Thoughts on buying an old hull...

[BarnOwl]

Hi guys,

 

Sooo, I've been looking for a live aboard for a while and having visited quite a few and pinning down what I'm after, I think I've found something that feels like it ticks a lot of boxes, but is pretty old. The hull (60ft) is a rather aged 1976 and the steel 6/6/4, which to me feels very thin given the 10/6/4 standard these days. Saying that, its had a recent survey which came back good, has been recently blacked (october) and was built by Les Allen a highly reputed by builder... so I'm a little stuck.

 

I guess being new to this, would be good to know if I'm biting off more than I can chew looking at a boat of this age and the problems I might encounter. Anyone with a hull of this age (and this thickness), would be good to know how they've stood up to the wear and tear over the years.

 

Also, its on for around 35K, which seems very high for a boat of that age... but quite equivalently for other Les Allens I've seen of that age?! So lots of conflicting thoughts!

 

This forum has been so so useful, so thank you! Hope to see you on the water soon!

[MtB]

Hmmmmm never mind the builder, I simply don't think a baot of that age can ever be worth £35k. You can get a boat 20 years younger by an equally good builder for similar money.

 

Just my opinion. I know Les Allen has a bit of a cult following....

 

MtB

[JDR]

If you search for Baroness Les Allen there is a cached version of an advert for the same boat for £26k ono.Also no mention of the engine on the Apolloduck advert but brokers list a Ford. The boat is for sale with a mooring which may explain the price.Can anybody identify the engine from the photo on the advert?

[Tuscan]

Looks a nice mooring , I agree with Mike £26k is a fairer price for the boat, so the there are two questions do you want to moor there, if you decide to move or sell on can you sell with mooring or do you have to write the premium for the mooring off.

[BarnOwl]

Yes Baroness is the boat in question. Sorry, didn't know what the etiquette was when it came to placing for sale boats... to enlighten a little, the engine is a Ford FL, similar age to the boat, with a parsons gearbox. Had it started over the weekend and it got going first time with no problems, good considering how cold it was.

 

In terms of the mooring, as nice as it is, I would be moving the boat on. It would be as part of private group of moorings, not like a CaRT spot, so not something I could sell on, so probably accounting for part of the premium. Added to it has had a relatively new fit out within, however totally agree with you guys and thinks its high. At a price like you suggest, given the good survey, it might be worth a go... it still ticks a lot of boxes in other areas. hmmmm, lots more thinking to do

 

Thanks for your thoughts guys!

[johnthebridge]

Yes Baroness is the boat in question. Sorry, didn't know what the etiquette was when it came to placing for sale boats... to enlighten a little, the engine is a Ford FL, similar age to the boat, with a parsons gearbox. Had it started over the weekend and it got going first time with no problems, good considering how cold it was.

 

 

Sorry, but if I've got the right advert for this boat, it surely doesn't look like any Les Allen I've ever seen.

[Lady Muck]

Yes Baroness is the boat in question. Sorry, didn't know what the etiquette was when it came to placing for sale boats... to enlighten a little, the engine is a Ford FL, similar age to the boat, with a parsons gearbox. Had it started over the weekend and it got going first time with no problems, good considering how cold it was.

 

In terms of the mooring, as nice as it is, I would be moving the boat on. It would be as part of private group of moorings, not like a CaRT spot, so not something I could sell on, so probably accounting for part of the premium. Added to it has had a relatively new fit out within, however totally agree with you guys and thinks its high. At a price like you suggest, given the good survey, it might be worth a go... it still ticks a lot of boxes in other areas. hmmmm, lots more thinking to do

 

Thanks for your thoughts guys!

 

Thing is, my friend bought a 65 foot five year old Liverpool boat for £30k last year. In the London area. It's a buyers market. Unless it was a historic boat I would always buy as young a hull as I could afford. Also much easier to sell on. I would always, always judge a boat on the hull and engine before anything else. The interior is the easiest and cheapest thing to alter on a boat. A kitchen unit and a tin of paint is cheap, but repairing old hulls and replacing engines - expensive. Can be thousands.

[RLWP]

 

Sorry, but if I've got the right advert for this boat, it surely doesn't look like any Les Allen I've ever seen.

 

How can you tell through the undergrowth?

 

 

 

 

Richard

[alan_fincher]

Sorry, but if I've got the right advert for this boat, it surely doesn't look like any Les Allen I've ever seen.

The Jim Shead listing thinks a boat with that index number is a Les aLlen one, but that it is 3 feet shorter, and called Axe.

 

AXE Built by L ALLEN & SONS - Length 17.37 metres (57 feet ) - Beam 2.08 metres (6 feet 10 inches ) - Draft 0.01 metres ( ) Metal hull, power of 62 BHP. Registered with British Waterways number 504354 as a Powered. Last registration recorded on 30-May-2011.

[mrsmelly]

Hi guys,

 

Sooo, I've been looking for a live aboard for a while and having visited quite a few and pinning down what I'm after, I think I've found something that feels like it ticks a lot of boxes, but is pretty old. The hull (60ft) is a rather aged 1976 and the steel 6/6/4, which to me feels very thin given the 10/6/4 standard these days. Saying that, its had a recent survey which came back good, has been recently blacked (october) and was built by Les Allen a highly reputed by builder... so I'm a little stuck.

 

I guess being new to this, would be good to know if I'm biting off more than I can chew looking at a boat of this age and the problems I might encounter. Anyone with a hull of this age (and this thickness), would be good to know how they've stood up to the wear and tear over the years.

 

Also, its on for around 35K, which seems very high for a boat of that age... but quite equivalently for other Les Allens I've seen of that age?! So lots of conflicting thoughts!

 

This forum has been so so useful, so thank you! Hope to see you on the water soon!

 

Hi

 

In short, its a hell of a lot for that boat BUT they are bloody good boats. I had a 1981 colecraft 6/6/4 which I sold to a friend about 6 years ago, he still has it and its still never been welded or gone much below its original 6/6/4. 10/6/4/ is just todays fad, my last boat was 15/6/5 a very well built boat my present is 12/8/4 very heavy but 6/6/4 are still around and in good nick.

 

Tim

[alan_fincher]

How can you tell through the undergrowth?

Better picture here.....

 

 

I agree with John the Bridge.

 

It doesn't really "speak" Les Allen to me.

 

Neither seems to have the looks or the quality.

[Grace and Favour]

The Jim Shead listing thinks a boat with that index number is a Les aLlen one, but that it is 3 feet shorter, and called Axe.

 

 

 

ooh - -has Axe been cloned - and cut and shut with 3' added?

Edited January 15, 2013 by Grace & Favour

[BarnOwl]

Sorry, but if I've got the right advert for this boat, it surely doesn't look like any Les Allen I've ever seen.

 

Wow, didn't know I was starting a bit of an identity crisis... I've seen documents for the boat, with its previously listed name 'Axe', as it appears on the Allen list. So at one point it was called Axe, whether it was 'the' Axe is obviously up for debate! Got to ask John, what is it about it, that makes you think its not an Allen?

 

Thanks also for everyones thoughts as well about the age and price as well! Much appreciated!

[tafelberg]

Looks lovely.

[Jackster]

Thanks for starting this topic, I have been wondering the same thing about older boats myself. There are a few I have seen, £35k 1995, £39k 1989, and £39k 2008 this buying a boat m'larky is a lot more complicated than it looks!

I think my question is should I be put off by the older hulls?

One of the other things I have noticed is that some adverts use photo's that are more than a few years old, one of the above is using photos from 2005, I managed to find a more recent one dec 2012 and the difference is quite marked.

 

[Lady Muck]

I think the thing is that some people think that boats are like houses, that you can treat them the same and that they will appreciate in value the same and they do them up nice inside and whack £20k on the price. I'm not necessarily talking about this boat, by the way, it's just a general observation and we see it a lot in the South East.

 

Like applying those property developer shows to boats. I mean, look at the ads on the Duck - quite a few old boats, some have been featured in design mags, on the surface they look good. But is the hull a nice shape? What's the line-out? Insulation? Many of them, once the vendor has removed all her fabulous hippy-sh*t, or designer kettles etc from the boat after you've bought, you're left with an amateur fit-out, often in tongue and groove, an overpriced floating shed. I mean, what might the electrics be like? Anyone can wave a paintbrush around, but did they wire up the inverter correctly? And for all that money? Boats are - chattels - not houses. In any case I can't imagine that anyone would lend a marine mortgage on an older, overplated boat with an optimistic price. Especially having gone through that process with a second hand owner fitted out boat, myself - it's very telling what they consider a worthwhile purchase or not. Is the boat overplated? Because an old, overplated hull is never going to last as long as a newer, unplated hull. And overplating is really hard to get right - do you know who did it and how good are they, what is their reputation? That would be my question.

 

There are two old Springers on the Duck right now, I've seen one of them, to quote my mother, 'it's nothing but a bloody hut', yet it's £39k and it's for sale with an estate agent - I wonder why? Is that because they want someone who is going to compare it to a flat in the same area and say, 'oooh that's a quarter of the price! Good deal!' I wonder....Never compare boats to flats. Once again, they are not properties to be developed. They. Are. Boats. So compare boats with boats. So beware, oh landlubbers.

 

So, yes, base what you want to pay on the hull and the engine -pay attention to the things that matter, such as who the builder is and perhaps expect to pay more for a proper pro fit out, than you do for something painted up that has an Ikea kitchen in one corner.

Edited January 16, 2013 by Lady Muck

[nebulae]

I think its better in the current market,to compare a narrow boat with a mobile home.A typical new mobile home,sited,could be £30,000.Value ofter 10 years perhaps £2,000.Depreciation £2,800 per annum plus running costs.My boat is an older boat with a reasonable owner fit out.My best guess is that my boat is worth,in the current market,£6,000 less than I paid 6 years ago.The boat has cost more to maintain and run,but has depreciated less than the caravan.This seems reasonable enough,compared to the depreciation of a car.I would guess that the depreciation on a new boat,particularly a top end one,would be much steeper.As has been said,a boat is a chattel not on investment.

[FidoDido]

Wow, didn't know I was starting a bit of an identity crisis... I've seen documents for the boat, with its previously listed name 'Axe', as it appears on the Allen list. So at one point it was called Axe, whether it was 'the' Axe is obviously up for debate! Got to ask John, what is it about it, that makes you think its not an Allen?

 

Thanks also for everyones thoughts as well about the age and price as well! Much appreciated!

 

Look at the front of the cratch - far too shallow. Not enough rubbing strakes. Doesnt have the Les Allen heavy engineering feel about it.

 

compare:

 

Not saying its not, and I'm certainly no expert, but it just doesnt look like any Les Allen boat I looked at (and I looked at 3 or 4). The lines are different. Of course, it may ahve had a major rebuilt and new bow, which would start to explain it.

 

As I say, I'm no expert. Are there any pictures of Axe on the Les Allen Register?

Edited January 20, 2013 by FidoDido

[FidoDido]

To be fair, I've just looked down the Allens Register, and there are several boats without the usual bow. (Landreth, Black Pig, and a few others). No pic of Axe.

 

Go with your gut feeling. If its the right boat, you know it, I think. I really wanted a Les Allen, but ended up with a Norton Canes. I'm very happy with it. Its the design and build of these boats which I really appreciated. My engine room, for instance, is bone dry, as its been designed well. The hatch over the engine room is designed not to drain inside. The back deck is designed not to allow rain water into the boat, etc. On survey, my 1990 boat had lost a maximum of 0.3mm from its original 10/6/4 spec.

 

Allens Register with photos

Edited January 20, 2013 by FidoDido

[ChimneyChain]

Our last boat was a les Allan and is on the allens register, This boat just doesn't look or feel right, it doesn't appear heavy enough IMO.

 

Darren

Edited January 21, 2013 by ChimneyChain

[PhilR]

Thanks for starting this topic, I have been wondering the same thing about older boats myself. There are a few I have seen, £35k 1995, £39k 1989, and £39k 2008 this buying a boat m'larky is a lot more complicated than it looks!

I think my question is should I be put off by the older hulls?

One of the other things I have noticed is that some adverts use photo's that are more than a few years old, one of the above is using photos from 2005, I managed to find a more recent one dec 2012 and the difference is quite marked.

 

 

I think most people who are new to boating think that boat value is related to age - in a similar way to how Glass's guide relates to car values. This is understandable, but not really applicable to boat values. I am sure many of us have seen 12 year old boats that need over-plating and 40+ year old boats that are really sound.

 

<slightly off topic alert> My wife has always wanted a Frobisher class boat. Most of those are looking rather tired and in need of TLC. But, a few days ago one passed our moorings looking as good as new (and I thought they ceased production in the late 1970's). If the owner of Markus is reading this I might be interested if she is for sale!

Edited January 20, 2013 by PhilR

[BarnOwl]

Thanks to everyone for you're replies and comments.

 

This has really helped clarify my thoughts...

 

So the general gist I'm getting is that the most important factor, before the age is the condition of the hull. Just because its an older boat, doesn't mean its going to be in a terrible state if its been looked after. And equally if a 10 year old boat has not come out of the marina water since it went in... its going to be pretty grim viewing when you take it out again.

 

However, by taking on a boat of a certain age, you are taking on a higher implicit risk that things might go tits up... not just with the hull but the engine, stern gland etc. Anything that might have seen quite a few years of wear and tear. So it comes down to knowing as much as you can and deciding what level of risk you're willing to take.

 

thank you everyone!

[Lady Muck]

And equally if a 10 year old boat has not come out of the marina water since it went in... its going to be pretty grim viewing when you take it out again.

Well it depends. There are old boats that have had no attention, reblacking or anodes for decades and have been hauled out and been fine (got one of those in our marina) and there are younger ones that are really pitted.

 

Only a hull condition survey would tell you the truth.

 

I still think it's a lot of money for a 1976 boat, especially when you consider you could buy a brand new lined sailaway 50 foot boat for £35k - the same money.

Edited January 25, 2013 by Lady Muck

[Grace and Favour]

Thanks to everyone for you're replies and comments.

 

This has really helped clarify my thoughts...

 

So the general gist I'm getting is that the most important factor, before the age is the condition of the hull. Just because its an older boat, doesn't mean its going to be in a terrible state if its been looked after. And equally if a 10 year old boat has not come out of the marina water since it went in... its going to be pretty grim viewing when you take it out again.

 

However, by taking on a boat of a certain age, you are taking on a higher implicit risk that things might go tits up... not just with the hull but the engine, stern gland etc. Anything that might have seen quite a few years of wear and tear. So it comes down to knowing as much as you can and deciding what level of risk you're willing to take.

 

thank you everyone!

 

You're quite right . . . so, this is where the use of a good boat surveyor prior to your purchase is an invaluable asset.

(apart from anything else, the surveyor's report will give you excellent ammunition for further negotiations with the seller!)

Edited January 25, 2013 by Grace & Favour

[Ratty's Retreat]

Are the photos posted earlier the same Duchess as the OP saw? Reg no is 504354 which seems high for a 1976 hull, or doesn't it work like that?

 

John.