My boat sounds broken!

[tree monkey]

Well, I've just spent a frustrating hour and a half in the freezing cold dark, trying to loosen the weed hatch clamp. I was nearly thwarted at the first stage as the deck hatch was frozen shut! It took a bit of a Riverdance on top of both hatches to break through the frost enough to lift them!

 

The weedhatch has had plenty of WD40 soaking in for 12 hours, but I couldn't manage so much as a mm turn. I tried a kettle of hot water over it. Still nothing. Completely solid. The angle the handle is at, typically, means that I can't get the tiller extension in as a lever after all (back of the hull is in the way on one side, and the vertical drainage channel pipe is in the way on the other side). I've tried different ways of tapping it, wiggling it, and using all my strength to turn it in either direction (and I'm not a small lass) but nothing. And now I've strained my back by trying to do it, so I'm rather regretting not giving up as soon as I realised it didn't want to shift.

 

So I've just sat down, put Winterwatch on the tele and poured myself a glass of port. Not sure what the next move is in the absence of a suitable item to use as a lever. Any ideas?

 

im sure someone will be around on the weekend to help, only if you need it of course

[BlueStringPudding]

It all depends where your oil is leaking from, mine was pretty much pouring out of the front of the gearbox where it joins onto the engine.

The input shaft seal is a 30mm rubber oil seal that seals the front input shaft where the gearbox attaches to the engine.

 

The chap from Primrose Engineering was really helpful with my oil leak and posted all these pics on his website http://www.primrose-engineering.co.uk/prm-delta/

I've also got a few pictures of my gearbox removal which I'll try to post later, they're on my phone at present.

If you have to take the gearbox out I guess its well worth getting the whole seal kit from ASAP supplies only about £20 inc P&P and has every single seal and O ring.

 

Only really worth it if you have to remove the gearbox, I guess if your noise turns out to be just prop fouling then no need to remove the gearbox, I had no choice as mine was spraying all the oil out in about 20mins.

 

I think mine was easier to get off as the engine is mid mounted too so it was a nice job of kneeling down beside the engine to work rather than being cramped in a Trad stern or cruiser.

 

Thanks, Toady. Much appreciated, I look forward to seeing those.

[casper ghost]

So I've just sat down, put Winterwatch on the tele and poured myself a glass of port. Not sure what the next move is ,Any ideas?

A bit of stilton..

Casp'

[BlueStringPudding]

im sure someone will be around on the weekend to help, only if you need it of course

 

thank you, monkey man. But you know me, I don't like admitting defeat...

 

A bit of stilton..

Casp'

 

Ooh, excellent idea. You've just reminded me that I've got a fabulous three milk cheese from Waitrose in the fridge.

Edited January 15, 2013 by BlueStringPudding

[Toad555]

I can't work out how or even if its possible to attach pictures.

[bizzard]

Well, I've just spent a frustrating hour and a half in the freezing cold dark, trying to loosen the weed hatch clamp. I was nearly thwarted at the first stage as the deck hatch was frozen shut! It took a bit of a Riverdance on top of both hatches to break through the frost enough to lift them!

 

The weedhatch has had plenty of WD40 soaking in for 12 hours, but I couldn't manage so much as a mm turn. I tried a kettle of hot water over it. Still nothing. Completely solid. The angle the handle is at, typically, means that I can't get the tiller extension in as a lever after all (back of the hull is in the way on one side, and the vertical drainage channel pipe is in the way on the other side). I've tried different ways of tapping it, wiggling it, and using all my strength to turn it in either direction (and I'm not a small lass) but nothing. And now I've strained my back by trying to do it, so I'm rather regretting not giving up as soon as I realised it didn't want to shift.

 

So I've just sat down, put Winterwatch on the tele and poured myself a glass of port. Not sure what the next move is in the absence of a suitable item to use as a lever. Any ideas?

Can you not get a windlass or maybe two on the T handle for extra leverage. Or perhaps a stout mooring stake lodged vertically against one of the T handles, pull hard on this and whack the other smartly with a club hammer. A stout gardening fork slid over the T handle between the two centre forks. The tiller arm could then be slid through the forks D handle as a Tommy-bar at a convenient height. If it is seriously rusted or corroded, heat might be needed to free it, but not a match, candle or aerosol blowlamp but something powerful and proper like a professional Propane torch or oxy-acetylene.

If rusted up where the screw passes through the clamp brackets threaded hole, rapid tapping in unison on either side of it with two hammers should break up rust and free it.

[BlueStringPudding]

You can either upload them into the gallery on this site, or put a link on here to a Flickr account or photo bucket account you might have.

[BlueStringPudding]

Right, good news, bad news and confusing news...

 

After much squirtage, hammerage and leverage, I finally loosened the weedhatch this morning. That's the good news! There were some different coloured bits of string and a small amount of shredded polythene around the prop but not a great deal of it. I cut it off with a knife and had a good feel around and there was nothing else on the shaft or the prop itself. The water was surprisingly clear, in fact, and I could see it quite clearly.

 

Anyway, I fastened the weedhatch back in place, put the engine in gear, and the bad news is that bloody knocking sound was still there and sounded no different at all, in forward or reverse.

I next decided to check the oil levels in the gearbox. Level was low (as expected, I have a slow oil leak and its been sat there a week) but not almost empty of oil, which it often is when the boat's been stationary for a while. Oil was clean and not emulsified, I topped the oil up till it was a bit further up the dipstick but still between the oil level markers. Started the engine again and as soon as I put it in gear, in forward and in reverse the flipping knocking noise was again still there. That's the bad news.

 

So I knocked it back out of gear and left the engine running in neutral while I went for a walk looking for a stick. The plan to find something suitable to do the listening test advised earlier in this thread. I was strolling about for less than ten minutes when I eventually found something suitable. I went back to the boat, armed with my new stick, and put the engine back in gear: no knocking sound. I pushed the revs up to Ludicrous Speed: still no knocking sound. I put it in reverse: still no knocking sound! Where's it gone!? this is the confusing bit of news!

 

I'm assuming the extra oil in the gearbox has something to do with this, combined with the running of the engine for ten minutes to warm things up a bit. But it's odd. Whenever there's been low oil in the last the symptoms have been very different: the prop simply stops turning for a second or two, then starts again, then stops again. You can hear, see and feel the reduction in power if that happens. It's why I always check the oil and top it up before every journey. But none of these symptoms happened in my cruise last weekend. If the problem is just low oil, why the change in symptoms? Why no reduction in power and why does the prop shaft not stop and start as before? And if low oil was the problem, how come it lost oil in the two or thre hours I was cruising, as its never done that before, it usually only leaks when stationary?

 

The reason I'm asking all these somewhat rhetorical questions is that I'm not ruling out that theres an intermittent fault with the gearbox that might by coincidence have gone quiet this afternoon, but may be back. So there could still be something more seriously wrong with the gearbox.

 

Has anyone else experienced anything like this? I really don't think there was enough cack around the prop to have caused the problem, especially as I was able to turn it by hand with no resistance. What's your thoughts, everyone?

 

Right, good news, bad news and confusing news...

 

After much squirtage, hammerage and leverage, I finally loosened the weedhatch this morning. That's the good news! There were some different coloured bits of string and a small amount of shredded polythene around the prop but not a great deal of it. I cut it off with a knife and had a good feel around and there was nothing else on the shaft or the prop itself. The water was surprisingly clear, in fact, and I could see it quite clearly.

 

Anyway, I fastened the weedhatch back in place, put the engine in gear, and the bad news is that bloody knocking sound was still there and sounded no different at all, in forward or reverse.

I next decided to check the oil levels in the gearbox. Level was low (as expected, I have a slow oil leak and its been sat there a week) but not almost empty of oil, which it often is when the boat's been stationary for a while. Oil was clean and not emulsified, I topped the oil up till it was a bit further up the dipstick but still between the oil level markers. Started the engine again and as soon as I put it in gear, in forward and in reverse the flipping knocking noise was again still there. That's the bad news.

 

So I knocked it back out of gear and left the engine running in neutral while I went for a walk looking for a stick. The plan to find something suitable to do the listening test advised earlier in this thread. I was strolling about for less than ten minutes when I eventually found something suitable. I went back to the boat, armed with my new stick, and put the engine back in gear: no knocking sound. I pushed the revs up to Ludicrous Speed: still no knocking sound. I put it in reverse: still no knocking sound! Where's it gone!? this is the confusing bit of news!

 

I'm assuming the extra oil in the gearbox has something to do with this, combined with the running of the engine for ten minutes to warm things up a bit. But it's odd. Whenever there's been low oil in the last the symptoms have been very different: the prop simply stops turning for a second or two, then starts again, then stops again. You can hear, see and feel the reduction in power if that happens. It's why I always check the oil and top it up before every journey. But none of these symptoms happened in my cruise last weekend. And importantly there has never been a knocking sound before. If the problem is just low oil, why the change in symptoms? Why no reduction in power and why does the prop shaft not stop and start as before?

 

The reason I'm asking all these somewhat rhetorical questions is that I'm not ruling out that theres an intermittent fault with the gearbox that might by coincidence have gone quiet this afternoon, but may be back. So there could still be something more seriously wrong with the gearbox.

 

Has anyone else experienced anything like this? I really don't think there was enough cack around the prop to have caused the problem, especially as I was able to turn it by hand with no resistance. What's your thoughts, everyone?

Edited January 19, 2013 by BlueStringPudding

[Tony Brooks]

Right, good news, bad news and confusing news...

 

After much squirtage, hammerage and leverage, I finally loosened the weedhatch this morning. That's the good news! There were some different coloured bits of string and a small amount of shredded polythene around the prop but not a great deal of it. I cut it off with a knife and had a good feel around and there was nothing else on the shaft or the prop itself. The water was surprisingly clear, in fact, and I could see it quite clearly.

 

Anyway, I fastened the weedhatch back in place, put the engine in gear, and the bad news is that bloody knocking sound was still there and sounded no different at all, in forward or reverse.

I next decided to check the oil levels in the gearbox. Level was low (as expected, I have a slow oil leak and its been sat there a week) but not almost empty of oil, which it often is when the boat's been stationary for a while. Oil was clean and not emulsified, I topped the oil up till it was a bit further up the dipstick but still between the oil level markers. Started the engine again and as soon as I put it in gear, in forward and in reverse the flipping knocking noise was again still there. That's the bad news.

 

So I knocked it back out of gear and left the engine running in neutral while I went for a walk looking for a stick. The plan to find something suitable to do the listening test advised earlier in this thread. I was strolling about for less than ten minutes when I eventually found something suitable. I went back to the boat, armed with my new stick, and put the engine back in gear: no knocking sound. I pushed the revs up to Ludicrous Speed: still no knocking sound. I put it in reverse: still no knocking sound! Where's it gone!? this is the confusing bit of news!

 

I'm assuming the extra oil in the gearbox has something to do with this, combined with the running of the engine for ten minutes to warm things up a bit. But it's odd. Whenever there's been low oil in the last the symptoms have been very different: the prop simply stops turning for a second or two, then starts again, then stops again. You can hear, see and feel the reduction in power if that happens. It's why I always check the oil and top it up before every journey. But none of these symptoms happened in my cruise last weekend. If the problem is just low oil, why the change in symptoms? Why no reduction in power and why does the prop shaft not stop and start as before? And if low oil was the problem, how come it lost oil in the two or thre hours I was cruising, as its never done that before, it usually only leaks when stationary?

 

The reason I'm asking all these somewhat rhetorical questions is that I'm not ruling out that theres an intermittent fault with the gearbox that might by coincidence have gone quiet this afternoon, but may be back. So there could still be something more seriously wrong with the gearbox.

 

Has anyone else experienced anything like this? I really don't think there was enough cack around the prop to have caused the problem, especially as I was able to turn it by hand with no resistance. What's your thoughts, everyone?

 

 

 

My suspicion is that this could be a mount problem or if the drive plate has genuine rubber part a drive plate problem.

 

Indubitably the engine was vibrating while you found your stick and rubber damps vibration/movement by converting to to heat so I suspect something rubber has warmed up enough to expand and stop the noise. You will find out tomorrow morning if the noise cames back when cold. It could be something like a crack in an engine foot but I doubt 10 minutes of running would have warmed that up enough to expand enough to stop the noise.

 

I think that you said you had checked ALL the nuts on the engine mounts including those that secure it to the bed, if not then check them for tightness. Then get a mooring stake over an engine bed and under an engine foot so you can lever the engine upwards. All mounts should allow a similar upwards movement, if some move more then you have probably (not certainly) found faulty mounts - especially if they are oozing black slime.

[PaulJ]

 

 

 

 

 

I'm assuming the extra oil in the gearbox has something to do with this, combined with the running of the engine for ten minutes to warm things up a bit. But it's odd. Whenever there's been low oil in the last the symptoms have been very different: the prop simply stops turning for a second or two, then starts again, then stops again. You can hear, see and feel the reduction in power if that happens. It's why I always check the oil and top it up before every journey. But none of these symptoms happened in my cruise last weekend. If the problem is just low oil, why the change in symptoms? Why no reduction in power and why does the prop shaft not stop and start as before? And if low oil was the problem, how come it lost oil in the two or thre hours I was cruising, as its never done that before, it usually only leaks when stationary?

 

 

 

This may (or may not being optimistic :-) ) point to a bearing being on its way out and /or the oil seal leaking. If it were I would hazard a guess as to being the one on the output shaft. If the gearbox has lost alot of oil in a couple of hours running then it should be fairly obvious where it is leaking from.If box is already too oily to tell, give it a wipe over and next time you run it should show it.

If you have a reduction box on the back of the gearbox then check the oil level in that too-it might be higher.

Please appreciate this is all a bit of a wild guess without seeing it and I am more than happy to be a million miles out...

Edited January 19, 2013 by PaulJ

[BlueStringPudding]

My suspicion is that this could be a mount problem or if the drive plate has genuine rubber part a drive plate problem.

 

Indubitably the engine was vibrating while you found your stick and rubber damps vibration/movement by converting to to heat so I suspect something rubber has warmed up enough to expand and stop the noise. You will find out tomorrow morning if the noise cames back when cold. It could be something like a crack in an engine foot but I doubt 10 minutes of running would have warmed that up enough to expand enough to stop the noise.

 

I think that you said you had checked ALL the nuts on the engine mounts including those that secure it to the bed, if not then check them for tightness. Then get a mooring stake over an engine bed and under an engine foot so you can lever the engine upwards. All mounts should allow a similar upwards movement, if some move more then you have probably (not certainly) found faulty mounts - especially if they are oozing black slime.

 

Thanks, Tony. The problem started two or three hours into a cruise though, and it came suddenly as my first post describes, so surely everything would have been as warm as it could be? I'll do what you've suggested with the engine mounts though, just in case.

[BlueStringPudding]

I have to say I'm genuinely feeling rather miserable about all this. I don't know if I'm happier that the knocking has stopped, or not, because it just makes diagnosing the problem even harder. And if I don't work out what's doing it and get it fixed, you can almost guarantee the damn thing will completely break at just the wrong time,

 

I've just spent an hour bailing out the gruesome rainwater and oil combo under the engine so there'd be a fighting chance of working out which bit of the gearbox is now leaking. It definitely used to only be the drain plug, because when I put a nice new white oil pad under the engine and gearbox a few weeks ago after a day or two, a few drops of oil appeared on it immediately below the drainplug only. Unfortunately shortly after that we had all that heavy rain for weeks and the poor old pad got sunk by a load of rainwater collecting under there! I've got some more pads at work so will pop another under the gearbox next week to hopeful get an idea if a new leak has sprung.

 

The only thing for it now is to go and buy some beer, I suppose.

Edited January 19, 2013 by BlueStringPudding

[Grace and Favour]

I have to say I'm genuinely feeling rather miserable about all this. I don't know if I'm happier that the knocking has stopped, or not, because it just makes diagnosing the problem even harder. And if I don't work out what's doing it and get it fixed, you can almost guarantee the damn thing will completely break at just the wrong time,

 

I've just spent an hour bailing out the gruesome rainwater and oil combo under the engine so there'd be a fighting chance of working out which bit of the gearbox is now leaking. It definitely used to only be the drain plug, because when I put a nice new white oil pad under the engine and gearbox a few weeks ago after a day or two, a few drops of oil appeared on it immediately below the drainplug only. Unfortunately shortly after that we had all that heavy rain for weeks and the poor old pad got sunk by a load of rainwater collecting under there! I've got some more pads at work so will pop another under the gearbox next week to hopeful get an idea if a new leak has sprung.

 

The only thing for it now is to go and buy some beer, I suppose.

 

I can't add to the advice regarding knocking noises previously offered by those more expert than me

 

All I would add is that if it's beer tonight - - make sure it's the (brand of) beer that you prefer most

[BlueStringPudding]

I can't add to the advice regarding knocking noises previously offered by those more expert than me

 

All I would add is that if it's beer tonight - - make sure it's the (brand of) beer that you prefer most

 

[MtB]

With intermittent problems like this, the easiest fix is generally to change the boat....

 

Hope that helps

 

MTB

[BlueStringPudding]

Mike!

 

Mike!

[Paul C]

With intermittent problems like this, the easiest fix is generally to change the boat....

 

Hope that helps

 

MTB

 

I bet if you changed just the gearbox (instead of the whole boat) the problem would never recur.

[MtB]

I bet if you changed just the gearbox (instead of the whole boat) the problem would never recur.

 

Not if its the drive plate

 

MtB

[BlueStringPudding]

So I should change the whole boat, including the drive plate, but keep the gearbox? Hmmm...

[MtB]

Best to change the whole bote, just in case it's the problem in the gas locker.

 

MtB

[Paul C]

Not if its the drive plate

 

MtB

 

Have a look at the drive plate while the gearbox is out? If its bust, replace that. If its not, replace the gearbox.

[jenlyn]

Bsp, check the exhaust and fittings.

[BlueStringPudding]

Bsp, check the exhaust and fittings.

 

That's a new suggestion. What am I checking it for?

 

Best to change the whole bote, just in case it's the problem in the gas locker.

 

MtB

 

I've got quite good hearing, mike, but even I couldn't pick up on a knocking sound 65ft away in the gas locker while I'm standing over the engine.

[bizzard]

A Black prince boat will probably have twin propshaft UJ's of some sort, Aquadrive most likely, if so its worth checking all its securing bolts, its thrust block mounting rubbers for wear and all its constant velocity joint Allen set screws, these can come loose as they do on cars and make a horrid knocking noise. Although the noise apparently goes away once warm still well worth checking.

 

Or it might just be the newness wearing off so could cure itself going along.

[jenlyn]

That's a new suggestion. What am I checking it for?

 

 

 

I've got quite good hearing, mike, but even I couldn't pick up on a knocking sound 65ft away in the gas locker while I'm standing over the engine.

Could be a broken weld where the exhaust pipe exits through the hull. The engine will be a bit lumpy on cold start, hence knocking. Could have snapped as you were going along, but is catching on the break.