blue in cassette toilets

[n.b.Goldie]

we use biological washing powder in our thetford, the cheapest we found is at morrisons for 89p.

 

Used it for a couple of years now and cannot fault it. It is dirt cheap but that is not why we use it, we use it because it works and is not carcinogenic like Blue.

 

Regards

Ditchdabbler

[ditchcrawler]

Exactly. Simple, costs nothing, but nobody listens.

 

Aerobic digestion.

 

..

I'm listening

[luctor et emergo]

Another for the 'use nothing' list. And my toilet is in the 14' living bit of the boat.

 

As for the 1000 liter holding tanks, nothing either. But those are at the front of the boat. ..

[magnetman]

I don't put any purchased product in the thetford unless its travelled the full length of my neck first

[John P]

Used it for a couple of years now and cannot fault it. It is dirt cheap but that is not why we use it, we use it because it works and is not carcinogenic like Blue.

 

Regards

Ditchdabbler

I'm normally a lurker rather than a poster,but as a microbiologist (retired) I can't resist this topic!

Firstly, formaldehyde (the active ingredient of blue) is indeed classified as a carcinogen which is why zoologists etc. stopped using it to preserve material and have changed over to alcohol. However, unless you regularly splash it all over yourself or spend evenings sniffing it, there is no need to worry. it does indeed work by "pickling" the effluent so that anaerobic (not using oxygen) processes can't take place. Some anaerobic processes ( eg fermentation in the biochemical sense of the word) don't produce nasty niffs. Who has ever complained about the smell from an alcoholic fermentation . However anaerobic breakdown of sewage inevitably progresses to processes producing some pretty foul odours. Hydrogen sulphide is the main culprit. I really don't know how yeast or biological washing powder could avoid this. It is very difficult to supply oxygen (from the air) to something like effluent efficiently enough to stop anaerobiosis unless you zap all the bacteria etc (see my comment on Blue). Unless you have a very wide tank so that the effluent is in a shallow layer , stir the effluent vigorously, and/ or bubble air through it, it will sooner or later progress to the nasty niff stage.

I did once wonder if it would be a good idea to apply forced ventilation to the holding tank of a pump out toilet, not so much as to avoid anaerobiosis, which would require quite a bit of energy expenditure, but merely to disperse the smell before it got annoying. My idea was to put a fan (solar powered?) into the vent from the tank to draw air over the surface thus dispersing the H2S and maybe neutralising it (it can be chemically oxidised). My boat is under shared ownership, however, and thus not suitable for "crazy" experiments!

Egad, I've let myself be down into a discussion on pump-outs/cassettes!

[IainW]

We've used Bio-magic and more recently Thetford 'green' from Go Outdoors. We use small amounts into the cassette and it works fine.

 

Try not to get super-comfy toilet paper as it is too thick for the biolovelies to do anything with quickly. The cheaper the better!

 

We use small amounts of Thetford Pink in the water holder. By using that after everything has disappeared and the flap is firmly shut, it creates a water barrier so no smells can come up from the cassette. So i'd say it is no smellier than a conventional land toilet and to be honest when emptying it smells more soapy than anything else really, although i may have trained my brain to think this!

[n.b.Goldie]

I have no idea how the chemistry using bio washing liquid works. I do know that all the solids including paper are reduced to liquid and there is no nasty niff, just the smell of washing liquid. After emptying and rinsing the cassette is spotlessly clean.

RegardsDitchdabbler

[GoodGurl]

I have no idea how the chemistry using bio washing liquid works. I do know that all the solids including paper are reduced to liquid and there is no nasty niff, just the smell of washing liquid. After emptying and rinsing the cassette is spotlessly clean.

RegardsDitchdabbler

same here, however i do swill the thetford around to aid the mixing, works for us

[John P]

I'm interested in the idea of using biological detergents. At the worst you would have a shiny cassette! The "bio" part refers to enzymes (eg proteases) which break up organic dirt by chopping up long chain molecules into smaller bits. This is not really digestion of your sewage, you still have the small bits to deal with. Depolymerisation occurs naturally as one of the initial steps of decomposition. One thing the"bio" might do, assisted by the detergent components is to help "liquefy" things. I don't think the problem with posh toilet paper is that it is more resistant to "biolovelies " (what a great term!) but that it has been designed not to disintegrate when wet. Because of this it can cause major problems for pump-outs and even sewage plants. It is also possible that the detergents kill bugs and therefor stop digestion. Chemicals with surfactant (detergent) properties form an important group of sanitizers/disinfectants widely used and popular with the food industry because they are tasteless, odourless and rinse away easily.

The simple message is, if it works for you, go ahead, but I doubt if it would be as useful for pump-outs. The larger volume involved could make it a bit costly.

 

Incidentally, I would personally avoid anything called "magic" unless the makers could tell me what the active ingredient was (oofle dust? )

[bowten]

I stopped using Blue or anything in my cassette years ago, I find them just a waste of money. If you keep the slide only cracked open a touch to prevent pressure build up and the lids down they don't smell at all, only when you empty them of course, but with a peg affixed upon your bugle you won't notice it.

+1 and I use the cheapest bio detergent and add to the cassette.

[mayalld]

Formaldehyde-based products like Blue are outdated, old technology. They just pickle the waste to mask the smell.

 

Most people are moving to bio-based products that introduce aerobic microbes to the waste.

 

Whilst you might wish it to be the case, the fact is that MOST people still use blue.

 

I stopped using Blue or anything in my cassette years ago, I find them just a waste of money. If you keep the slide only cracked open a touch to prevent pressure build up and the lids down they don't smell at all, only when you empty them of course, but with a peg affixed upon your bugle you won't notice it.

As thetford cassettes incorporate a pressure release valve that opens when inserted into the toilet, cracking the slide open would appear to be superfluous

[Chris Pink]

Whilst you might wish it to be the case, the fact is that MOST people still use blue.

 

 

 

You'll have some figures to backup that piece of hyperbole?

[IainW]

am i right in thinking bio clothes washing powder/liquid still have lots of chemicals that won't biodegrade quickly? We try to use ecover and ecover-style products so whilst tempted to use a cheap bio washing powder, i wonder if ecover or eco-friendly powder would work? Anyone used it?

[n.b.Goldie]

1360572364[/url]' post='1024268']

am i right in thinking bio clothes washing powder/liquid still have lots of chemicals that won't biodegrade quickly? We try to use ecover and ecover-style products so whilst tempted to use a cheap bio washing powder, i wonder if ecover or eco-friendly powder would work? Anyone used it?

 

Do ecover make a bio product? I think it is the bio bit that does the job. We do not empty our toilets into the canal so it has no environmental impact on our waterways. The water companies tell us their treatment plants deal with stuff such as bio so no worries there then!

Ditchdabbler

[WJM]

After much experimentation I now put two capfuls of Blue into each cassette. I found that anything less and the cassette begins to smell when it is nearing full. How anyone can use nothing amazes me, they must have a greatly reduced sense of smell!

[dor]

Whilst you might wish it to be the case, the fact is that MOST people still use blue.

 

 

 

 

You'll have some figures to backup that piece of hyperbole?

 

And you will have evidence for why this is hyperbole Mr Pink?

 

When I worked at a marina, the vast majority of moorers and visitors coming in for a pumpout used standard blue, and most of those preferred the proper 'Elsan'. Same went for cassette users. Many who tried 'bio' products or other similarly so-called more ecological products came back to blue. As did those who bought "cheap" Elsan Blue alternatives.

[alan_fincher]

After much experimentation I now put two capfuls of Blue into each cassette.

Is that TWO caps, as in "caps of the bottles", (which anyway vary in size, depending on bottle size)

 

Or two of the complete measuring caps to the cassette itself.

 

If the former, I'm amazed its enough - if the latter, it would seem to be total overkill, (but I guess it depends on the diet of the users!)

 

I also don't understand why anyone would choose to leave the flap part open. As Dave correctly says, there is a vent on the things anyway - I've never seen one that sems to have built up pressure as it is opened, (but agree t might be worrying if they did!......)

[WJM]

Is that TWO caps, as in "caps of the bottles", (which anyway vary in size, depending on bottle size)

 

Or two of the complete measuring caps to the cassette itself.

 

If the former, I'm amazed its enough - if the latter, it would seem to be total overkill, (but I guess it depends on the diet of the users!)

 

I also don't understand why anyone would choose to leave the flap part open. As Dave correctly says, there is a vent on the things anyway - I've never seen one that sems to have built up pressure as it is opened, (but agree t might be worrying if they did!......)

 

 

That is two cassette caps - I did try one and found it to be consistently inadequate. The cassette definitely began to smell. I also found that the cheaper alternatives to actual Elsan Blue to be a false economy, I needed to use a lot more.

 

I dont see the point in closing the flap - I open mine when the cassette goes in and close it when I remove it. Constant opening and closing just puts unnecessary wear on the mechanism.

[John P]

Solong has notices posted by other owners warning of the dire consequences of letting any cleaning /disinfecting agents (eg bleach, cillit bang, cif etc.) apart from blue getting into the pump out system. Apparently it neutralises the effects of the blue and causes bad smells which even persist after a pump out. Now my fellow openers are a level headed lot and I'm sure they are not making things up. Also it's an easy rule to conform to and a shared boat is not one on which to experiment on this matter,but I wonder what the basis for this is? Have others experienced this effect?

Bleaches contain chlorine, an oxidising agent, so I can accept that they may chemically alter the formaldehyde in blue, but the others have things like anionic surfactants as their active agents, so I can't think what could be happening there.

One thing that makes such matters difficult to resolve is that we are dealing with "bad smells" which are very subjective things. Some people's noses are much more sensitive than others

[mayalld]

You'll have some figures to backup that piece of hyperbole?

 

Did I miss you asking for figures on the hyperbole that most people have moved to alternatives?

[dor]

That is two cassette caps - I did try one and found it to be consistently inadequate

I dont see the point in closing the flap - I open mine when the cassette goes in and close it when I remove it

 

I suspect these two factors are related...

[WJM]

I suspect these two factors are related...

 

 

I did experiment with that too - I found that the position of the flap made no difference to me.

[bigcol]

totaly agree re elsan blue its the best product to use in a cassette tank.

 

Ive tried alternatives lots of cheaper products but elsan blue is the best.

 

I buy 2x 5 litres from midland swindlers for £20 to be fair I buy 4 at a time

if you buy it on the their freaky friday it works out £8 for 5 litres which is cheap.

 

local chandlers sell 1 litre for more than that.

 

also following folks to the elsan point Im amazed at folks not using anything! why??, certainly forces me to want to go back alot later.

 

If you put the right amount it, No bad smells at all guarenteed, what comes out is just blue liquid,

 

 

col

Edited February 11, 2013 by bigcol

[Guest]

totaly agree re elsan blue its the best product to use in a cassette tank.

 

Ive tried alternatives lots of cheaper products but elsan blue is the best.

 

I buy 2x 5 litres from midland swindlers for £20 to be fair I buy 4 at a time

if you buy it on the their freaky friday it works out £8 for 5 litres which is cheap.

 

local chandlers sell 1 litre for more than that.

 

also following folks to the elsan point Im amazed at folks not using anything! why??, certainly makes me want to go back alot later.

 

If you put the right amount it, No smells at allguarenteed, what comes out is just blue liquid,

 

 

col

 

I have only forgotten to put blue in our cassette once and it is not something I plan on repeating, you certainly know you have forgotten come emptying time.

[saltysplash]

We darn't leave the cassette flap open, We even have to lock the lid at the moment due to finding 'Little Miss Chatterbox' inside the cassette, Luckily she was two big to exit through the disposal pipe or she would probably be causing a serious blockage to Highlines septic tank by now.