Compact but comfy

[boathunter]

You start the thread as if you're thinking of building a boat, you now seem to have already built it. Not just here trying to drum up business are you? For the £30,000 it costs for the bells and whistles version of your engine and electrical gadgetry, I can buy a complete second hand boat...

Edited November 16, 2012 by boathunter

[Bill2]

Fully agree with Gibbo & RLWP.

Having spent a considerable amount of time working on hybrids for road use they only work due to the recovered energy which means city driving with lots of stop start. For long distance driving they're a lot worse since you've got to carry the extra battery and motor weight which affects fuel economy and CO2. I looked at converting our boat to electric drive however the overall efficiency was poor due to the power conversion and storage losses. There's a reason why most vehicles are parallel hybrids (direct connection possible between engine and wheels) rather than series hybrids (engine runs generator, electric motor powers wheels) and that's due to the losses. From all the work done one of the most efficient forms of personal transport is the bicycle!

 

Gibbo's not quite right about battery life. Using Lithium ion batteries it is possible to have a decent battery life. You'll just need to budget between £10,000 to £20,000 for the battery pack and also the engineering costs for the development of a 1 off pack.

The diesel motor, electric motor, inverter and 800Ah (@48v) battery pack costs<£20,000 . Don't know what te batteries cost but the diesel motor's over £6,000.

[Bill2]

I spent the whole of last winter with no functional plumbing and a ten minute walk to and from the nearest working tap.

It's doable, obviously. I am very happy now I have a water tank, shower and Paloma, but I am also glad I had the experience without it too, if only to prove to myself I could manage.

 

I don't have any intelligent comments to make on the hybrid drive, battery or other tech issues, but I feel it might be worth mentioning that if you (OP) are looking for the smallest liveaboard possible without sacrificing comfort, you can, in my opinion, shave another five feet off of your spec.

I live quite happily on a 30ft (cruiser stern too) boat, and still manage to have a fixed double bed, full size shower, toilet, solid fuel stove, full size sink and oven, small fridge, sofa and lots of cupboard space. Worktop space is at a premium, but I manage!

Very impressive! Can you post a layout so I can pick your brains? The boss will need a bath but that shouldn't need 5 feet more.

[RLWP]

<snip>

 

Can ask what aspect of going to the loo at 03:00 is causing you dificulty?

 

Bill2, I could be up for a discussion on this, except you really want to do this, so your mind is closed to the drawbacks and limitations

 

Richard

[Bill2]

Do you have any photos of this boat Bill2

I fear it's all in the mind, I suspect it would cost around £50,000. I could afford only a fraction of that. The hybrid motor co. would build it around a Beta 20 and I'm told a double chine hull woud reduce drag and cost no more than the single.

[Paul C]

Most new boats have 230v & 12v wiring, this one looses 12v wiring.

This boat has no plumbing to radiators or boiler.

Normal house's ventilation changes air in ca one hour, the safety advice for a "normal boat vhanges the

air every five minutes. The cooling effeect of this swamps any other heat-loss mechanisms, hence the

dearth of double glazed boats.

The accomodation on this boat relys on a 10 foot triple purpose lounge/ dining room/ bedroom which

can be converted in ca. 2 minutes. Thus saving 20 foot of a 57 footer.

 

Re the wiring, yes it doesn't need 12V wiring but there will be more 240V wiring - for example the lights will need 240V wires instead of 12V. And all other 12V devices you might find on a narrowboat, which now need to be 240V items.

 

I'm not sure about the savings from lower requirement of ventilation - I'd be interested to see where the actual heat losses from a narrowboat are (of course, this varies from boat to boat and on how its built), I accept that an amount of heat loss occurs through the requirement for ventilation though.

 

Regarding layout, make up beds are nothing new in narrowboats and I think its a bit naive to say you can save 20 feet by using a convertible bed/dinette/lounge. For example in our boat (NOT a fixed double bed, but a cross double which is made up in approx 8 seconds) the underbed area isn't 'dead', its used for storage; and of course the bedding is stored on top of the bed in the daytime. You'd need somewhere to store that on your convertible, etc.

 

EDIT: another aspect, if you're looking at a 35 foot boat, make sure the engine bay can accommodate the engine + hybrid equipment, it adds a bit to the length and on small boats the engine area gets squished up too - but on the flip side, smaller boats have smaller engines. I've seen small boats where the engine area is tiny. It might make your 35' boat look very much out of proportion if you need a long rear deck area to fit all the kit in.

 

Have any of the builders got back to you yet? Have you chased them up? Anyone 'official' given a reason why they can't/won't build it yet?

[Bill2]

Bill2, I could be up for a discussion on this, except you really want to do this, so your mind is closed to the drawbacks and limitations

 

Richard

I am well aware of one drawback. The initial cost is high, if all the aspects of the boat perform as hoped it's worth every penny but if they don't, how much can you loose?

[ditchcrawler]

I am well aware of one drawback. The initial cost is high, if all the aspects of the boat perform as hoped it's worth every penny but if they don't, how much can you loose?

60 grand, just look what happened when they tried to sell Whitfield.

[johnmck]

In this age of cut-backs, I thought I would try to find a specification for a comfortable “live-aboard” narrow boat with the lowest possible running cost.

 

The main, unavoidable, running costs are licence fee and moorings, both are length dependant so a short narrow boat is indicated. I chose 35 foot as an achievable length to keep the “comfortable” specification satisfied,(saving £290 pa on a 70 footer licence and up to £1400 pa on a marina berth.). Also allows a 35 foot rigidly attached butty in more affluent times!

Another overhead cost or comfort inconvenience is the toilet, cost of pump-out ( £5 per week? £250 pa ) or inconvenience of emptying. Avoided by use of an earth closet.

 

This saving of ca. £2000 pa will help justify the expensive feature:

 

Hybrid drive from www.hybridmarine.co.uk on the Isle of wight. The result of using their drive system is a massive price for the engine (doubled) and a massive amount of electrical power( equivalent to three thousand amp hours at 12 volts ).

 

The makers claim to halve fuel consumption ( saving the cost of a gallon of fuel for every day cruising ).

The copious supply of electric power allows us to make capital savings eg:

 

No 12 volt wiring needed,

No plumbing or boiler for central heating.

If we cook electric the ventilation requirement drops dramatically,

minimum effective area (mm2) = [2200xU]+[650xP]+[440xF] Where: U = total input rating (kW) for all appliances (including cookers) without flues F = input rating (kW) for all open or closed flue appliances P = number of people for which the compartment is designed

gas cooker 5kw=U=11000

stove 8kw=F=3520

people 2=P=1300

Normal boat needs 15820 sq.mm. of ventilation

This boat needs 1300 sq.mm.

Ten times less ventilation is about ten times less heat loss. I.e. 8kw stove replaced by 1kw electric heater!

 

I drew up a “Word” document which I sent to several builders, but I haven’t been able to get even a + or - £5000 estimate.

 

What next?

 

Like you, I was initially all for a hybrid. But....I looked into this in some depth and the costs just made no sense. You can buy an awful lot of fuel/moorings for the money you will expend intially. The systems available are just not up to the job. Storage and maintanance of the battery bank would be a nightmare, more so on such a short boat.

 

A builder worth his/her salt would have to cost this very carefully. To build a 35ft boat rather than say a 57ft, would show only a minimal saving on materials. The work fitting out would be nearly the same.

 

Sorry, but your costings and expectations are just not realistic, but good luck. Some very good advice to be had on here, please heed it.

[Gibbo]

I will state categorically that hybrid will not work efficiently on a narrowboat. Never in a million years.

 

If you want to go ahead and do it, by all means do, it's your money.

 

But I guarantee in 5 years time you'll be thinking to yourself "Why the hell did I not listen to everyone who said it was a shit idea?". Because, quite simply, a shit idea is exactly what it is.

[Gibbo]

Deleted.

Edited November 17, 2012 by Gibbo

[Starcoaster]

Very impressive! Can you post a layout so I can pick your brains? The boss will need a bath but that shouldn't need 5 feet more.

 

Bill, this is the layout of my boat in diagrammatic form:

 

 

The shower room functions as a partial wet room (with a shower curtain to cover the door) with a 900mm by 900mm quadrant tray with a porta potti cassette toilet inside of it against the back wall on a little shelf which only sticks out into the actual shower floor space by a few inches. A paloma gas instant water heater is next to the back door above the fridge.

A 300l water tank is under the bed, and there is lots of storage under the bed too, shelving above the bed, as well as shelves at the end of it in the bow and a small chest of drawers on a platform, and storage under the lounge bench seat, none of which are shown in the diagram.

 

I'm not at all sure that you could fit a bath into this exact layout, but if you had a trad stern (thereby gaining a few extra feet of internal cabin) possibly you could.

Edited November 16, 2012 by Starcoaster

[Iain_S]

I will state categorically that hybrid will not work efficiently on a narrowboat. Never in a million years.

 

If you want to go ahead and do it, by all means do, it's your money.

 

But I guarantee in 5 years time you'll be thinking to yourself "Why the hell did I not listen to everyone who said it was a shit idea?". Because, quite simply, a shit idea is exactly what it is.

 

Where it MIGHT score is in locks, where an electric motor will be more efficient through not using power when in "neutral". (I'm thinking parallel hybrid, last option on page Although I suppose you could achieve greater savings by switching off a conventional engine and bow hauling though the locks

 

Iain

[Gibbo]

Where it MIGHT score is in locks, where an electric motor will be more efficient through not using power when in "neutral". (I'm thinking parallel hybrid, last option on page Although I suppose you could achieve greater savings by switching off a conventional engine and bow hauling though the locks

 

Yes, I accept that it could use less fuel. But there's simply no way it could use enough less to ever come close to paying for itself.

 

To repeat from earlier in the thread, if it was such a good idea why has it been such an abysmal failure in cars?

[Chalky]

 

Yes, I accept that it could use less fuel. But there's simply no way it could use enough less to ever come close to paying for itself.

 

 

Fully agree with Gibbo. Having spent 2 years working on research in this area it's all down to the usage cycle and the boat one doesn't fit close. If there was a benefit I'd have done it using knowledge and contacts from my previous research project.

 

http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/sci/wmg/research/lcvtp/

[Arthur Brown]

Hybrid power works a bit in cars where there is a significant part of the duty cycle spent crawling along (eg in traffic jams) -the electric drive goes off when not needed. On a boat this represents only the through lock phase.

 

Now if you went for a truly LONG boat in the order of 70feet then there may be enough roof area to get enough electrical energy to do real electric propulsion in the height of summer - Lots of solar cells will charge 48v batteries which does seen to match lots of fork trucks being 48v so there may be some ready made kit.

[Bill2]

I think that the hybrid drive in a boat works in a completely different way to that in a car. The company recommend up to 800Ah @ 48v. That's 3,200 Ah @12v. The batteries must weigh around one and a half tons. This would present a problem in a car weighing < one ton. Not so in a narrow boat weighing around ten tons.

The space taken up is more of a problem but managable. I think they would fill a space about 6ft. * 2ft. * 18in.(18 cubic feet).

The engine is run for an hour, using < a gallon of fuel and going ca. 4 miles. The XS power puts enough electricity into the batteries to go for 2 hours (8 miles), giving > 12mpg.

 

I was thinking of having ca. 10 sq.metres of photovoltaic panels on the roof giving up to 2kw on a sunny sumers day (when you don't need it).

[Paul C]

The XS power puts enough electricity into the batteries to go for 2 hours (8 miles), giving > 12mpg.

 

 

 

What excess power? There is no "excess power" when running a diesel engine. In a normal canal boat engine setup, the power goes towards turning the propellor (if not in neutral) and any accessories eg water pump, alternator(s). If the batteries needed charging, the alternator would place a load on the engine, and you'd need to burn diesel (pay money) to turn the alternator.

 

Google "law of conservation of energy".

 

Solar + electric drive would be more efficient but is a completely different kettle of fish!

[Chris Pink]

Capital send vs revenue - he uses different pockets for each one

 

Richard

 

As did Shumacher

[Chris Pink]

What excess power? There is no "excess power" when running a diesel engine. In a normal canal boat engine setup, the power goes towards turning the propellor (if not in neutral) and any accessories eg water pump, alternator(s). If the batteries needed charging, the alternator would place a load on the engine, and you'd need to burn diesel (pay money) to turn the alternator.

 

 

There is shed-loads of surplus power when a 30hp engine is pushing a boat. Running a boat on diesel is incredibly inefficient.

 

 

Two points in this thread: I know of three attempts at solar powered electric drive. All failed. One (at last count) was still electric but series hybrid - engine charges batteries runs motor. Chalky is wrong about parallel series on a boat. The usage pattern is different, no regeneration and the efficiency requirements are different so series is a much better solution. Of the other two, the amount of solar on the roof, one wide one narrow wasn't enough to keep the batteries in good order or provide enough power for realistic cruising.

 

The other is Capri's comment about plumbing. I use a foot pump for almost all my plumbing, a decision based on where I wanted to place my power and have a silent means of running a tap at night. I have an electric pump for the shower to run the morco..

 

I've run likr this for years, wouldn't swap it and I'm about to convert a boat with an electric pump because it's a right pain.

 

 

..

Edited November 18, 2012 by Chris Pink

[Bill2]

Bill, this is the layout of my boat in diagrammatic form:

 

 

The shower room functions as a partial wet room (with a shower curtain to cover the door) with a 900mm by 900mm quadrant tray with a porta potti cassette toilet inside of it against the back wall on a little shelf which only sticks out into the actual shower floor space by a few inches. A paloma gas instant water heater is next to the back door above the fridge.

A 300l water tank is under the bed, and there is lots of storage under the bed too, shelving above the bed, as well as shelves at the end of it in the bow and a small chest of drawers on a platform, and storage under the lounge bench seat, none of which are shown in the diagram.

 

I'm not at all sure that you could fit a bath into this exact layout, but if you had a trad stern (thereby gaining a few extra feet of internal cabin) possibly you could.

This is the address for lashed up website with captioned diagrams

 

http://comfybutshort.weebly.com

[Paul C]

There is shed-loads of surplus power when a 30hp engine is pushing a boat. Running a boat on diesel is incredibly inefficient.

 

 

 

If a canal boat is progressing along at less than its maximum revs (ie as you say above, there's surplus power available) then its not generating 30hp, it will be far less. If you somehow arrange for the engine to rev higher (without affecting cruising speed, eg hydraulic drive or something) then yes it could generate 'excess' power for an electric generator, but that would increase fuel consumption. The idea that you can simply tap into a free excess of power, is not possible.

 

If you could utilise some of the heat losses or convert it into useful mechanical power, then it could be possible to increase the efficiency of a diesel engine. (Turbocharger was invented in 1885).

[Bill2]

If a canal boat is progressing along at less than its maximum revs (ie as you say above, there's surplus power available) then its not generating 30hp, it will be far less. If you somehow arrange for the engine to rev higher (without affecting cruising speed, eg hydraulic drive or something) then yes it could generate 'excess' power for an electric generator, but that would increase fuel consumption. The idea that you can simply tap into a free excess of power, is not possible.

 

If you could utilise some of the heat losses or convert it into useful mechanical power, then it could be possible to increase the efficiency of a diesel engine. (Turbocharger was invented in 1885).

 

I've given this some thought:-

 

The 30 bhp engine will give 30bhp at ca. 4,000 rpm. the bhp is proportional to rpm, so at 1,000 rpm it will be giving 7.5 bhp. About 4 bhp will move the boat at 4 mph the extra 3.5 bhp is used to drive fuep, oil and cooling water pumps; these are overheads and fairly constant.AT 1,000 RPM 4/7.*100=53% of your fuel is beingused for producing power.

 

At 4,000 rpm the engine will produce 30 bhp, 3.5 bhp will still cover overheads and 26.5/30 * 100 = 88.3% of your fuel is being used for producing power.

 

your motor is producing 20kw of storable electricity, is that a shed load?

 

Bill Adam

[Paul C]

power isn't proportional to rpm - its not far off, but it isn't proportional

 

where did you get the 4bhp requirement to move the boat at 4mph from? Reference please

 

where did you get the 3.5bhp requirement to drive pumps from - once again, a reference is needed.

 

Without the references, your 53% is a figure plucked out of thin air.

 

at 4000rpm, the accessories will need more power to drive them than at 1000rpm - for example, for pumps, power requirement is proportional to the cube of shaft speed.

 

Why later mention something in kW when you started in bhp?

[Grace and Favour]

I propose that Bill2 build his boat and then settle this subject evidentially.

 

(with his own money of course)