Some more inverter type questions.

[Biggles]

I'm in the pay out and buy once camp.

 

We are 50% live aboard just 2 of us but we want land based comfort in our leccy things. So this is what I did.

 

1180A/h 2v x 6 Traction batteries

12/3000/120-50 Vicrton Inverter

2 x 115A/h alternators parrelled

1 x 6.5Kw Genny

500w of Solar through a MPPT.

 

Even with this lot we are still learning how to manage the batteries which will be an artical in my blog before long.

 

I think a lot of our probelmes with battery managment would be much improved when we are full time live aboard as the batteries will be getting much more excersise.

 

I think IMO its a case of getting the right kit I'm affraid and having to stump up the cash.

[by'eck]

I'm in the pay out and buy once camp.

 

We are 50% live aboard just 2 of us but we want land based comfort in our leccy things. So this is what I did.

 

1180A/h 2v x 6 Traction batteries

12/3000/120-50 Vicrton Inverter

2 x 115A/h alternators parrelled

1 x 6.5Kw Genny

500w of Solar through a MPPT.

 

Even with this lot we are still learning how to manage the batteries which will be an artical in my blog before long.

 

I think a lot of our probelmes with battery managment would be much improved when we are full time live aboard as the batteries will be getting much more excersise.

 

I think IMO its a case of getting the right kit I'm affraid and having to stump up the cash.

 

So that's an impressive 12 volt 1180 Ah battery bank. Should be more than enough to power the inverter.

 

Your two 115 amp (not amp hour) alternators paralleled shouldn't have too much trouble keeping them fully charged. Likewise the Victron, and solar panels to cover maybe a fridge left on when boat unattended.

 

What battery management problems do you envisage?

[Biggles]

Not envisage. Actually happening. The batteries are not getting fully charged. So with each charge they have been getting progressivly smaller in capacity. Its a massive subject. As I say I will blog it when I think I have found the full solution.

 

There is more to batteries than meets the eyes, and generators are not as good as you might think despite being "marine" and a massive price tag. and then you have to get all systems to talk to each other and aggree waht is an acceptable wave form and what is a full battery.

[DeanS]

Contrary to popular belief...

 

MONEY DOES NOT GROW ON TREES

 

 

[Titan]

Contrary to popular belief...

 

MONEY DOES NOT GROW ON TREES

 

 

 

Thats so true. Id go with the best you can when you can Dean. Not wishing to hijack here, Yesterday I contacted a Fairly well known inverter company amongst boaters, to ask the correct spec to fit my seconhand 2500w Inverter, to b told tech help desk not avail till 11am, duly called back and asked. What is the corect in line fuse size from battery to unit and what recomended cable size ? answer (fuse about 300 to 400 amps and as for the cable use one the size of your finger ) ?????? amazed

[by'eck]

Not envisage. Actually happening. The batteries are not getting fully charged. So with each charge they have been getting progressivly smaller in capacity. Its a massive subject. As I say I will blog it when I think I have found the full solution.

 

There is more to batteries than meets the eyes, and generators are not as good as you might think despite being "marine" and a massive price tag. and then you have to get all systems to talk to each other and aggree waht is an acceptable wave form and what is a full battery.

 

OK well you have a massive battery bank capacity, I would guess twice the size of what might be regarded as a large one. It really depends on your daily power consumption though. If you are only taking 10% out of them per day, a modest recharge time with the Victron (120 amp charger?) each day should suffice until they drop to the float stage at least.

 

If however you drain them down to say 10% SOC and only re-charge once a week, then you need to replace over 1000 Ah. This will take say 24 hours (top of the head figure) with the Victron on continuously to allow for charge to be absorbed within those thick battery plates.

 

These are two extremes I know, but mentioned to highlight the situation. In your electrical fit above you haven't mentioned what battery monitoring system you are using. Given the cost and size of your batteries I would suggest a shunt based system as well as maybe a Smartguage. I would also recommend a second mains charger as back up and redundancy which can be run in parallel with Victron if needed. It could also be the one you leave on float when on shore supply with boat un-attended.

 

If you have an issue with your genny not allowing the Victron its full charge current then this needs to be sorted as a priority. I had no issues with a Mastervolt 3000 rpm 6kVA genny driving a range of Sterling and Victron chargers.

[STUBAG]

Contrary to popular belief...

 

MONEY DOES NOT GROW ON TREES

 

 

Then why do banks have branches?

[Keith M]

Thats so true. Id go with the best you can when you can Dean. Not wishing to hijack here, Yesterday I contacted a Fairly well known inverter company amongst boaters, to ask the correct spec to fit my seconhand 2500w Inverter, to b told tech help desk not avail till 11am, duly called back and asked. What is the corect in line fuse size from battery to unit and what recomended cable size ? answer (fuse about 300 to 400 amps and as for the cable use one the size of your finger ) ?????? amazed

 

Are they members of the BMF or BMEA I am sure that they would like to know?

 

Keith

[nb Innisfree]

Don't forget, batteries takes at least 24 hrs to get to 100% SoC irrespective of ah capacity or number of batts. Any shorter charge time means they are not fully charged which reduces their life span. It's unavoidable no matter what method is used.

[nb Innisfree]

Edited to clarify my most recent thoughts.

 

 

How does this sound.

 

I get a Victron Phoenix invertor (2000Watt)

I add 3 more batteries increasing it from 330A to 660A

I run the boat engine and 175A alternator a few hours a day to recharge. (mostly going slow or idlng on towpath)

I return to the marina for 1 week a month to give things a good charge to 100%

I use a small 900Watt gennie (cheap one) as a backup recharging option when on the towpath.

 

 

COMPARED TO ORIGINAL PLAN WHICH WAS...

 

330A batteries.

Dedicated invertor just for fridge.

Kipor Gennie (LPG) 2600Watt to run washer and desktop pcs (2 of)

 

 

The power needs are:

 

I need to run a washing machine weekly.

I need to run a tumble drier weekly.

I need to run 2 desktop pcs daily for 3hrs.

I need to run laptops permanently.

12v tv in the evenings.

Mobile phone on permanent charge (it's the internet dongle)

 

Yes I would go with Victron plan but with a digital genny instead of a cheapo one, a 2kva Kipor will do the job, some books recommend a monthly long absorption charge and I used to do that but it's been my experience over time that at least a weekly one is needed to prevent sulphation and voltage drop. My advice would be to use a digital genny to give a raised absorption charge at least once a week, do this by using main alternator to bulk charge to acceptance voltage each day and then weekly, or less if voltage or SoC dictates, follow up with a genny and Victron absorption, genny will soon drop into tickover (a non digital genny will stay at same revs) and be unobtrusive. Given a decent sized alternator, say 20-25% of batt capacity, your daily bulk charge should only take an hour or so.

 

Leaving Victron on charge for a few days when connected to shore power every few weeks would be the icing on the cake and prolong batt life even further.

 

ETA: Don't forget, if for instance you double your batt bank size you more than double your amp hour capacity due to the Peukert effect.

Edited February 1, 2013 by nb Innisfree

[Hawkmoth]

Edited to clarify my most recent thoughts.

 

 

How does this sound.

 

I get a Victron Phoenix invertor (2000Watt)

I add 3 more batteries increasing it from 330A to 660A

I run the boat engine and 175A alternator a few hours a day to recharge. (mostly going slow or idlng on towpath)

I return to the marina for 1 week a month to give things a good charge to 100%

I use a small 900Watt gennie (cheap one) as a backup recharging option when on the towpath.

 

 

COMPARED TO ORIGINAL PLAN WHICH WAS...

 

330A batteries.

Dedicated invertor just for fridge.

Kipor Gennie (LPG) 2600Watt to run washer and desktop pcs (2 of)

 

 

The power needs are:

 

I need to run a washing machine weekly.

I need to run a tumble drier weekly.

I need to run 2 desktop pcs daily for 3hrs.

I need to run laptops permanently.

12v tv in the evenings.

Mobile phone on permanent charge (it's the internet dongle)

You will not be able to run a washer/dryer from batteries alone. The power required is simply too great. While heating or drying you will be taking around 200 amps out of you battery, not amp/hrs, but real time amps. You must be on a genny or shore power to run one.

[Biggles]

You will not be able to run a washer/dryer from batteries alone. The power required is simply too great. While heating or drying you will be taking around 200 amps out of you battery, not amp/hrs, but real time amps. You must be on a genny or shore power to run one.

 

Fit it with temp controlled water inlet in my case 40c and the machien will run quite happily form the inverter. If we need a hotter wash we simply do it when we are on the move.

 

 

 

If however you drain them down to say 10% SOC and only re-charge once a week, then you need to replace over 1000 Ah. This will take say 24 hours (top of the head figure) with the Victron on continuously to allow for charge to be absorbed within those thick battery plates.

 

I know there is going top be an answer thats not logical, but how can using 10% of a 1180Ah be 1000Ah, shurly it would be 118Ah

 

Given the cost and size of your batteries I would suggest a shunt based system as well as maybe a Smartguage.

 

I have a BMV600s Shore power will only ever be for us at this stage an add hoc thing. The boat was planned for off grid living so a second charger has not been considered. Relying on the solar to do charging when not aboard. It is of course very slow at this time of year.

 

If you have an issue with your genny not allowing the Victron its full charge current then this needs to be sorted as a priority. I had no issues with a Mastervolt 3000 rpm 6kVA genny driving a range of Sterling and Victron chargers.

 

I have issues with the genny which I am in the process of sorting. A new and supposidly much better AVR arrived from the manufacturer today.

 

 

Contrary to popular belief...

 

MONEY DOES NOT GROW ON TREES

 

 

 

True

 

But some things can't be skimpped on. Whatever you do go for a decent inverter. My choice is Victron. I have no experiance of any other make, but I am happy that my current problems are not due to the Victron, and I have had first rate customer service from them in resolving the problem although its not theirs.

[mrsmelly]

Contrary to popular belief...

 

MONEY DOES NOT GROW ON TREES

 

 

 

Hi Dean

 

I think compromise is what boats are all about. Biggles has a hugely expensive set up that will become more and more expensive as the years go buy and parts of it wear out and need fixing. That is entirely his choice and what he wants so fair play to him. I though am of the opinion that a boat is quite simply a boat and house sized electrical consumption is not needed. We have lived for many years with enough electric kit to get by very comfortably without huge running costs and I think you appear to be the same except your kids being onboard with their new fangled gadgets. Yes you need a washing machine we have always had one but a gennie will cover that. I believe that as with over 99 percent of boats a gas instalation is an absolute necesaty as electric cooking is simply expensive and needing electric just to say boil a kettle for a cup of coffee is.............well ask Gibbo what he thinks. Put your money into other stuff and keep your electrics simple it will make sense in the long run.

 

Tim

[by'eck]

If however you drain them down to say 10% SOC and only re-charge once a week, then you need to replace over 1000 Ah. This will take say 24 hours (top of the head figure) with the Victron on continuously to allow for charge to be absorbed within those thick battery plates.

 

I know there is going top be an answer thats not logical, but how can using 10% of a 1180Ah be 1000Ah, shurly it would be 118Ah

 

Given the cost and size of your batteries I would suggest a shunt based system as well as maybe a Smartguage. I would also recommend a second mains charger as back up and redundancy which can be run in parallel with Victron if needed. It could also be the one you leave on float when on shore supply with boat un-attended.

 

I have a BMV600s Shore power will only ever be for us at this stage an add hoc thing. The boat was planned for off grid living so a second charger has not been considered. Relying on the solar to do charging when not aboard. It is of course very slow at this time of year.

 

If you have an issue with your genny not allowing the Victron its full charge current then this needs to be sorted as a priority. I had no issues with a Mastervolt 3000 rpm 6kVA genny driving a range of Sterling and Victron chargers.

 

I have issues with the genny which I am in the process of sorting. A new and supposidly much better AVR arrived from the manufacturer today.

 

You didn't ready my post correctly - 90% taken out

 

Still recommend second charger particularly if you are off-grid. Redundancy, quicker charging hence less time with genny on etc.

 

Good luck with the AVR - hope it fixes the issue.

[Biggles]

You didn't ready my post correctly - 90% taken out

 

Still recommend second charger particularly if you are off-grid. Redundancy, quicker charging hence less time with genny on etc.

 

Good luck with the AVR - hope it fixes the issue.

 

Opps I panick when they get to 70% (30% used).

 

Would 2 chargers simply mean they cancel each other out. If I have the engine running and the Victron charging the sum is still only what the batteries want to take not the combined sum of the 2. Infact if the engine is running the charge voltage is higher and the charge drops lowwere than if the engine is off.

[nb Innisfree]

Opps I panick when they get to 70% (30% used).

 

Would 2 chargers simply mean they cancel each other out. If I have the engine running and the Victron charging the sum is still only what the batteries want to take not the combined sum of the 2. Infact if the engine is running the charge voltage is higher and the charge drops lowwere than if the engine is off.

 

One charger will shut down but only when acceptance voltage has been reached, when in bulk charge the two will be combined.

[Dave_P]

I tend to agree with the 'keep it simple' approach. When I first moved onto my boat, it was in the full understanding that it wasn't a house and I would be doing things differently.

 

I have 12v lights, 12v fridge and 12v laptop and phone chargers all running direct from 330ah of battery, which is obviously a lot less than some posters but more than adequate. Surely the key thing about available battery power if in how much you keep them charged, not how many batteries you have? Yes, having 1000ah of batteries would mean charging less often, but the charges would take much more time, so what have you actually gained?

 

I have a bargain basement 2000w MSW inverter bought for just over £100 on Amazon which has worked faultlessly and supplies all my 240v needs. These are - TV, twin tub washing machine, iron and amplifier. The only thing which it struggles to power is the microwave (which probably needs PSW).

 

I also have a 1000w bargain basement genny (£60 second-hand) which will also power all my 240v needs (including the microwave) whilst charging my batteries, and has also performed flawlessly.

 

I'm really not sure what the point would be for me to be shelling out 100s or 1000s of pounds to improve my set-up. What would I be getting that I don't already have? Apart from avoiding the annoyance of only being able to use the microwave whilst running the genny. I've never used microwaves much anyway!

 

When I first had my boat it had a fancy expensive pure sine wave inverter and it broke. The cost to repair it was more than I paid for my brand new replacement.

 

The OP is right that money doesn't grow on trees and if I were him I would be looking to try to save some with my choices so I could keep some back as a contingency for the myriad other unforeseen costs which go with boat ownership.

[by'eck]

Opps I panick when they get to 70% (30% used).

 

Would 2 chargers simply mean they cancel each other out. If I have the engine running and the Victron charging the sum is still only what the batteries want to take not the combined sum of the 2. Infact if the engine is running the charge voltage is higher and the charge drops lowwere than if the engine is off.

 

Paralleling chargers has the same benefits as with alternators. They cannot possibly cancel each other out. Its seems to be a common myth that they will fight each other as well. This is the worst form of bullshit.

 

Assuming both chargers are multi-stage ones there will come a time when one jumps to float mode before the other or in the case of alternators when one hits the voltage regulator limit. This will probably put it in idle but this has little significance to charge times/rates since the batteries will be close to fully charged and only demanding a small current easily provided by one of the devices.

 

BTW Sterling used to offer a mount for two of their 50 amp chargers to allow parallel operation.

 

One small caveat. If you have say a 50 amp charger that happily puts its full current initially into charging a modest sized battery bank, adding another identical one in parallel will try to force twice the current into the bank. Depending on size of bank this will raise the voltage to some degree as the batteries resist the higher current, which will reduce the combined current taken from the chargers. You may only get a combined 90 amps going in, but still worthwhile.

Edited February 3, 2013 by by'eck

[bowten]

As we are talking about paralleling chargers/etc what would the effect of this scenario be?I have a 150amp alternator and a Travel pack running the Victron Inverter/charger the charger gives 70 amp when the Travel pack is switched on from the remote.The battery pack is 440amp.So I have approx. 220 amp charge rate.So should I leave the T/Pack switched on and use the charger and the alternator or just use the alternator?Or should I disconnect the alternator and just use the T/Pack and charger.

[by'eck]

220 amp potentially into a 440 Ah bank is excessive. The charge absorption rate will limit the current taken as the charge volts quickly rise. This not to mention reduction of battery life and gassing depending on volts, which will deplete electrolyte.

 

I don't think you will loose anything by just using the 150 amp alternator to charge such a bank which will by itself be providing a 3:1 battery to charge current ratio, and is the maximum you should be using.

 

For the record 10:1 is the generally accepted ratio to provide a charge rate slow enough to allow absorption as the charge process continues and without impinging on battery life. Many use a higher charge current source to speed up charge times when not on 24/7 shore supply. It needs to be balanced against acceptable battery life though.

 

Disconnecting the alternator seems a bit drastic. You would need to disconnect the drive belt as well.

Edited February 3, 2013 by by'eck

[bowten]

220 amp potentially into a 440 Ah bank is excessive. The charge absorption rate will limit the current taken as the charge volts quickly rise. This not to mention reduction of battery life and gassing depending on volts, which will deplete electrolyte.

 

I don't think you will loose anything by just using the 150 amp alternator to charge such a bank which will by itself be providing a 3:1 battery to charge current ratio, and is the maximum you should be using.

 

For the record 10:1 is the generally accepted ratio to provide a charge rate slow enough to allow absorption as the charge process continues and without impinging on battery life. Many use a higher charge current source though to speed up charge times when not on 24/7 shore supply. It needs to be balanced against acceptable battery life though.

 

Disconnecting the alternator seems a bit drastic. You would need to disconnect the drive belt as well.

So it might be better to allow the Victron to charge using the T/Pack and disconnect the alternator.

[by'eck]

So it might be better to allow the Victron to charge using the T/Pack and disconnect the alternator.

 

Your call - I would just switch off Victron.