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alan_fincher

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FYI - if you haven't seen it (on "twitbook") - "Princess Anne" is now open to offers - this is a really great and very well maintained boat - if its your "bag" then something with a "4" in front would probably secure it...……………...

 

Worth a rethink for the couple of you on here who seemed interested...……………………..

Edited by Halsey
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2 hours ago, Halsey said:

FYI - if you haven't seen it (on "twitbook") - "Princess Anne" is now open to offers - this is a really great and very well maintained boat - if its your "bag" then something with a "4" in front would probably secure it...……………...

 

Worth a rethink for the couple of you on here who seemed interested...……………………..

Now on the ‘duck’ for £42k

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Princess Anne and Delhi are the two boats for me - one as a historic looks ‘right’, and the other as a go away for a few months but still looks ‘right’ - I always look enviously when either are for sale - but arthritis and age keep saying ‘no more’!! (You’ve probably guessed by now I’m not a fan of full length) so at £42k it’s puurrfik

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3 hours ago, Halsey said:

 

That's the right money - its a great boat in great condition...……………………...and I believe it owes the owner a lot more than that

I have to say if my industry hadn’t just disappeared last week I’d have been very tempted...but right now is not the time to be spending out. 

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3 hours ago, Halsey said:

 

That's the right money - its a great boat in great condition...……………………...and I believe it owes the owner a lot more than that

This is the case for most owners of these boats who are keen to keep on top of things, especially if they do not have the skills or health to carry out ongoing maintenance and renovations themselves :captain:

 

edit = this gap between maintenance / renovation / restoration and end value has been getting further apart for a while as 'historic' narrow boats have been dropping in price, and I have every confidence this will only get worse in the coming months fuelled by the changing circumstances of potential purchasers. I have had to suspend my plans to acquire a butty (todays viewing cancelled) as the world has changed since making my initial enquiry only a couple of weeks ago.

Edited by pete harrison
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6 hours ago, Halsey said:

FYI - if you haven't seen it (on "twitbook") - "Princess Anne" is now open to offers - this is a really great and very well maintained boat - if its your "bag" then something with a "4" in front would probably secure it...……………...

 

Worth a rethink for the couple of you on here who seemed interested...……………………..

 

4 hours ago, Mike Tee said:

Now on the ‘duck’ for £42k

 

Blimey, that is one hell of a reduction.

If I didn't have two "historics" already, I'd be in there like a flash.

Stunning boat, in apparently stunning condition.

Unfortunately I think the current owner will be massively out of pocket, even if not forced to accept an even lower offer.  She paid top money for it in the first place, I believe, and has poured in loads more to have extensive work done on it since.

If anyone wants a "not full length" historic, they don't come much nicer than "Princess Anne".  Far better as a buyer that someone else has taken the hit to put a boat into top condition.  As Pete suggests, if you buy one that needs work, you are unlikely to ever recoup anything more than a fraction of what you pour into it.  Bad news if you are a seller that needs the cash though - I feel her pain.

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2 hours ago, alan_fincher said:


Unfortunately I think the current owner will be massively out of pocket, even if not forced to accept an even lower offer.  She paid top money for it in the first place, I believe, and has poured in loads more to have extensive work done 

I was under the impression that it was the previous owner who did the spending on her, he had a lot of work done at Paul Barbers including rebuilding the cabin in steel. There was work done on the bottom planks too while she was in dock. 

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1 hour ago, noddyboater said:

I was under the impression that it was the previous owner who did the spending on her, he had a lot of work done at Paul Barbers including rebuilding the cabin in steel. There was work done on the bottom planks too while she was in dock. 

I'm sure a substantial amount of additional work has also been done under the current ownership.  It has been undergoing works at Brinklow whilst we have had our own boats in the yard at the same time. I can't immediately recall the details, but seem to recall things like new fuel tanks was amongst the things done.

Edited by alan_fincher
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Having lived with a couple of composite hulls, it's the only thing that'd turn me off ..... well the lack of folding as well of course.

 

No matter how good vegetable bottoms are you never get out of the habit of sleeping with one arm hanging over.

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Or rigging the alarm up to the bilge pump. Actually, living afloat stopped us from sleeping soundly - period. We still don't. Whether it's bilge pump; ducks nibbling the hull sides; or the bump into the far bank having been untied by some joker in the early hours. Then there was the firework dropped through the vent.

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12 hours ago, Derek R. said:

Or rigging the alarm up to the bilge pump. Actually, living afloat stopped us from sleeping soundly - period. We still don't. Whether it's bilge pump; ducks nibbling the hull sides; or the bump into the far bank having been untied by some joker in the early hours. Then there was the firework dropped through the vent.

 

Always slept better on boats for the last 50 years until recent years as "non boating disturbances" have increased - this hasn't in any way put us off but its sad...….I suppose city centres will be better now the drunks aren't about after closing time - Brum in particular has been an issue for us but we still love it.

 

We were untied 15 years ago so it did happen - I suspect its my ability to deal with it/shrug it off that has also changed with anno-domini

 

We would really love a short historic (anyone??) but I have to admit the "veggie" bottom puts me off this one...………………. 

Edited by Halsey
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14 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

I'm sure a substantial amount of additional work has also been done under the current ownership.  It has been undergoing works at Brinklow whilst we have had our own boats in the yard at the same time. I can't immediately recall the details, but seem to recall things like new fuel tanks was amongst the things done.

I'm pretty sure that every screw that needed turning has been taken care of on this boat, jobs big and small have all been done. 

47 minutes ago, Halsey said:

 

Always slept better on boats for the last 50 years until recent years as "non boating disturbances" have increased - this hasn't in any way put us off but its sad...….I suppose city centres will be better now the drunks aren't about after closing time - Brum in particular has been an issue for us but we still love it.

 

We were untied 15 years ago so it did happen - I suspect its my ability to deal with it/shrug it off that has also changed with anno-domini

 

We would really love a short historic (anyone??) but I have to admit the "veggie" bottom puts me off this one...………………. 

Knowing the quality of the work done by Rex Wain and the increased lifespan of the timber now used, i'd be happier with the underside of this boat. That said, steel underneath works for me!

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31 minutes ago, BWM said:

Knowing the quality of the work done by Rex Wain and the increased lifespan of the timber now used, i'd be happier with the underside of this boat. That said, steel underneath works for me!

 

This raises an interesting point. 

 

How long was the elm bottom of a composite boat expected to last for back in the day? And how long do we expect a contemporary vegetable base to last in comparison?

 

Ok that was two questions....

 

And doesn't a composite boat need docking and caulking checked out every couple of years anyway? A lot more uncertain than just pressure washing and blacking the sides. This maintenance need alone must depress the market value of any composite boat. 

 

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6 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

This raises an interesting point. 

 

How long was the elm bottom of a composite boat expected to last for back in the day? And how long do we expect a contemporary vegetable base to last in comparison?

 

Ok that was two questions....

 

And doesn't a composite boat need docking and caulking checked out every couple of years anyway? A lot more uncertain than just pressure washing and blacking the sides. This maintenance need alone must depress the market value of any composite boat. 

 

I have not owned a bonfire bottomed boat but conversations i've had with folks who have state that many years after fitting the new planks they still look as new, and informed me that the nature of the African hardwoods used prevents the reaction with the bolts used to fix them as they have a high oil content and less acid to react, rotting wood and fixing simultaneously - having recently replaced the gunwales on mine it was obvious that 99 percent of deterioration had occurred in these areas!

 I assume they would still require regular docking but others would have a better insight than me.

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5 minutes ago, BWM said:

I have not owned a bonfire bottomed boat but conversations i've had with folks who have state that many years after fitting the new planks they still look as new, and informed me that the nature of the African hardwoods used prevents the reaction with the bolts used to fix them as they have a high oil content and less acid to react, rotting wood and fixing simultaneously - having recently replaced the gunwales on mine it was obvious that 99 percent of deterioration had occurred in these areas!

 I assume they would still require regular docking but others would have a better insight than me.

Being no expert whatsoever, I can see that one of the restrictions it would place on you is that you would eed to do all your dockings in a way that you can get properly underneath.  I suggest there are relatively few facilities where this is reasonably possible.

 

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53 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

Being no expert whatsoever, I can see that one of the restrictions it would place on you is that you would eed to do all your dockings in a way that you can get properly underneath.  I suggest there are relatively few facilities where this is reasonably possible.

 

Wriggling around on your back in dry dock mud has little appeal, especially hammering a dusty material into gaps! 

  Definitely specialist facility only, anywhere else is bound to put the problem areas out of reach, sods law would ensure that. 

  Mind you, even places that have staff on site for repairs to a steel/iron boat of the right standard are thin on the ground. 

Edited by BWM
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1 hour ago, BWM said:

his raises an interesting point. 

 

How long was the elm bottom of a composite boat expected to last for back in the day? And how long do we expect a contemporary vegetable base to last in comparison?

 

Ok that was two questions....

 

And doesn't a composite boat need docking and caulking checked out every couple of years anyway? A lot more uncertain than just pressure washing and blacking the sides. This maintenance need alone must depress the market value of any composite boat. 

I had some experience of a composite boat in the 1990's. My understanding was that during the working life of these boats the bottoms would wear out and need to be replaced depending on the usage and it was easier for a canal boatyard to do this where no shipyard facilities were available. I guess when they were working nobody cared much about a bit of a leak as you would always have some rainwater in the bottom. Much the same for all of us that had wooden cruising boats - some water was inevitable in the bilge.

In my case the boat had been re-bottomed with poor quality elm and in places it always leaked a bit and with a replaced softwood keelson it had a very limited life. the boat was fully converted with inaccessible floors so it was very difficult to see what was going on below the floor. Also and inexperienced helm misjudging a lock could easily cause a leak. The bottom was eventually replaced by steel. The lifetime of the bottom in this case was about 15 years.

I am sure that using tropical hardwoods results in a much better performance and a longer life and I might be tempted to buy a unconverted boat with that construction and keep its historic status. I can't see that it would be a good investment for anyone wanting a converted boat.

 

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1 minute ago, Mike Adams said:

I had some experience of a composite boat in the 1990's. My understanding was that during the working life of these boats the bottoms would wear out and need to be replaced depending on the usage and it was easier for a canal boatyard to do this where no shipyard facilities were available. I guess when they were working nobody cared much about a bit of a leak as you would always have some rainwater in the bottom. Much the same for all of us that had wooden cruising boats - some water was inevitable in the bilge.

In my case the boat had been re-bottomed with poor quality elm and in places it always leaked a bit and with a replaced softwood keelson it had a very limited life. the boat was fully converted with inaccessible floors so it was very difficult to see what was going on below the floor. Also and inexperienced helm misjudging a lock could easily cause a leak. The bottom was eventually replaced by steel. The lifetime of the bottom in this case was about 15 years.

I am sure that using tropical hardwoods results in a much better performance and a longer life and I might be tempted to buy a unconverted boat with that construction and keep its historic status. I can't see that it would be a good investment for anyone wanting a converted boat.

 

I knew one of the previous owners of Juno, he said that the elm fitted to the converted stern end was inferior and had already deteriorated beyond the older, original portion. His method of repair was to deposit the occasional bag of cement in the questionable areas!

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Hypothetical question - (raised by the Princess Anne comments)

I’ve read that glulam timber, pound for pound, is stronger than steel, also the special glue used is fully waterproof. So would this material be suitable for repair / replacement in wooden boats bearing in mind the beams can be created / bent to order and in virtually any size.

 Taking this a step further, could the special glue be used to join existing or replacement parts to do away with caulking?

(I think I may have too much time on my hands in the current situation!!)

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3 minutes ago, Mike Tee said:

Hypothetical question - (raised by the Princess Anne comments)

I’ve read that glulam timber, pound for pound, is stronger than steel, also the special glue used is fully waterproof. So would this material be suitable for repair / replacement in wooden boats bearing in mind the beams can be created / bent to order and in virtually any size.

 Taking this a step further, could the special glue be used to join existing or replacement parts to do away with caulking?

(I think I may have too much time on my hands in the current situation!!)

I doubt you could glue boards together, the inevitable movement by length/thickness/width would force a change of shape somewhere even if the glue didn't fail. 

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37 minutes ago, BWM said:

Hypothetical question - (raised by the Princess Anne comments)

I’ve read that glulam timber, pound for pound, is stronger than steel, also the special glue used is fully waterproof. So would this material be suitable for repair / replacement in wooden boats bearing in mind the beams can be created / bent to order and in virtually any size.

 Taking this a step further, could the special glue be used to join existing or replacement parts to do away with caulking?

(I think I may have too much time on my hands in the current situation!!)

I've got some glulam beams in my house but they are just softwood. I dont think they would last more than a few weeks under water. If you don't want a steel bottom why not laminate say a 40mm  thick GRP plate and bolt it on to the bottom -you could do it in sections and laminate them together.

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With two of them I spent more time on holiday docking one and then the following year the other.

 

Certainly in the days of working they were worn thin by being dragged along the bottom.  Also the thick silt constantly plugged the seams and kept the knot holes and imperfections blocked too.   I found if the boat wasn't used for a month or more the crud often washed out and everything benefitted from a blast up and down the shallowest bit of cut to be found.

Docking has to be a prompt affair as you are fighting time.  The longer the bottoms are out of water the bigger the risk they will dry out and start to shrink.  Then you have more problems going back in than you had before you came out.

 

I also found with elm, there are worms that burrow into it causing all sorts of shenanigans.  I don't know if they had a taste for iroko as well.

Stopping all seepages through the bottoms I found next to impossible.  Even the vibration from the engine could start problems, I've heard Bolinder Pups were notorious trouble makers for shaking out caulking, but it also meant you never had to riddle the stove.

 

Certainly you start keeping a list of "very" dry docks with good under clearance and lighting as you're going to spend days under there trying to hammer up hill with your mouth shut!

The biggest issue I had with vegetable bottoms was that they are wet. By that it's meant your bilges are always at the best damp, the wood is porous.  You do hear some say proudly that there was dust in theirs.  I've never witnessed anything like that, in fact I think it would be the quickest way to rot them and turn them to powder.  Elm wet on one side and dry the other doesn't last long, it must be kept wet all through.

Consequently wet bilges give a boat a very distinctive (not unnecessarily unpleasant) dampish smell.  Even if you pump them never leaving more than a dribble at the deepest part, all silt and mud lines the bottoms inside.  I once replaced a bottom plank, giving me the opportunity to scoot all the muck out into the dock.  I thought I'd be able to hose it out, it took two of us with shovels.

 

It doesn't mean I wouldn't have another one, I would but only on the condition it was a non converted boat with full access to all internal parts of the bottoms.

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My experience of elm bottomed boats was that they leaked for a lot of reasons , but that once settled the maintenance  was more about the fight they had with the steel sides. 
Having said that the front board on our boat was 50 years old, and eventually i pretty much spooned it out of the shoe plate.

steel bolts rotting, keelson falling apart , and un sympathetic boat owners roaring past, was always a concern.

Leaks were always under the rayburn  water tank or bath.

I do remember one day after a certain bodged up steam powered multi abuser came flying past, finding the boat adrift and sinking at Stockers lock. I think that was the occasion when the nearest object i could hammer in to the damaged seam was my socks.

We had 3  auto bilge pumps, standard, whoops and crisis. All set at different heights.

After 14 years we replaced with steel.

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