRIS - (small Woolwich fore end AURORA) has been subject to a recent hull restoration in its guise as a hire cruiser conversion, but is still an open hull with no fittings.

WATER IVY (LMSR stern end DART) lengthened 10' and recently subject to major works.

WATER LILAC - (small Woolwich fore end ANTONY) is for sale as ANTONY pretty much as converted but with tiller steering and an engine change.

WATER VIOLET - (small Woolwich stern end AURORA) is still short but recabinned in steel.

WATER VOLE - (large Northwich fore end KELSO) is still short but recabinned in steel.

 

I am not sure about WATER DAFFODIL and WATER ERICA (fore end & stern end of an iron FMC horse boat), but all others have been rebuilt into boats that have obliterated their 'British Waterways' hire boat conversions - and is all based upon the last time I saw each boat or updated my records, and of course will always be subject to change as owners are fickle.

 

You mention WATER LUPIN (GORSE) - sold by British Waterways Board in 1979 (tender closing date 28 February 1979) and went to owners on the Bridgewater Canal - rebuilt as 70' house boat utilising the hire boat cabin in 1990 by the same owners - 07/1992 sold to owner at Nantwich - 07/2012 sold for rebuild but works not completed - 2013 fore end sold and rebuilt into 57' carrying boat with original style counter stern and cabin/engineroom (I have all of the owners names but have withheld them to protect their privacy) :captain: 

 

edit - before somebody mentions the small Woolwich butty stern converted into the 39' flat sterned pleasure boat MISS B-HAVIN / SAFEST HAVEN I am sure that this is not a 'British Waterways' hire boat conversion, although it does have some similarities. I am also pretty sure I know what this boat was built out of but I am keeping my opinion to myself without further evidence. I have seen this boat being discussed as the stern of AURORA but it is not.

re Water Lilac - my understanding is that it was sold by BW to James Ryle ( - always Mr Ryle to us! -) in about 1977/8 after he sold the "Cassiopeia". At this time it was fitted with a Lister HA2, presumably the same one it still has...…!

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4 minutes ago, archie57 said:

re Water Lilac - my understanding is that it was sold by BW to James Ryle ( - always Mr Ryle to us! -) in about 1977/8 after he sold the "Cassiopeia". At this time it was fitted with a Lister HA2, presumably the same one it still has...…!

Quite.

 

I am unable to see where Ernest Thomas fits in with WATER LILAC's quoted history featured in the current advert, especially as British Waterways Board did not sell it until 1978 (tender closing date 30 June 1978) :captain:

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22 hours ago, RLWP said:

Either 'not a lot', or 'it depends what you mean by original'

given it was rebuild from a1 to a3 the converted from left to right hand drive, then power upped and semi rebuild by br, then privately the power was upped again as owner wanted ssme power as a4, then was converted back to a3 single chimney before the br upped power, now has been put back to br running and at this time most of the frames were rebuild, I'm guessing prob about 2% if that from how she rolled out the factory as an a1

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1 hour ago, billybobbooth said:

given it was rebuild from a1 to a3 the converted from left to right hand drive, then power upped and semi rebuild by br, then privately the power was upped again as owner wanted ssme power as a4, then was converted back to a3 single chimney before the br upped power, now has been put back to br running and at this time most of the frames were rebuild, I'm guessing prob about 2% if that from how she rolled out the factory as an a1

The LNER had an issue with the frames cracking on one of their classes of Pacific (can't remember which). As a result, they used to swap frames at each major rebuild

 

Richard 

Edited by RLWP

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1 hour ago, RLWP said:

The LNER had an issue with the frames cracking on one of their classes of Pacific (can't remember which). As a result, they used to swap frames at each major rebuild

 

Richard 

Possibly the Thompson Pacifics A1/1, A2/1, A2/2 or A2/3.

 

General opinion on Edward Thompson revolves entirely around the fact that he chose Gresley's Great Northern to be rebuilt to be his prototype Thompson A1. The locomotive itself, when rebuilt, has been cited by several sources as being a better overall engine than either the original Gresley A1s, A3s or single chimney A4s in service, in terms of ability to retain speed, fuel consumption and in respects, was an easier engine to maintain (the advantages of the hopper ashpan and drop gate).

Thompson A1/1

Positives:

1. Drop Gate
2. Hopper Ashpan
3. Kylchap Exhaust
4. 250lb Boiler, bringing with it 37,400lb of tractive effort

Negatives:

1. Aesthetics. When originally rebuilt, GN the running plate was straight edged to the cab (which has short side sheets). This gave the engine an ungainly look with its original stovepipe double chimney. Latterly, it was rebuilt with conventional cab side sheets, running plate and smoke deflectors, and looked more purposeful. Not as handsome as the other pacifics, but very purposeful.
2. The choice of engine. I am under no illusions - there is a lot of evidence to suggest the A1/1 was not the horrendous failure it has been purported to be. Whether you believe Cecil J.Allen or Peter Townend, the engine was a better locomotive than in its original Gresley form. If it had not been 4470, but another member of the class - perhaps, one of the first A3s with the highest mileage aside from 4470 would have been less controversial.
3. Tendency to slip - this has been recorded by several commentators of the time, and it flabbergasts me slightly! There was a pic on here some time ago showing 60113 with her sanders going full pelt, on the level, through a station...I'm not sure why this was so, but the Thompson Pacifics seemed to be easier to wheelslip than other pacifics (unbalanced proportions of length, perhaps?)
4. Frames - the frame extensions and similar use for the A1/1 seem to have been prone to some cracking and other similar stresses, and it spent various short periods out of traffic for repairs of this nature.

Overall, he was a decent CME doing his best in wartime situations - yes, the A2/2s and A1/1 conversions were controversial, but in the latter he produced a locomotive that was, at the time, the best pacific the LNER had (most notably, aside from the double chimney A4s - quite why these were in such a minority for such a long time remains a mystery to me!). Looking at Cecil J.Allen's British Pacific Locomotives, he recounts the 1945 trials - Great Northern against Sir Ralph Wedgwood (single chimney A4), the two engines producing a dead heat in consumptions per mile, GN edging out SRW a little on coal consumption per mile.

I do wonder - if 4470, later 60113 had simply been given a little more TLC, and looked after a bit more, would she have turned out to have been a decent overall engine, instead of spending her twilight years as the Grantham station pilot engine?
 
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You've obviously researched the A1 in depth, and your comments make interesting reading. I'm not sure I agree about the aesthetic side, though: I'm sure I saw A1s when I went train-spotting at Doncaster station as a boy, and they did not strike me as ugly - though of course all other pacifics paled into insignificance beside the mighty Streaks.

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Just now, Athy said:

You've obviously researched the A1 in depth, and your comments make interesting reading. I'm not sure I agree about the aesthetic side, though: I'm sure I saw A1s when I went train-spotting at Doncaster station as a boy, and they did not strike me as ugly - though of course all other pacifics paled into insignificance beside the mighty Streaks.

Off topic, but the LNER is one of my passions as well as canals. I have some 30+ models of loco's, some kit built, some propriety models some "Kit bashed." I also have a complete "Coronation" set. Just a few.

IMGP4138.JPG

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8 minutes ago, Ray T said:

Off topic, but the LNER is one of my passions as well as canals. I have some 30+ models of loco's, some kit built, some propriety models some "Kit bashed." I also have a complete "Coronation" set. Just a few.

IMGP4138.JPG

Cor! Is that a P1 2-8-2 I see? And a Sentinel shunter?

Have you got a layout or do you just display the locos in their case?

Edited by Athy

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17 minutes ago, Ray T said:

Off topic, but the LNER is one of my passions as well as canals. I have some 30+ models of loco's, some kit built, some propriety models some "Kit bashed." I also have a complete "Coronation" set. Just a few.

 

One thing I like about this forum is the ability to wander moderately off topic without some jobsworth moderator giving you a warning and deleting your posts, as happens with another forum I use. ?

 

George

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1 minute ago, furnessvale said:

One thing I like about this forum is the ability to wander moderately off topic without some jobsworth moderator giving you a warning and deleting your posts, as happens with another forum I use. ?

 

George

Sometimes, those tiresome jobsworths even join in, gosh!

Threads or topics are like live conversations: they depart on the main line, make a few intermediate stops, run into a siding, go round a loop line and sometimes arrive back at the original station.

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1 hour ago, Athy said:

Sometimes, those tiresome jobsworths even join in, gosh!

Threads or topics are like live conversations: they depart on the main line, make a few intermediate stops, run into a siding, go round a loop line and sometimes arrive back at the original station.

Looks like you have taken this personally.  If you are not a jobsworth there is no problem.  Most moderators in most forums do a good job in thankless conditions.  I was referring to a specific forum which I use because of the quality of information I can receive (and give) within it.  Some of the moderators within that forum definitely are jobsworths who revel in their "power".

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2 hours ago, Athy said:

all other pacifics paled into insignificance beside the mighty Streaks.

Sorry - a Merchant Navy looks better, and with its smaller wheels, does better, without wrecking the big ends.

In the same way, everyone wants a Josher.  Heavy-arsed and can't carry a decent load.

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3 hours ago, Athy said:

Cor! Is that a P1 2-8-2 I see? And a Sentinel shunter?

Have you got a layout or do you just display the locos in their case?

There  is a P2, a K's kit with a portescap motor. I used to have a layout at my parents house many moons ago but not at the moment. I actually get a lot of pleasure from just building the things.  There is also, as spotted, P1 made up from a mixture of kits and the parts box, again with a Portescap motor. Portescap's are no longer being made and secondhand ones now fetch silly prices which I refuse to pay. 

 

Amongst the others a Stirling single, a Atlantic C2,  kit bashed Footballer with streamlining, City of London.

 

I am in the process of building a V2, Bantam Cock.  

 

I have another case with A4's in but we have run out of wall space so it is in the dormer in storage at the moment. 

IMGP4139.JPG

 

The A1's you saw were possible the Peppercorn ones, Tornado is a modern built replica.

Edited by Ray T

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44 minutes ago, Chris Williams said:

Sorry - a Merchant Navy looks better, and with its smaller wheels, does better, without wrecking the big ends.

In the same way, everyone wants a Josher.  Heavy-arsed and can't carry a decent load.

Not often seen on the L.N.E.R., though.

1 hour ago, furnessvale said:

Looks like you have taken this personally. 

What on earth do you man? I was AGREEING with you, as should have been fairly obvious.

 

 

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58 minutes ago, Chris Williams said:

Sorry - a Merchant Navy looks better, and with its smaller wheels, does better, without wrecking the big ends.

In the same way, everyone wants a Josher.  Heavy-arsed and can't carry a decent load.

Whilst I actually am a fan of Bullied pacifics, (particularly the rebuilt types), it is fairly well acknowledged that they were very light footed and prone to slipping.  Plus I thing coal consumption was higher than on other locos of similar power class.

 

It is well documented that experienced enginemen preferred a Standard Class 5 going over the Mendips on the Somerset and Dorset, and that the Bullieds needed much more careful management.

I'm not an LNER fan particularly, and certainly can't get worked up over a Gresley streamliner, but I do actually think the A3s were the most elegant looking Pacifics built in the UK.

Had Stanier had access to Stoke Bank though, I reckon his big pacifics could easily have competed with A3s and A4s. A shame they never got the chance.

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1 minute ago, alan_fincher said:

Whilst I actually am a fan of Bullied pacifics

I have great sympathy for them.

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OVS Bullied was at one time an assistant to Gresley before he went to the Southern, finishing his career with Irish Railways.

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7 minutes ago, Ray T said:

OVS Bullied was at one time an assistant to Gresley before he went to the Southern, finishing his career with Irish Railways.

Did the Leader fiasco prompt Bulleid's move from Southern region to his new post in Ireland?

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