Meeting of boaters at MK on 28 November

[novascotianboy]

Hi all,

 

In case anyone's interested, notes from the meeting on 28 November in Milton Keynes between a group of boaters, John Dodwell, Sally Ash, Damien Kemp, Denise Yelland, and others are now online. I'm sorry that these have taken so long to be made available - but here they are.

 

I'd like to say thanks to those who travelled to the meeting and who helped organise it - particularly Jenlyn - and thanks to those from the Trust who agreed to meet with us and made space available.

 

Link to the notes is below.

 

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B4iIQ_cU71HfbFRsYmNVMmpRbXc

[Joshua]

Hi all,

 

In case anyone's interested, notes from the meeting on 28 November in Milton Keynes between a group of boaters, John Dodwell, Sally Ash, Damien Kemp, Denise Yelland, and others are now online. I'm sorry that these have taken so long to be made available - but here they are.

 

I'd like to say thanks to those who travelled to the meeting and who helped organise it - particularly Jenlyn - and thanks to those from the Trust who agreed to meet with us and made space available.

 

Link to the notes is below.

 

https://docs.google....bFRsYmNVMmpRbXc

 

I have read the Q&A's prepared by S Ash.

 

Largely, it seems to me, Ash has merely chosen and paraphrased those 'questions' that allow her to re-state CaRT's September briefing paper rather than enlighten or add anything new.

 

On the key issue of VM's there is not a single word of explanation as to what changes, where and how many, CaRT are actually going to make to these.

 

Instead of answering the crucial and often asked question 'What changes to the VM limits are CaRT going to make and why?' Ash has chosen;

 

 

Why do we need 'better compliance?

 

Her answer to this is bizarre;

 

(1) Because leisure boaters (who are in the majority) and hire boat operators are increasingly reporting congestion at visitor moorings (VMs), meaning that there's less likelihood of their being able to tie up to visit local places.

 

Regardless of who is overstaying at visitor moorings, we need to increase our monitoring and enforcement of stay times at VMs.

 

(2) Leisure boaters make less use of the waterways than continuous cruisers and pay significant mooring fees. They find this unfair.

 

As to (1) this may well be true but what has it got to do with the act of and policing of, CCing? Surely if boaters are complaining that they can rarely find a VM to moor on then clearly there are not enough of them.

 

I don't doubt it, and in my view its nothing to do with the position of the mooring to local amenities, its just the fact that its often hard to moor on unprepared canal bank due to depth of water, huge banks of reeds and bushes to fight your way through, rocks and all manner of other obstacles, including no nice mooring rings to easily tie up on. Of course, nicely prepared VM's are going to be in demand, especially by leisure/holiday boaters, many of whom I imagine believe VM's are the ONLY places to moor, I don't blame them. If it were not for the fact that CCers HAVE to moor on unprepared bank and are therefore better practiced at it (I carry an arsenal of gardening tools including a machete and a long plank), there would probably be a lot of complaints about the lack of VM's from CCers as well.

 

And why the emphasis on leisure boaters being (… in the majority) am I supposed to read 'preferential treatment' if not, what?

 

 

As to (2), This statement is astonishing, it acknowledges the immature and irrational envy and resentment felt by some boaters, upset because they think someone else is getting a better deal than them.

 

By offering it here as an explanation as to why CaRT are taking action against CCers, Ash gives official credence to an emotion that is totally without merit and should play no part in the serious matter of managing the waterways.

 

As a CCer who comfortably complies with any and all definitions of the term, I find this very disappointing and alarming.

 

Edited for spelling

Edited December 7, 2012 by Joshua

[John V]

Assuming that this is an accurate representation of Ms Ash's views (I am not casting doubts on Joshua just stating that is not from personal observation) It seems to show a very biased view, without much in the way of a logical argument to support them.

 

I find it disturbing to see this in a person who is in a position of power and responsibility.

 

My views might be old fashioned but I expect anyone with responsibilities, when confronted with a problem, real or not, to find answers that are simple, logical, and supported by a reasoned argument.

 

If there is a problem with overstayers on visitor moorings either real or perceived, then it should be dealt with in the simplest and cheapest way possible. Minor problems should result in minor solutions.

 

In any society there will be some that will "take the piss" and if this is resulting in a problem either real or perceived then it needs to be addressed. I expect the people who do address it to act openly and without bias, if they cannot do so then IMO they are unfit to be in that position and should be opposed in any way possible, by all reasonable people.

 

 

edited for accuracy

Edited December 7, 2012 by John V

[paddy r]

Leisure boaters make less use of the waterways than continuous cruisers and pay significant mooring fees. They find this unfair.

 

 

And after all is said and done.this is what the cc perceived problem is

[alan_fincher]

Whilst it is quite reasonable to be concerned about some of the pre-prepared answers to questions, I think it is fair to say that these didn't in the end play a huge part in the discussions that actually took place at the meeting.

 

I agree that the answers to some of those questions look highly suspect, and for that reason I didn't hold out the highest expectations of the meeting.

 

All I can say is that at the meeting itself Sally Ash managed to seem much more prepared to engage with the boaters present, and to listen to what they actually had to say. Several had warned us beforehand that they didn't see this as her usual style, but I have to say that on the day I couldn't fault her. They were very prepared to admit they haven't got things right in the past, and seemed genuinely enthusiastic to try and do better.

 

Trust me, we gave as good as we got when some of the more contentious stuff was discussed, such as the differing impacts on an area, and the residents and businesses in it, when comparing (say) the hire boat trade, and the needs of private boaters. People like John ("Cotswoldman") made very strong points about live-aboard boaters doing as much (or more) for local economies and canal-side businesses as those who sometimes seem to get listened to more.

 

I don't think I'm someone who is easily fooled by someone putting on an act, or trying to just use the words that they think I want to hear, and I am prepared to take how Sally and her colleagues engaged us in the meeting itself at face value.

 

Give this dialogue a chance - this independent initiative in my view is already making more progress in trying to change attitudes than your elected representatives appear to be.

[Tuscan]

Leisure boaters make less use of the waterways than continuous cruisers and pay significant mooring fees. They find this unfair.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think that is potentially the problem , there would appear to have been a substantial increase in CC licences in recent years mirrored by a large number of boaters that are unable or unwilling to move even 10 kms in a year. So in these and many other cases Leisure boaters do in fact make more use of the waterways.

 

Hat, coat......

[Joshua]

Whilst it is quite reasonable to be concerned about some of the pre-prepared answers to questions, I think it is fair to say that these didn't in the end play a huge part in the discussions that actually took place at the meeting.

 

I agree that the answers to some of those questions look highly suspect, and for that reason I didn't hold out the highest expectations of the meeting.

 

All I can say is that at the meeting itself Sally Ash managed to seem much more prepared to engage with the boaters present, and to listen to what they actually had to say. Several had warned us beforehand that they didn't see this as her usual style, but I have to say that on the day I couldn't fault her. They were very prepared to admit they haven't got things right in the past, and seemed genuinely enthusiastic to try and do better.

 

Trust me, we gave as good as we got when some of the more contentious stuff was discussed, such as the differing impacts on an area, and the residents and businesses in it, when comparing (say) the hire boat trade, and the needs of private boaters. People like John ("Cotswoldman") made very strong points about live-aboard boaters doing as much (or more) for local economies and canal-side businesses as those who sometimes seem to get listened to more.

 

I don't think I'm someone who is easily fooled by someone putting on an act, or trying to just use the words that they think I want to hear, and I am prepared to take how Sally and her colleagues engaged us in the meeting itself at face value.

 

Give this dialogue a chance - this independent initiative in my view is already making more progress in trying to change attitudes than your elected representatives appear to be.

 

I very much wanted to attend the meeting and was disappointed that I could not due to family commitments. I am in the debt of those who could and did attend and who have my thanks.

 

I am pleased to hear what you say Alan but given that Ash's written comments, must (should) have been made in a measured and deliberate way, I am struggling to feel entirely confident.

 

I will, however, keep an open mind.

Edited December 7, 2012 by Joshua

[paddy r]

Snip......

 

Give this dialogue a chance - this independent initiative in my view is already making more progress in trying to change attitudes than your elected representatives appear to be.

You all have my full support, Good luck.

 

 

 

But if CRT cannot inforce the rules thay have, why waste more money changing things around?why not spend that money on more enforcement officers and make a level playing field for all CC,Share boater,who ever.

[Tonka]

Are there any boaters in Milton Keynes. I thought they were all Continous Moorers

[cotswoldsman]

Are there any boaters in Milton Keynes. I thought they were all Continous Moorers

 

That goes down as the most unhelpful post of the day so far. The problem is there are some of us that are trying to find a solution to the problems and there are those that have nothing better to do than post what they think are smart replies.

 

Edited to say anyone on a boat is a boater or do you just wish to continue with the divide and conquer of them and us?

Edited December 7, 2012 by cotswoldsman

[alan_fincher]

Are there any boaters in Milton Keynes. I thought they were all Continous Moorers

Yes,

 

Let's keep up the stereotypes.

 

I keep this boat in Milton Keynes, for a start......

 

 

It has travelled well over 1,000 miles already this year.

 

I know you are trying to be funny, but it really doesn't help.

[jenlyn]

The question and answers were formed before the meeting. They were formed as a guide and to be honest, were not that relevant once brought up. They did not form the basis of the meeting.

The VM's were dealt with quite quickly, by CART stating they realised after speaking with us that they needed more input. The notes state that clearly, read them again.

The statement regarding hire company's and leisure boaters reporting VM's being full seem's to form CART's basis on changing them.

To be honest, I was shocked to realise that some boaters felt so unhappy with their lot. If you buy a boat and stick it in a marina, that's YOUR choice. End of story, cut the cloth to your means.

This meeting was well talked up on here, plenty of time for input. Not much came. Yet some snide remarks are coming through already.

The opportunity is now availiable to have a say in the future, that was the result of the meeting.

Use it, put up or ..............

[Tuscan]

Yes,

 

Let's keep up the stereotypes.

 

I keep this boat in Milton Keynes, for a start......

 

 

It has travelled well over 1,000 miles already this year.

 

I know you are trying to be funny, but it really doesn't help.

 

 

Any excuse for yet another picture !! I agree re stereo types however we came through Milton Keynes this year for the first time in 3 and we were surprised at two things how many boats there were moored on the towpath both on the way down and what appeared to be at the same spot two weeks later and the noticeable increase of wide beam boats. I have no idea what license the boats had or care its just an observation that both myself and the boat we were travelling with independently made.

 

The question and answers were formed before the meeting. They were formed as a guide and to be honest, were not that relevant once brought up. They did not form the basis of the meeting.

The VM's were dealt with quite quickly, by CART stating they realised after speaking with us that they needed more input. The notes state that clearly, read them again.

The statement regarding hire company's and leisure boaters reporting VM's being full seem's to form CART's basis on changing them.

To be honest, I was shocked to realise that some boaters felt so unhappy with their lot. If you buy a boat and stick it in a marina, that's YOUR choice. End of story, cut the cloth to your means.

This meeting was well talked up on here, plenty of time for input. Not much came. Yet some snide remarks are coming through already.

The opportunity is now availiable to have a say in the future, that was the result of the meeting.

Use it, put up or ..............

 

 

 

 

The meeting was good opportunity for CRT to speak to a specific group of CC boaters , it might be an idea to co opt a couple of marina moorers into the group for balance then CRT would have a good sample group with no wider associations to discuss policy ideas. Focus groups I think is the term. Happy to be involved if needed.

[jenlyn]

Any excuse for yet another picture !! I agree re stereo types however we came through Milton Keynes this year for the first time in 3 and we were surprised at two things how many boats there were moored on the towpath both on the way down and what appeared to be at the same spot two weeks later and the noticeable increase of wide beam boats. I have no idea what license the boats had or care its just an observation that both myself and the boat we were travelling with independently made.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The meeting was good opportunity for CRT to speak to a specific group of CC boaters , it might be an idea to co opt a couple of marina moorers into the group for balance then CRT would have a good sample group with no wider associations to discuss policy ideas. Focus groups I think is the term. Happy to be involved if needed.

Good, we are looking to arrange something in the new year. All boaters are welcome.

By the way, the widebeam parked behind you at cosgrove festival this year was me. I saw you snarling at me ;-)

Fancy having satellite on a stunning pair of boats! Heh heh

[Tuscan]

Good, we are looking to arrange something in the new year. All boaters are welcome.

By the way, the widebeam parked behind you at cosgrove festival this year was me. I saw you snarling at me ;-)

Fancy having satellite on a stunning pair of boats! Heh heh

 

 

I followed that pair , modern motor and butty , this year nice looking, but wasn't at festival. wouldn't have been me snarling as I studiously avoid eye contact with any wide beam owners.

[John V]

I hope you also doff your cap and tug your forelock at the same time as you lower your eyes......it's good to know your place in a heirarchy

[jenlyn]

I followed that pair , modern motor and butty , this year nice looking, but wasn't at festival. wouldn't have been me snarling as I studiously avoid eye contact with any wide beam owners.

Narrowboat, widebeam, plastic, what do we all have in common? Boating?

[Tuscan]

I hope you also doff your cap and tug your forelock at the same time as you lower your eyes......it's good to know your place in a heirarchy

 

 

We always lower the flag in salute as we go past

[jelunga]

Whilst it is quite reasonable to be concerned about some of the pre-prepared answers to questions, I think it is fair to say that these didn't in the end play a huge part in the discussions that actually took place at the meeting.

 

I agree that the answers to some of those questions look highly suspect, and for that reason I didn't hold out the highest expectations of the meeting.

 

All I can say is that at the meeting itself Sally Ash managed to seem much more prepared to engage with the boaters present, and to listen to what they actually had to say. Several had warned us beforehand that they didn't see this as her usual style, but I have to say that on the day I couldn't fault her. They were very prepared to admit they haven't got things right in the past, and seemed genuinely enthusiastic to try and do better.

 

Trust me, we gave as good as we got when some of the more contentious stuff was discussed, such as the differing impacts on an area, and the residents and businesses in it, when comparing (say) the hire boat trade, and the needs of private boaters. People like John ("Cotswoldman") made very strong points about live-aboard boaters doing as much (or more) for local economies and canal-side businesses as those who sometimes seem to get listened to more.

 

I don't think I'm someone who is easily fooled by someone putting on an act, or trying to just use the words that they think I want to hear, and I am prepared to take how Sally and her colleagues engaged us in the meeting itself at face value.

 

Give this dialogue a chance - this independent initiative in my view is already making more progress in trying to change attitudes than your elected representatives appear to be.

 

Like

[jelunga]

Whilst it is quite reasonable to be concerned about some of the pre-prepared answers to questions, I think it is fair to say that these didn't in the end play a huge part in the discussions that actually took place at the meeting.

 

I agree that the answers to some of those questions look highly suspect, and for that reason I didn't hold out the highest expectations of the meeting.

 

All I can say is that at the meeting itself Sally Ash managed to seem much more prepared to engage with the boaters present, and to listen to what they actually had to say. Several had warned us beforehand that they didn't see this as her usual style, but I have to say that on the day I couldn't fault her. They were very prepared to admit they haven't got things right in the past, and seemed genuinely enthusiastic to try and do better.

 

Trust me, we gave as good as we got when some of the more contentious stuff was discussed, such as the differing impacts on an area, and the residents and businesses in it, when comparing (say) the hire boat trade, and the needs of private boaters. People like John ("Cotswoldman") made very strong points about live-aboard boaters doing as much (or more) for local economies and canal-side businesses as those who sometimes seem to get listened to more.

 

I don't think I'm someone who is easily fooled by someone putting on an act, or trying to just use the words that they think I want to hear, and I am prepared to take how Sally and her colleagues engaged us in the meeting itself at face value.

 

Give this dialogue a chance - this independent initiative in my view is already making more progress in trying to change attitudes than your elected representatives appear to be.

 

Like