Bang.........that was New Mills Marina

[furnessvale]

General consensus of opinion around the moorings and up and down the cut, is that this is just a debt clearing exercise "they will be back"

 

Pity those who paid up front for long term mooring. Cleared up with the debt will be any liability on behalf of the owners to honour that agreement.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[kiki]

hello to everybody at new mills marina,i am not really suprised to hear new mills marina has gone bang. i was unfortunate to be moored their juring the anglo welsh/brammer esc take over, and was alarmed at the rapid deteriation of the site.but working at a local motorcycle repair shop, and the marina did take liveaboards it suited me at the time.i do agree with what kiki and dave mayall state about the brammers. brammer senior used to swan around survaying his domain,and talking rubish to anybody that would listen. but i have to disagree with dave,s statement that nothing got done, and they did not care.well maybe they didnt,but consider this.towards the end of my stay at new mills a young couple came to moor at the marina with a new sailaway shell and started to fit it out, then one night they came home to the boat and found 2 inches of water above the bedroom floorboards, they knocked on the flat door,rung the office number all to no avail.then somebody told them to see the engineer called tony [always wore a raccoon skin hat complete with tail] who lived on a shell at the bottom of the yard. so just after 11pm they got the engineer out of bed,nearly 2 hours later boat pumped out,water tank,pump and pipework checked,he explained what had happened then assured them that their pride and joy was not sinking, he even put his reputation at stake [brave man], when asked why he turned out at a silly time of night in the pouring rain, he just grinned and seid its my job.where were the brammers?.tucked up in bed. and did he get paid? proberbly not. on another occasion he had a 30 footer aground on the slipway,lay on pallets placed in the water welding plates on the bow with his apprentice inside on fire watch.also i know for a fact he never turned a boat away no matter what time of night for a pumpout, diesel ,or gas.[always asked for a cheque].what im saying is if an employee of the company was willing to put that mutch effort into his job. why did the brammers not equal his efforts?.so sorry dave it wasnt always like it is now.the last i heard about him, his dad had died and it destroyed him.but where is he now? what is he doing now? and is he still riding a norton commando?.

 

Toto, that is a very kind thing you have said about Tony who still lives at New Mils - I will pass it on to him. He has always been called out to help, and still does. Tony sadly for all his efforts is one of the moorers who has been left without his mooring which was given to him in lieu of payment of monies owed. He will possibly be the worst off of everyone. - thats thanks for years of service !!

ps. the racoon skin hat has been replaced by a disreputable beanie of suspect origion.

pps. Senior brammer still talks a load of shite.

 

Pity those who paid up front for long term mooring. Cleared up with the debt will be any liability on behalf of the owners to honour that agreement.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

 

That is certainly very worrying indeed, my heart goes out to a couple of very nice retired people who have devoted their retirement to mission work in the Middle East - less deserving people of this kind of result I cant think of.

Edited February 4, 2013 by kiki

[mayalld]

General consensus of opinion around the moorings and up and down the cut, is that this is just a debt clearing exercise "they will be back"

I suspect that it all depends on whether they manage to buy the lease from the receiver.

[folkonthewater]

We've had some phone calls from good old mates on the New Mills Marina moorings.Colin and Pauline and Sheila and Norman and Tony.Don't have our boat any more couldn't afford a house and a boat and we came close to losing the boat when Evesham was flooded.

 

Community spirit when we were on the winter mooring at NM was special.Tracey our near neighbour....what a chef...what a Irish coffee you could fall on the frozen cut in winter and thaw it out in a minute after one of those.

 

Tracey came a week after us and Tony,well Tony had already been there forever.He was working on his boat and living in his horsebox if he doesn't have squatters rights by now there must be some law that grants him the space.He was working for the previous owner when we arrived so he has a long history there.

 

Chris and Enid are good mates of ours and they paid out a vast sum for a long mooring.Tony lent a large sum of his own money to NMM to keep them going,he was working for them and trusted in them to pay him back.

 

It's a sad thing but the Brammers could seem very plausible and no doubt could be pursuasive.Not going to go into character destruction because everyone who knows them knows exactly what they are and what they can never be.

 

The wake of destruction and human misery they leave behind is legendary.Now that the mighty BW are no more and the financial help for the Trust is limited it makes me wonder if a small site like NM would be a goer for them to take on.Maybe they will just sell the site off for development but wouldn't it be a dream come true,considering that most of the moorers are liveaboards,if the trust,accepting that the marina is a bombsite and doesn't have the size or facilities to generate a half decent income without a huge amout of investment,could consider allowing the moorers to stay and to pay the trust directly for the moorings while paying privately for services.

 

We feel most for Chris and Enid and Tony Rawnsley.It's odd you know I'm a retired time served maintenance engineer and I've learnt to my cost over the years that there only a few people that I can trust to do a job properly on the house on the car so I do most of my own work.The only man I ever trusted to work on our boat was Tony Rawnsley and he never let me down. The last repair he did was to repack the stern gland that was 5 years ago and we are in touch with the new owners of our old floating home and that repair is still going strong.

 

Tony was as straight as a die with us and if someone new takes over and needs a reliable engineer well he's already there.

 

Chris and Dy

 

Ex-Liveaboards

[Doorman]

 

It's a sad thing but the Brammers could seem very plausible and no doubt could be pursuasive.Not going to go into character destruction because everyone who knows them knows exactly what they are and what they can never be.

 

Chris and Dy

 

Ex-Liveaboards

 

Hi Chris,

 

I have followed this thread with interest because we have moored at several marinas during the last seven years of living aboard and the comparisons are vast between them all. One place in particular at Fettler's Wharf on the Rufford branch of the Leeds & Liverpool Canal, draws the closest in terms of despotic behaviour from the owners.

 

I must state though, that they never let their marina fall into disrepair and their manager Les was run off his feet trying to accommodate everyone's needs. It was simply the behaviour of the elder who tried to run his empire with an autocratic attitude of a 'what I say goes' mentality. Strangely enough, the moorers there tolerated his arrogance and ignorance too. That is until a new marina was built opposite his at Fettler's, then there was a mass exodus across the canal to moor in a decent civilised place.

 

With regard to the Brammers being plausible, some of the biggest con men that I have encountered have been well heeled and persuasive in nature. The biggest 'hit' that we ever suffered in one of our shops was by a 'city suited' gent who tricked one of my staff into accepting a cheque for cases of Champagne that could not be verified by the usual means. His patter, she told me, was of the finest quality. His character though, was lower than a snakes belly!

 

Mike

Edited February 7, 2013 by Doorman

[kiki]

Reading these last two posts really gives me goosebumps. I am happy to say that the spirit between most of the boaters is great, just a few that tend to think they can sit on their hands and others will do all the work. I amhoping that C&RT dont dismantle the marina, its a historic boatbuilding yard and it would be tragic to see those lovely derbyshire stone buildings leveled for some flats or housing development. We all still sit and wait, nothing is known by anyone at the marina as to what is going on, Brammer came and left, took his car somewhere safe. Mind you casting my eyes around the moorings yesterday morning, the bins are now neatly stowed away out of site, the recycling bins are neatly put away and no longer overflowing, and the gates are being locked again....seems the marina is improving without a landlord there....makes you think doesn't it.

Edited February 8, 2013 by kiki

[folkonthewater]

Is there any thought Kiki that you may be able to take over the lease as a moorers co-operative?

Edited February 7, 2013 by folkonthewater

[Doorman]

Reading these last two posts really gives me goosebumps. I am happy to say that the spirit between most of the boaters is great, just a few that tend to think they can sit on their hands and others will do all the work.

 

Agreed. It's what appealed to us two city dwellers when we first experienced life on the canals. Sadly though, that camaraderie can sometimes be abused by the minority who do sit on their hands and let others do all of the work.

 

We have friends who are continuous cruisers and last year when they wintered in our village, we helped them out with various things like fetching coal, gas and diesel in our car from the local marina. During their stay, Tree Surgeons were contracted to trim some of the canal side trees that were posing a problem and allowed us to take their off-cuts to use as fuel. As two of us had chain saws, we decided to saw the wood into appropriate lengths for our stoves. A job that took a couple of days to complete.

 

During this time, bearing in mind that it was January last year, one of the boaters would languish in the comfort of his cabin, or the bar of the pub. After I bagged up the wood that I'd sawn and shared it out equally, I asked this guy if I could borrow his brush to sweep up the mountain of sawdust from the wood, thinking that he'd be shamed into sharing some of the work. Not much chance of that! He simply reached out for his brush and started to pass it my way, that is until I advised him to smear some grease upon the handle end in readiness for me inserting it where the sun doesn't shine.

 

This and some other similar experiences, taught me again the lesson from the gangster that I mentioned in an earlier post, in as much as; some people see kindness as a weakness and exploit it to their advantage.

Edited February 7, 2013 by Doorman

[kiki]

Is there any thought Kiki that you may be able to take over the lease as a moorers co-operative?

 

As I mentioned earlier, the problems this would create are just not worth the effort. The work would be undertaken by the same few that are doing it now, while most sat on their hands and did nothing - its always been like that as frankly the ONLY maintainance that has been done in the past 3 years has been by the same said few, with Tony doing the pumpouts etc. This would not change but I suspect that all memebers of this consortium would expect free moorings etc....it could turn into a real mess. The only way it could be salvaged is if CART collected the mooring fees and the small group of boaters continued to do the maintainance, and collected any money they needed towards it as and when. But the administration of it would be a nightmare. I am very flattered that people think me and the much beloved could undertake this with a few others, but with the Much beloved's blood pressure and my vile temper I imagine it would turn into something resembling Mordor in no time at all.

 

Agreed. It's what appealed to us two city dwellers when we first experienced life on the canals. Sadly though, that camaraderie can sometimes be abused by the minority who do sit on their hands and let others do all of the work.

 

We have friends who are continuous cruisers and last year when they wintered in our village, we helped them out with various things like fetching coal, gas and diesel in our car from the local marina. During their stay, Tree Surgeons were contracted to trim some of the canal side trees that were posing a problem and allowed us to take their off-cuts to use as fuel. As two of us had chain saws, we decided to saw the wood into appropriate lengths for our stoves. A job that took a couple of days to complete.

 

During this time, bearing in mind that it was January last year, one of the boaters would languish in the comfort of his cabin, or the bar of the pub. After I bagged up the wood that I'd sawn and shared it out equally, I asked this guy if I could borrow his brush to sweep up the mountain of sawdust from the wood, thinking that he'd be shamed into sharing some of the work. Not much chance of that! He simply reached out for his brush and started to pass it my way, that is until I advised him to smear some grease upon the handle end in readiness for me inserting it where the sun doesn't shine.

 

This and some other similar experiences, taught me again the lesson from the gangster that I mentioned in an earlier post, in as much as; some people see kindness as a weakness and exploit it to their advantage.

 

That is certainly true of many people in many walks of life. I would certainly have liked to have you as my neighbour

Edited February 8, 2013 by kiki

[Doorman]

 

But the administration of it would be a nightmare.

 

Once again, I agree.

 

It would take a strong group of like minded people to conduct such an operation. But, as it appears from yours and Dave's posts, there does seem to a core group of moorers there whom appear desperate to remain. If an agreement with C&RT could be negotiated whereby they act as a chief landlord, but allow designated moorers to oversee and maintain the site, there could be light at the end of a very long tunnel.

 

It would be interesting to learn from others with a similar situation, on how they navigated around the red tape and began to control their own destiny.

 

Mike

 

That is certainly true of many people in many walks of life. I would certainly have liked to have you as my neighbour

 

I was just in the process of warming the engine up and setting sail to New Mills when I caught your edited version of the original post, revealing your 'vile temper' and much beloved's high blood pressure. As I too suffer from high blood pressure and have long since resisted the charms of feisty women, I've shut the engine down and re-tied the mooring lines.

[Dave_P]

As I mentioned earlier, the problems this would create are just not worth the effort. The work would be undertaken by the same few that are doing it now, while most sat on their hands and did nothing - its always been like that as frankly the ONLY maintainance that has been done in the past 3 years has been by the same said few, with Tony doing the pumpouts etc. This would not change but I suspect that all memebers of this consortium would expect free moorings etc....it could turn into a real mess. The only way it could be salvaged is if CART collected the mooring fees and the small group of boaters continued to do the maintainance, and collected any money they needed towards it as and when. But the administration of it would be a nightmare. I am very flattered that people think me and the much beloved could undertake this with a few others, but with the Much beloved's blood pressure and my vile temper I imagine it would turn into something resembling Mordor in no time at all.

 

 

Simple solution: Everyone pays their mooring fees into a pot. Those that do work claim back an agreed amount from that pot for the work they do. That way people either pay more and work less or work more and pay less. And everyone is happy. If there is a shortfall in labour, contractors could be employed from the fund to cover this.

[mayalld]

I was just in the process of warming the engine up and setting sail to New Mills when I caught your edited version of the original post, revealing your 'vile temper' and much beloved's high blood pressure. As I too suffer from high blood pressure and have long since resisted the charms of feisty women, I've shut the engine down and re-tied the mooring lines.

 

Don't believe a word of it!

 

Bridget is no shrinking violet, but neither does she have a vile temper. If we are half as fortunate in our new neighbours, we will be lucky indeed.

 

Whilst our letter giving notice at NMM co-incided with the liquidation, after we had decided a couple of weeks earlier that we were going, In truth the problems with the attitude of the management had been simmering with us for many months.

 

It is only the fact that we will miss Bridget and Paul (and Pauline, Colin, Tony, Norman, Sheila, Chris, Enid, Keith, Isabelle too) that kept us hanging on there.

 

Luckily, we aren't moving hundreds of miles, so we will still be able to join them out and about...

[kiki]

Awwww she says, thanks for that guys, my temper tends to sit on the back burner for months and then I just explode like that unpronouncable Volcano thing....I really dont have the time or tact to deal with lazy people.

I saw Tony looking dejected today sitting outside in the dark with his tea and really felt for him. It makes me outraged that this has happened to him. ONE good thing that might come out of the Brammers return is that at least he and Chris and Enid will not lose their money.

Edited February 8, 2013 by kiki

[mayalld]

the ONE and only good thing that might come out of the Brammers return is that at least he and Chris and Enid will not lose their money.

 

That isn't a foregone conclusion.

 

If the liquidation was an exercise in sheding debt, then the Tony, Chris and Enid are unsecured creditors of the liquidated company.

 

Whatever moral obligation we know is owed to them, it is very unlikely that Brammer Newco would have the slightest legal obligation to them

[Allan(nb Albert)]

That isn't a foregone conclusion.

 

If the liquidation was an exercise in sheding debt, then the Tony, Chris and Enid are unsecured creditors of the liquidated company.

 

Whatever moral obligation we know is owed to them, it is very unlikely that Brammer Newco would have the slightest legal obligation to them

 

It is not a voluntary liquidation. A petition presented to Liverpool High Court on 21st November 2012, by Eon Energy Solutions, resulted in a winding up order being granted a couple of weeks ago, with the official receiver appointed as the liquidator.

[kiki]

editied becuase i repeated myself, repeated myself

Edited February 8, 2013 by kiki

[mayalld]

It is not a voluntary liquidation. A petition presented to Liverpool High Court on 21st November 2012, by Eon Energy Solutions, resulted in a winding up order being granted a couple of weeks ago, with the official receiver appointed as the liquidator.

 

Yes, I am aware of that.

 

However they arrived at the liquidation, it remains the case that the directors may well be sitting there with the intention of buying the assets out of the liquidation.

 

Given that the only asset is the lease, and that the value of a repairing lease after dilapidations is effectively Nil (because the amount needed to be spent to bring the property back to the standard that it was in when let exceeds the value of the lease), it is entirely possible that they will buy the lease for almost nothing and fail to make good the site again.

[kiki]

Yes, I am aware of that.

 

However they arrived at the liquidation, it remains the case that the directors may well be sitting there with the intention of buying the assets out of the liquidation.

 

Given that the only asset is the lease, and that the value of a repairing lease after dilapidations is effectively Nil (because the amount needed to be spent to bring the property back to the standard that it was in when let exceeds the value of the lease), it is entirely possible that they will buy the lease for almost nothing and fail to make good the site again.

 

Seriously can they do that ?? Well we certainly do live in interesting times I must say. I am missing all the action as the office and flat at the marina have been broken into last night - Police are everywhere at the moment. Of course the gate was most likely not locked. its ironic really isn't it. We begged for the lock to be fixed for months and our pleas were ignored. Now there has been a break in, and the only damage done was to the home and office of the landlord. Things just seem to be going from bad to worse. I wish we at least knew something, this is the problem when all you have is runour and conjecture, everyone is feeling a bit disgruntled by now as you can imagine.

[mayalld]

Seriously can they do that ?? Well we certainly do live in interesting times I must say.

 

Pretty much yes they can.

 

The lease from CRT will specify that at the end of the term (ISRT that there is around 70 years term), the site is to be returned to the landlord in the same condition as it was when let, what is known as a "repairing lease".

 

Any long leasehold has a purchase value (the "assignment premium") which is the price at which the lessor (in this case the official receiver as sucessor to NMM Ltd) can effectively sell the remaining term of the lease to another person.

 

In the case of New Mills, figures between £60k and £100k have been bandied around as the value of the lease premium.

 

However, any assignee paying a lease premium and taking on the lease also takes on an obligation to continue to maintain the site to original condition. If the site is not in original condition when assigned, then naturally the value of the lease is diminished by the backlog of repairs.

 

The backlog of repairs is such that the lease will probably be sold for very little, and the purchaser will acquire a liability for a lot of repairs.

 

If the buyer actually carries out the repairs, the site will cost him the value of the assignment premium. If he doesn't, it will cost him very little.

 

Eventually, CRT might take action to enforce the repairing obligations, and they go bump again.

[David Mack]

Pretty much yes they can.

 

The lease from CRT will specify that at the end of the term (ISRT that there is around 70 years term), the site is to be returned to the landlord in the same condition as it was when let, what is known as a "repairing lease".

 

Any long leasehold has a purchase value (the "assignment premium") which is the price at which the lessor (in this case the official receiver as sucessor to NMM Ltd) can effectively sell the remaining term of the lease to another person.

 

In the case of New Mills, figures between £60k and £100k have been bandied around as the value of the lease premium.

 

However, any assignee paying a lease premium and taking on the lease also takes on an obligation to continue to maintain the site to original condition. If the site is not in original condition when assigned, then naturally the value of the lease is diminished by the backlog of repairs.

 

The backlog of repairs is such that the lease will probably be sold for very little, and the purchaser will acquire a liability for a lot of repairs.

 

If the buyer actually carries out the repairs, the site will cost him the value of the assignment premium. If he doesn't, it will cost him very little.

 

Eventually, CRT might take action to enforce the repairing obligations, and they go bump again.

 

Is there not a break clause in the lease under which CRT can terminate it early and retake possession in the event of insolvency of the lessee?

 

The receiver is supposed to get best price for the assets. So it is by no means certain that the same folk will buy it back. Anyone expressing interest should get the opportunity to put in a better bid.

[MtB]

Is there not a break clause in the lease under which CRT can terminate it early and retake possession in the event of insolvency of the lessee?

 

The receiver is supposed to get best price for the assets. So it is by no means certain that the same folk will buy it back. Anyone expressing interest should get the opportunity to put in a better bid.

 

I'll second that. The few leases I've seen contain a clause that 'determines' the lease on insolvency of the lessee. 'Determine' is legal code for cancelled.

 

And yes, the receiver is legally obliged to obtain the maximum cash possible from disposal of the assets, so he would need a damned good reason not to sell the lease (assuming it isn't cancelled) to the highest offer. The slight difficulty here is that you will not know what the Brammers have offered for it (if anything), nor will you know if any undue pressure is being brought to bear on the receiver personally, if you get what I mean.

 

MtB

[Tacet]

 

The lease from CRT will specify that at the end of the term (ISRT that there is around 70 years term), the site is to be returned to the landlord in the same condition as it was when let, what is known as a "repairing lease".

It is rather more likely, in a 70+ year lease, that the tenant' obligation is to yield-up in good repair, regardless of its condition on letting.

 

 

Any long leasehold has a purchase value (the "assignment premium") which is the price at which the lessor (in this case the official receiver as successor to NMM Ltd) can effectively sell the remaining term of the lease to another person.

 

In this context, the receiver is the lessee, not the lessor.

 

Eventually, CRT might take action to enforce the repairing obligations, and they go bump again.

 

If the lease has 70 years to run, the lessee will be afforded, for many decades yet, the protection of the Leasehold Property (Repairs) Act; a Harris v Jervis approach, is a difficult remedy for a landlord even assuming that the lease contains the necessary provisions.

[Doorman]

Any more news about the marina?