Lock Poetry

[LoneWolf]

You needn't feel sorry for me or insult my views. This wasn't free but used a few thousand of carts precious money which could have been spent on maintenance . There is still Defra tape on the towpath before the next lock down.

 

How have I insulted your views? Why do you think I'm referring to you anyway? I've just reread your OP and only someone who didn't know what "mealy mouthed" meant would describe it as such.

[chazzy]

Like or dislike the poem, personal I don't see it as artistic, looks to be just like a notice on the balance beams

[PiRSqwared]

I'm sure the quoted costs are simply for the poetry, and don't include any of the cost of a gate replacement that would have happened without it.

 

Thanks.

 

 

Clearly I need to get my Ladybird book of poetry writing out!

 

Personally, I wouldn't mind the odd bit of verse to contemplate while single handing up a lock flight.

 

One of the first threads about this to appear here was titled something like "Poetry to desecrate lock beams". I find this title a bit troubling. Since when was lock furniture consecrated?

[alan_fincher]

from what i recall (from reading the internet, so it may not be true) it was a matched funding project where ACE & CaRT stumped up £25k each. I think there are 4 locations.

There will have been a budget provided and (there will be) a post project review of how the spending matched the budget so you could always do an FOI request

 

£25k is pretty small in the grand scheme of CaRT spending imo

I have a feeling those are about the numbers I saw, but as I can no longer find them, I can't prove or disprove it.

 

I agree it is not a huge sum.

 

What is curious is that a lot of people do seem to have got hold of the idea that no CRT money is involved, so any challenge about whether it is money well spent of not is irrelevant.

 

It seems CRT money is involved, albeit not heaps of it.

 

Take a step back Alan, it could be attracting people who don't even know that a canal or locks exist at that location. This is public art, there are people (like me) who go and see public art regardless of where it is and whether i usually visit the location.

 

Even if it attracted no one who wouldn't otherwise be there it would still have value. Public art is about far more than attracting people to a location it's about engaging the emotions or thoughts of those who experience it.

 

Do you enjoy or are interested in public art in other locations?

Yes I do like to see it, even in other canal locations, and there is some good stuff about.

 

Of course with art, you will always have the age old argument about what does, and does not qualify as being art, and then after that if it is art, is it "good" art.

 

A lot of people clearly like this initiative, so perhaps it is no bad thing.

 

But there will undoubtedly be a lot who do not - that doesn't make them Philistines, or mean they cannot appreciate other public works of art.

[LoneWolf]

I have a feeling those are about the numbers I saw, but as I can no longer find them, I can't prove or disprove it.

 

I agree it is not a huge sum.

 

What is curious is that a lot of people do seem to have got hold of the idea that no CRT money is involved, so any challenge about whether it is money well spent of not is irrelevant.

 

It seems CRT money is involved, albeit not heaps of it.

 

Also, some of CaRT's contribution could be non-cash ie they may have costed up the time of the people they already employ devoting time to the project. Whilst it could be argued that these people could be doing something more useful, generally the 'real' cost is less than the cost on paper

 

Yes I do like to see it, even in other canal locations, and there is some good stuff about.

 

Of course with art, you will always have the age old argument about what does, and does not qualify as being art, and then after that if it is art, is it "good" art.

 

A lot of people clearly like this initiative, so perhaps it is no bad thing.

 

But there will undoubtedly be a lot who do not - that doesn't make them Philistines, or mean they cannot appreciate other public works of art.

 

ok, I asked because i wasn't sure whether we were having a public-art discussion or a 'this piece of public art' one. ie I wasn't sure if you were interested in art at all. I guess it's just not your type of thing. I'd be interested in hearing if your view changes on seeing it.

Just for the record i wasnt referring to you as mealy mouthed. If i thought you were coming to the discussion with a closed mind then i wouldn't have bothered to reply You seem pretty open minded to me.

 

Yes! these questions are one of the delights of art.

 

Not sure where your last sentence comes from - i dont think i suggested that at all.

 

Maybe i need to use more

<sigh>

[alan_fincher]

Not sure where your last sentence comes from - i dont think i suggested that at all.

Sorry, it comes from someone else having suggested those not appreciating it are Philistines, not anything you said.

 

I will admit this idea seems to have caught more peoples imaginations than I might have immediately assumed it was going to - a lot of people really do seem to like the idea.

 

It may also bring "enjoyment" to people that one might not immediately have expected it to as well. I mean this is classic rant material for NarrowBoatWorld, and I'm sure they will get many column inches out of this, and delight many of their loyal followers.

 

ok, I asked because i wasn't sure whether we were having a public-art discussion or a 'this piece of public art' one. ie I wasn't sure if you were interested in art at all.

I love the roses and castles on Sickle, for example.

 

But equally I have to accept that a lot of people think that even the very best executed roses and castles, done by the most renowned names, are simply not art.

 

What constitutes art differs hugely from person to poerson, doesn't it, and I accept that.

Edited November 30, 2012 by alan_fincher

[Mac of Cygnet]

 

 

But equally I have to accept that a lot of people think that even the very best executed roses and castles, done by

the most renowned names, are simply not art.

 

What constitutes art differs hugely from person to poerson, doesn't it, and I accept that.

 

 

I am one of those people. To me, Roses and Castles are kitsch, albeit traditional, even historic kitsch.

 

What constitutes art is a constant - it should enhance ones perception or understanding of the world. Do roses and castles do that?

 

Some people think I'm an artist because I painted my front door:

 

 

 

But I know I'm not. It isn't art - I just did it because I enjoyed it and brighten up the place.

 

I quite liked the poem. It isn't desecrating anything. It might just qualify as art.

[Guest]

My favourite bit of art is this -

 

It's made from a redundant molten steel 'ladle' from the local steel works and sits on a local roundabout on the A66 - I think the way it hovers is just brilliant -

 

[LoneWolf]

Sorry, it comes from someone else having suggested those not appreciating it are Philistines, not anything you said.

 

I will admit this idea seems to have caught more peoples imaginations than I might have immediately assumed it was going to - a lot of people really do seem to like the idea.

 

It may also bring "enjoyment" to people that one might not immediately have expected it to as well. I mean this is classic rant material for NarrowBoatWorld, and I'm sure they will get many column inches out of this, and delight many of their loyal followers.

 

 

I love the roses and castles on Sickle, for example.

 

But equally I have to accept that a lot of people think that even the very best executed roses and castles, done by the most renowned names, are simply not art.

 

What constitutes art differs hugely from person to poerson, doesn't it, and I accept that.

 

Phew, i thought i was coming across all school-marmish for a bit there.

 

I think it's a great idea - maybe i'll make it a goal to visit them all. that would give some purpose to my random meanderings.

 

The 'poetry on the underground' thing was a great success too I believe, although i don't know what their 'success criteria' was.

 

I think most, if not all, people could get a lot out of poetry. Trouble is not a lot of people try which i put down to the way it (used to be) taught in schools - all romantics poncing on about unexpected flowers & the likes of Keats banging on about death metaphors

 

Ah, now I'm no fan of Roses & Castles but i would agree it is art.

 

Having said that, if i actually looked at all the Roses & Castles stuff i came across I suspect i would pick up a flavour of the different styles and nuances and come to like some more than others and thus acquire an appreciation of it.

 

Perhaps this is how it works. I find i have to read a lot of poems before i come across one i really like

 

Anyway, i'm rambling - i'll get back to my cleaning now

[Proper Job]

Thrupp has it's own bit of poetry which was installed by BW(?)

 

There are four plaques in a row by the lift bridge

 

 

It reads:

HERON

Dead-centre down the still canal

A blue ghost flies with a mussel shell

Clamped lightly in its bill

 

Folding the daybreak's river mist

With the creaking steps of its flight

Past the diamonds and daisies on the cratch

 

Of the narrowboat

Clove-hitched to a cast-iron bollard

Past the dredger's hopper, the humpbacked bridge

 

Then drops the empty shell

Still hinged by a thread

Among flints and ashkeys on the tow-path"

 

 

I like it very much

[churchward]

Unfortunately if what was presented at CRT SE User Group meeting is correct, that statement simply isn't true.

 

I know that impression was given early on but information given there indicated that whilst some of it is Arts Council money, other is coming directly from CRT. (Unfortunately the numbers do not seem to be in the on-line presentations, so without digging more, I can't remember the split, but the CRT contribution was more than just a token one, certainly.)

 

Part of the justification given is that it will draw in non-boating punters, who may then be potential "Friends of CRT", and who might start to pay something in.

 

Whatever you think of the poetry, that does seem to me to be stretching hopes more than a bit.

 

I'm afraid I simply can't see too many families saying "I wasn't going to bother to go and look at the locks at Hillmorton today, but I hear there are now a couple of lines of poetry carved into now the locks - that's got to make it worth a trip, now, surely!".

I presently think my statement is true. The published material I have seen shows a partnership with the Arts Council. The CRT website refers to it.

 

Not everyone thinks like you so it is possible that it will attract people to the waterways or perhaps more probably make a visit more pleasurable once there. in any case art does not need a purpose it is for its own sake.

[alan_fincher]

I presently think my statement is true. The published material I have seen shows a partnership with the Arts Council. The CRT website refers to it.

I agree with you that it is partnership with the Arts Council, and if you look at post 16, I actually acklnowledged this.

 

However just using the term "partnership" doesn't say how much funding is coming from each partner, and certainly to me doesn't automatically mean it is all from one partner, and not the other.

 

I am sure I saw numbers that showed it to be roughly half and half between CRT and the Arts Council, just I can't find them again now. So I don't think your statement below is true.

 

Also since the money for it didn't come from any CRT funding it hasn't diverted money that could be spent elsewhere. I see very little to be concerned about.

 

Happy to see the evidence one way of the other though, (preferably without anybody going to the expense of an FOI request!)

 

EDITED TO ADD:

 

I don't claim this to be the total answer speciically about "Lock Lines", but may give a clue to a typical split of how much money comes from the Arts Council, and fow much from CRT?

 

For this current pilot programme of projects Arts Council England contributed an initial £40,000, and the Canal & River Trust is putting in £60,000 from its general marketing budget.

 

Taken from this page

Edited December 1, 2012 by alan_fincher

[twbm]

Went through Hillmorton today. Started off with rant and lamenting the absence of any appropriate filler in the boats tool kit, but after reading the text and pondering as we worked through I started to think it doesn't do any harm, might do a bit of good - although the ingenious elegant simplicity of a lock and its mechanisms strike me as being a piece of art in their own right.

 

Jolted back to reality when we found the elsan disposal blocked and overflowing with sewage. Turns out a traditional rag mop makes a bloody good drain plunger, so left it better than we found it.

Edited December 1, 2012 by twbm

[dove]

Went through Hillmorton today. Started off with rant and lamenting the absence of any appropriate filler in the boats tool kit, but after reading the text and pondering as we worked through I started to think it doesn't do any harm, might do a bit of good - although the ingenious elegant simplicity of a lock and its mechanisms strike me as being a piece of art in their own right.

 

Jolted back to reality when we found the elsan disposal blocked and overflowing with sewage. Turns out a traditional rag mop makes a bloody good drain plunger, so left it better than we found it.

 

Love it, couldn't have put it better myself. If you like "art" etc. go to an Art gallery. If want to see proper art known as craftmanship look how the canal and it's structures were built. I think it's about time some you bought a caravan.

Here have a look at this crap!£60,000 ????

http://www.locklines.org.uk/

[sueb]

Cart do know about the state of the elsan point. They also seem to have given up on the canal side repairs after removing large stones from the bottom but we have new Defra tape

[twbm]

Cart do know about the state of the elsan point. They also seem to have given up on the canal side repairs after removing large stones from the bottom but we have new Defra tape

 

I left it unblocked, clean and running clear around 3pm yesterday. It took about 2 minutes to sort. There may be an, erm, opening for specialised volunteers here ...

 

 

Ponging water going nowhere,

 

This wad of paper made depth captive for a while.

Edited December 2, 2012 by twbm

[John Holden]

Love it, couldn't have put it better myself. If you like "art" etc. go to an Art gallery. If want to see proper art known as craftmanship look how the canal and it's structures were built. I think it's about time some you bought a caravan.

Here have a look at this crap!£60,000 ????

http://www.locklines.org.uk/

 

Hey Dove, I think it's about time you reread your signature line

[churchward]

I agree with you that it is partnership with the Arts Council, and if you look at post 16, I actually acklnowledged this.

 

However just using the term "partnership" doesn't say how much funding is coming from each partner, and certainly to me doesn't automatically mean it is all from one partner, and not the other.

 

I am sure I saw numbers that showed it to be roughly half and half between CRT and the Arts Council, just I can't find them again now. So I don't think your statement below is true.

 

 

 

Happy to see the evidence one way of the other though, (preferably without anybody going to the expense of an FOI request!)

 

EDITED TO ADD:

 

I don't claim this to be the total answer speciically about "Lock Lines", but may give a clue to a typical split of how much money comes from the Arts Council, and fow much from CRT?

 

 

 

Taken from this page

Yes I found that too I was surprised. Still £60K from the marketing budget isn't that much and further funding from outside the CRT is OK too.

 

I still like the concept and the actuality at Hillmorton. We do have to accept that there needs to be ways to attract the non-boater and while we might wish that all the money could be spent on maintenance to enhance navigation it isn't realistic.

[dove]

Hey Dove, I think it's about time you reread your signature line

 

What is on the lock beams is far from a craft, It's meaningless drivel and doesn't belong there, that's my criticisum.

Edited December 2, 2012 by dove

[John Holden]

What is on the lock beams is far from a craft, It's meaningless drivel and doesn't belong there, that's my criticisum.

 

Like I said . . .

 

It is only your opinion that it is meaningless drivel and doesn't belong there.

If poetry and carving are not crafts then what, in your opinion, is?

[dove]

Like I said . . .

 

It is only your opinion that it is meaningless drivel and doesn't belong there.

If poetry and carving are not crafts then what, in your opinion, is?

 

The lock gate for one, the brickwork around it and bits of ironwork that hold it all together. Have a closer look at a lock and there you will see craftmanship.

 

Think about the Brick layer, the Carpenter and Blacksmith back in the 1800's now they produced art.

[DaveC]

What is on the lock beams is far from a craft, It's meaningless drivel and doesn't belong there, that's my criticisum.

 

 

100% agree with that.

 

Dave

[John Holden]

The lock gate for one, the brickwork around it and bits of ironwork that hold it all together. Have a closer look at a lock and there you will see craftmanship.

 

Think about the Brick layer, the Carpenter and Blacksmith back in the 1800's now they produced art.

 

And likewise the poet and the carver, the only difference is that three of them produced accidental art, the latter two deliberate art.

 

BTW I bet there were loads of begrudgers when the canals were built too - scandalous, desecrating our countryside with their hideous constructions, it shouldn't be allowed! There must be better things to spend the money on.

Edited December 2, 2012 by John Holden

[dove]

And likewise the poet and the carver, the only difference is that three of them produced accidental art, the latter two deliberate art.

 

 

Does that mean you like the gaffeti that's on a lot of the walls, balance beam and the like. That deliberate and looks much the same.

[John Holden]

Does that mean you like the gaffeti that's on a lot of the walls, balance beam and the like. That deliberate and looks much the same.

 

There is a subway near where I live that was constantly falling victim to graffiti. Last summer some kids from the local school went in and decorated it with their interpretation of classic art works, and very good it looked too. Since then the subway is entirely graffiti free.

 

No, I don't much like graffiti but if you think it looks the same as the carving on the beams then I am very sorry for you.