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alan_fincher

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Prince was owned in the late 70s early 80s as a carrying boar by Bill Blaik operating as Canal & Graphic Services.  He was also a graphic designer (surprise!) and although I presume he’s now retired, I think he is still involved with tugs on the Thames.  He operated in London and used to retail coal and deliver building materials for contractors.

 

Paul

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15 minutes ago, frangar said:

Thank god for that......being moored almost opposite was making me have thoughts......

:) It was those sort of thoughts which got the better of me. 

3 minutes ago, Paul H said:

Prince was owned in the late 70s early 80s as a carrying boar by Bill Blaik operating as Canal & Graphic Services.  He was also a graphic designer (surprise!) and although I presume he’s now retired, I think he is still involved with tugs on the Thames.  He operated in London and used to retail coal and deliver building materials for contractors.

 

Paul

Thanks Paul, that's good to know, I might see if I can get hold of him somehow, I'm not too far from London. 

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On 08/08/2018 at 21:41, Paul H said:

Prince was owned in the late 70s early 80s as a carrying boar by Bill Blaik operating as Canal & Graphic Services.  He was also a graphic designer (surprise!) and although I presume he’s now retired, I think he is still involved with tugs on the Thames.  He operated in London and used to retail coal and deliver building materials for contractors.

 

Paul

Bill Blaik operated PRINCE from 1978 to late 1981, pairing it with the 'blue top' butty AXE and an iron B.C.N. day boat at different times - and was an Authorised Coal Dealer, which was quite important back then (one of the roundels off the deckboard of PRINCE ended up on the deckboard of my butty in 1983) :captain:

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24 minutes ago, pete harrison said:

Bill Blaik operated PRINCE from 1978 to late 1981, pairing it with the 'blue top' butty AXE and an iron B.C.N. day boat at different times - and was an Authorised Coal Dealer, which was quite important back then (one of the roundels off the deckboard of PRINCE ended up on the deckboard of my butty in 1983) :captain:

I believe he may have used her with atalanta before we bought her. The guy we bought her from said he and bill used them as a pair, possibly before atalanta had first a wooden cabin and then the undercloth conversion put on

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37 minutes ago, pete harrison said:

Bill Blaik operated PRINCE from 1978 to late 1981, pairing it with the 'blue top' butty AXE and an iron B.C.N. day boat at different times - and was an Authorised Coal Dealer, which was quite important back then (one of the roundels off the deckboard of PRINCE ended up on the deckboard of my butty in 1983) :captain:

Not sure of exact date of these taken by my brother Mike in London, but certainly "late 70s".

 

[Photos copyright Mike Fincher - please ignore the fact they are incorrectly named - it is clearly Prince!]

 

duke.jpg.f293a08415dfedefaf7c242df5af5270.jpg

 

Duke2.jpg.8fcdb243f1637a1161f9c88f3b8c8c06.jpg

 

Edited by alan_fincher
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1 hour ago, pete harrison said:

Bill Blaik operated PRINCE from 1978 to late 1981, pairing it with the 'blue top' butty AXE and an iron B.C.N. day boat at different times - and was an Authorised Coal Dealer, which was quite important back then (one of the roundels off the deckboard of PRINCE ended up on the deckboard of my butty in 1983) :captain:

That's interesting, and I thought I might be the first, pairing prince with a river class! Everything has always been done before :)

im going to have to track bill blaik down, hopefully he might have a photo or two that he wouldn't mind showing me. 

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4 minutes ago, sparrowcycles said:

That's interesting, and I thought I might be the first, pairing prince with a river class! Everything has always been done before :)

im going to have to track bill blaik down, hopefully he might have a photo or two that he wouldn't mind showing me. 

If I remember correctly Rod North worked as Bill Blaik's steerer for a while, and I am sure it is him that first told me about AXE being paired with PRINCE (backed up by a short article in Waterways World). Mike Fincher's images above are how I remember PRINCE when it came to Birmingham in 1982. 

 

Have you discovered any history or photographs yet relating to PRINCE as there are quite a few from its early days and its history is pretty well known :captain:

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Going further back, I recall seeing "Prince" at Lapworth , when owned by Jay Price, back in the early 70s, without an engine.  Mark Holtham bought it and fitted a Petter PJ3 - does it still have this? Amongst other things, he used it from time to time for taking the joey boat containing scrap wood from Warwick up to Stockton for burning. He sold it when he had built a Pimblotts look-alike called the "Nelson" - actually I think he swapped it for the "Sweden" and a butty, whose name escapes me!

Edited by archie57
additional information!
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1 hour ago, pete harrison said:

If I remember correctly Rod North worked as Bill Blaik's steerer for a while, and I am sure it is him that first told me about AXE being paired with PRINCE (backed up by a short article in Waterways World). Mike Fincher's images above are how I remember PRINCE when it came to Birmingham in 1982. 

 

Have you discovered any history or photographs yet relating to PRINCE as there are quite a few from its early days and its history is pretty well known :captain:

I haven't found out very much yet I'm afraid, I confess I haven't put enough hours into the research yet, I did hear a rumour that Prince was once a floating anti aircraft gun platform on the Paddington arm during ww2 now if that were true that would be a fun restoration. 

 

I do have a copy of your 'file' for Prince though! Paul Edwards sent me a copy so I have a large list of waterways world pictures to find!

 

33 minutes ago, archie57 said:

Going further back, I recall seeing "Prince" at Lapworth , when owned by Jay Price, back in the early 70s, without an engine.  Mark Holtham bought it and fitted a Petter PJ3 - does it still have this? Amongst other things, he used it from time to time for taking the joey boat containing scrap wood from Warwick up to Stockton for burning. He sold it when he had built a Pimblotts look-alike called the "Nelson" - actually I think he swapped it for the "Sweden" and a butty, whose name escapes me!

Isn't Sweden a wooden anderton motor? I may well be wrong. 

 

No it has a JP3 now, with a Blackstone box, it used to have a hydraulic drive off the jp3! 

Edited by sparrowcycles
Forgot a bit
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39 minutes ago, archie57 said:

Going further back, I recall seeing "Prince" at Lapworth , when owned by Jay Price, back in the early 70s, without an engine.  Mark Holtham bought it and fitted a Petter PJ3 - does it still have this? Amongst other things, he used it from time to time for taking the joey boat containing scrap wood from Warwick up to Stockton for burning. He sold it when he had built a Pimblotts look-alike called the "Nelson" - actually I think he swapped it for the "Sweden" and a butty, whose name escapes me!

The Petter PJ3 was replaced by a B.M.C. 4 cylinder diesel with a hydraulic gearbox in 1981 by Bill Blaik, and this was replaced by the current Lister JS3 with a Lister Blackstone gearbox in 1983 when Barry Lycett prepared the boat to go onto the Thurmaston gravel run (it did not stay on 'the gravel' for long).

 

I think you are correct in that Mark Holtham exchanged PRINCE for SWEDEN as SWEDEN was formally owned by Bill Blaik - and NELSON was not built until 1980 which coincides with Mark Holtham selling SWEDEN :captain: 

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15 minutes ago, sparrowcycles said:

I haven't found out very much yet I'm afraid, I confess I haven't put enough hours into the research yet, I did hear a rumour that Prince was once a floating anti aircraft gun platform on the Paddington arm during ww2 now if that were true that would be a fun restoration. 

 

I do have a copy of your 'file' for Prince though! Paul Edwards sent me a copy so I have a large list of waterways world pictures to find!

 

During some PRINCE's time as a maintenance boat it was named CEMENT GUN PLANT No.2 and my understanding was used for rendering bridges and tunnels e.t.c.. This might be where it has been confused with an anti aircraft gun which I find very hard to believe.

 

It makes a refreshing change for my 'file' to be passed on from one boat owner to the next, although I have now changed the format to one that is chronological :captain:

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9 hours ago, archie57 said:

Going further back, I recall seeing "Prince" at Lapworth , when owned by Jay Price, back in the early 70s, without an engine.  Mark Holtham bought it and fitted a Petter PJ3 - does it still have this? Amongst other things, he used it from time to time for taking the joey boat containing scrap wood from Warwick up to Stockton for burning. He sold it when he had built a Pimblotts look-alike called the "Nelson" - actually I think he swapped it for the "Sweden" and a butty, whose name escapes me!

Bill’s butty was Willow Wren’s old and decrepit butty Cygnet which now has a motor stern and is called Belgium.  I don’t think there’s any clear evidence that this is its original name though.

 

Paul

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13 hours ago, pete harrison said:

During some PRINCE's time as a maintenance boat it was named CEMENT GUN PLANT No.2 and my understanding was used for rendering bridges and tunnels e.t.c.. This might be where it has been confused with an anti aircraft gun which I find very hard to believe.

 

It makes a refreshing change for my 'file' to be passed on from one boat owner to the next, although I have now changed the format to one that is chronological :captain:

Ah yes! I had read that online and Paul did say it had a pebble dashing machine mounted in it at some point (the welded mounts are still there) but I hadn't connected that with the anti aircraft gun story! Definitely makes sense. 

I rather like the name cement Gun Plant No2...

Am I right in thinking that very few photos were taken of maintenance boats? It would be good to see how it looked and what version of BW colours it had. 

 

Phew, I'm glad you were ok with it being shared, if possible would it be ok to look at the new improved version too? :)

 

And you say it's a JS3 in there not a JP? 

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41 minutes ago, sparrowcycles said:

Ah yes! I had read that online and Paul did say it had a pebble dashing machine mounted in it at some point (the welded mounts are still there) but I hadn't connected that with the anti aircraft gun story! Definitely makes sense. 

I rather like the name cement Gun Plant No2...

Not strictly pebble dashing but BW did go through a period of spraying concrete on bridges known as guniting.  It is difficult to see how a Prince would be a suitable boat for this as the bow would have been too high.  I am told that the various Joshers which had their bows replaced by punt-like structures such as Columba, England, Mullet etc. were known as gunniting boats.

 

incidentally Jay Price posts on Facebook and Mark Holtham apparently lives in Worcester if you’re chasing up previous owners.  Bill Blaik’s address can be found on the Companies House website.

 

Paul

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2 hours ago, sparrowcycles said:

Phew, I'm glad you were ok with it being shared, if possible would it be ok to look at the new improved version too? :)

 

And you say it's a JS3 in there not a JP? 

The new 'improved' format of my boat files are constructed from the same records, and so will be the same information as you already have. I have not converted each file as I have quite a few, instead I edit them into the 'improved' format when contacted by a new owner - with each taking somewhere between 8 and 12 hours dependant on content.

 

As far as JS3 or JP3 I suggest you take a look at the engine serial number, I certainly have in the past and assuming the engine has not been changed then PRINCE has a Lister JS3 dating from 1962 but fitted in 1983. I think many people generalise by calling all derivatives of this engine range JP :captain: 

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37 minutes ago, pete harrison said:

The new 'improved' format of my boat files are constructed from the same records, and so will be the same information as you already have. I have not converted each file as I have quite a few, instead I edit them into the 'improved' format when contacted by a new owner - with each taking somewhere between 8 and 12 hours dependant on content.

 

As far as JS3 or JP3 I suggest you take a look at the engine serial number, I certainly have in the past and assuming the engine has not been changed then PRINCE has a Lister JS3 dating from 1962 but fitted in 1983. I think many people generalise by calling all derivatives of this engine range JP :captain: 

Thanks again Pete, when I am next up where Prince is moored I will check for sure. And I'd it has changed I will let you know! 

No worries about the improved version then! I wouldn't want you to go through all that when I have the info already! 

I was very impressed by the level of detail in it by the way. 

 

2 hours ago, Paul H said:

Not strictly pebble dashing but BW did go through a period of spraying concrete on bridges known as guniting.  It is difficult to see how a Prince would be a suitable boat for this as the bow would have been too high.  I am told that the various Joshers which had their bows replaced by punt-like structures such as Columba, England, Mullet etc. were known as gunniting boats.

 

incidentally Jay Price posts on Facebook and Mark Holtham apparently lives in Worcester if you’re chasing up previous owners.  Bill Blaik’s address can be found on the Companies House website.

 

Paul

Thanks for that info, Paul, I have heard about some of the converted joshers and it would certainly seem that Prince would have exactly the wrong bow for that sort of work! I will look into it further. I'm not on Facebook but will get a friend to message jay price. 

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3 hours ago, Paul H said:

Not strictly pebble dashing but BW did go through a period of spraying concrete on bridges known as guniting.  It is difficult to see how a Prince would be a suitable boat for this as the bow would have been too high.  I am told that the various Joshers which had their bows replaced by punt-like structures such as Columba, England, Mullet etc. were known as gunniting boats.

 

incidentally Jay Price posts on Facebook and Mark Holtham apparently lives in Worcester if you’re chasing up previous owners.  Bill Blaik’s address can be found on the Companies House website.

 

Paul

 They were also used for work inside Harecastle tunnel

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26 minutes ago, Derek R. said:

Regarding Lister engines, if JP stood for Joint Production, as in Lister and Blackstone(?), what does JS stand for?

I must confess to having limited interest in Lister JP's, although my boat had one fitted for its last four trips to Croxley Mill (removed in 1997). Having said that I am pretty sure the collaboration was between Lister and Ruston Hornsby, and there was also a Lister JK as well as the JP and JS - all similar but must be different in some way :captain: 

 

edit - some of the Barlow motors were re-engined during the 1950's with Lister JP2's, and it was one of these that ended up in my boat

Edited by pete harrison
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8 minutes ago, pete harrison said:

I must confess to having limited interest in Lister JP's as they are not really a 'historic' narrow boat engine (excluding a few tugs and the odd Josher), although my boat had one fitted for its last four trips to Croxley Mill (removed in 1997). Having said that I am pretty sure the collaboration was between Lister and Ruston Hornsby, and there was also a Lister JK as well as the JP and JS - all similar but must be different in some way :captain: 

 

edit - some of the Barlow motors were re-engined during the 1950's with Lister JP2's, and it was one of these that ended up in my boat

I haven't got my Engine Manual to hand, but I think the JS was a stationary engine, the JP was the 22 Hp Marine version and the JK was an uprated version giving more power and having a dry sump. JKs were certainly more powerful. There was one fitted in the modern boat Dove in the early 70s and it motored extremely well.

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1 hour ago, BuckbyLocks said:

I haven't got my Engine Manual to hand, but I think the JS was a stationary engine, the JP was the 22 Hp Marine version and the JK was an uprated version giving more power and having a dry sump. JKs were certainly more powerful. There was one fitted in the modern boat Dove in the early 70s and it motored extremely well.

Strictly speaking the JPM was the marine version (dry sump lubrication and a couple of water pump types) and the JP was the version used in generating sets and such like - though many have been converted to find their way into boats. They're the ones with the 'wrong' exhaust and flywheel position :-). As I recall the JK and JS were basically later versions with some improvements.

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2 hours ago, pete harrison said:

(snipped) . . . I am pretty sure the collaboration was between Lister and Ruston Hornsby, and there was also a Lister JK as well as the JP and JS - all similar but must be different in some way :captain: 

(snip)

That was it! - I'd read it recently but couldn't remember where. With other letters representing different things(?) it sort of blows the Production idea a bit sideways. Stationary might fit, or they may refer to something on a drawing board. Veering off topic a bit.

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Quite so. It's in the nature of things, and broadens the information scope.

Quite so. It's in the nature of things, and broadens the information scope.

 

There's an echo in here . . . connectivity issues!

Edited by Derek R.
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