Compact but comfy

[Mac of Cygnet]

Now, now.....this is the life I chose out of my beliefs.

 

That's very intriguing. Do you mind me asking what beliefs they are? (It's just I can't envisage any credo that's against plumbing).

[Proper Job]

That's very intriguing. Do you mind me asking what beliefs they are? (It's just I can't envisage any credo that's against plumbing).

I suppose not all beliefs are religious.

 

Maybe just the belief of making a minimal impact on the surrounding environment?

[Caprifool]

It makes me happy? But apart from that, I find it rewarding to know I don't need buttons and taps for my most basic needs. The stove is in six months per year, and the kettle is on there most of the time anyway. Why buy, install and maintain a second heat source to largen my bills? I like low tech solutions, where possible. I have Internet and electricity, sure....but choose a simpler life in other areas. I heat my house with wood and chop about 15-20 cubic meters per year. I suffer from side effects of medication and frankly, chopping and fetching wood, running to the bog....all gets me outside and keeps me fit. I'm not winging in my sette in front of the telle like many ther sickies. I am doing the best I can, instead of criticising society for not giving me what the norm says I need. Bla bla bla.....I could go on for ever But also, shitting in good drinking water is a bloody waste! Pumps break and cost a fortune. The carbon foot print of a lump of steel made in and shipped from china is? A bucket is.....what, 1 pound? This is also why i knit instead of take the bus to town to buy a hat. Id rather milk a goat at home than take the car to the shops. Step outside and pick my veg instead of going to market 23 km's away.....and so on. And did I mention it makes me happy?

 

Anyway, the OP was writing about his ideas for cheap boating. And to me, part of that is to separate the needs from the wants.

Edited November 13, 2012 by Caprifool

[Mac of Cygnet]

It makes me happy? But apart from that, I find it rewarding to know I don't need buttons and taps for my most basic needs. The stove is in six months per year, and the kettle is on there most of the time anyway. Why buy, install and maintain a second heat source to largen my bills? I like low tech solutions, where possible. I have Internet and electricity, sure....but choose a simpler life in other areas. I heat my house with wood and chop about 15-20 cubic meters per year. I suffer from side effects of medication and frankly, chopping and fetching wood, running to the bog....all gets me outside and keeps me fit. I'm not winging in my sette in front of the telle like many ther sickies. I am doing the best I can, instead of criticising society for not giving me what the norm says I need. Bla bla bla.....I could go on for ever But also, shitting in good drinking water is a bloody waste! Pumps break and cost a fortune. The carbon foot print of a lump of steel made in and shipped from china is? A bucket is.....what, 1 pound? This is also why i knit instead of take the bus to town to buy a hat. Id rather milk a goat at home than take the car to the shops. Step outside and pick my veg instead of going to market 23 km's away.....and so on. And did I mention it makes me happy?

 

Anyway, the OP was writing about his ideas for cheap boating. And to me, part of that is to separate the needs from the wants.

 

Well, OK, my lifestyle is very similar to yours, in most respects, including heating the house with wood, etc. It was only the plumbing which puzzled me. Our water and that of 5 other houses comes from the hill above the house, by gravity. No environmental impact, as far as I can tell There is plenty, so that used for flushing the loo is just going to the same place as it would anyway (into the river via the septic tank). But I suppose a well is a different kettle of fish, so to speak. Good luck!

 

Edited 'cos I botched the smiley.

Edited November 13, 2012 by Mac of Cygnet

[Starcoaster]

I spent the whole of last winter with no functional plumbing and a ten minute walk to and from the nearest working tap.

It's doable, obviously. I am very happy now I have a water tank, shower and Paloma, but I am also glad I had the experience without it too, if only to prove to myself I could manage.

 

I don't have any intelligent comments to make on the hybrid drive, battery or other tech issues, but I feel it might be worth mentioning that if you (OP) are looking for the smallest liveaboard possible without sacrificing comfort, you can, in my opinion, shave another five feet off of your spec.

I live quite happily on a 30ft (cruiser stern too) boat, and still manage to have a fixed double bed, full size shower, toilet, solid fuel stove, full size sink and oven, small fridge, sofa and lots of cupboard space. Worktop space is at a premium, but I manage!

[Timleech]

Yeah, right, but not exactly practical for long term is it?

 

 

 

It's all that we have on ours

 

ETA - the kettle goes on a paraffin cooker, which has to be preheated. We do have a 24V electric kettle, but it's quicker to get the stove going and it doesn't flatten the battery.

 

Tim

Edited November 13, 2012 by Timleech

[Caprifool]

Cherry twigs is great for that first morning coffee. Mac, problem is the house is up on top of our hill

[GSer]

I spent the whole of last winter with no functional plumbing and a ten minute walk to and from the nearest working tap.

It's doable, obviously. I am very happy now I have a water tank, shower and Paloma, but I am also glad I had the experience without it too, if only to prove to myself I could manage.

 

I don't have any intelligent comments to make on the hybrid drive, battery or other tech issues, but I feel it might be worth mentioning that if you (OP) are looking for the smallest liveaboard possible without sacrificing comfort, you can, in my opinion, shave another five feet off of your spec.

I live quite happily on a 30ft (cruiser stern too) boat, and still manage to have a fixed double bed, full size shower, toilet, solid fuel stove, full size sink and oven, small fridge, sofa and lots of cupboard space. Worktop space is at a premium, but I manage!

 

 

 

I think its only fair to tell him its a 2 story gin palace

[Arthur Brown]

There is NO WAY that generated power can be cheaper than shoreline mains. It's likely that the best deals in boat prices come from buying well -especially if you have ready cash. A great help to living cheaply is to use conventional systems, getting a diesel-electric system serviced will usually need the manufacturer's service agent -likely expensive.

[matty40s]

There is NO WAY that generated power can be cheaper than shoreline mains. It's likely that the best deals in boat prices come from buying well -especially if you have ready cash. A great help to living cheaply is to use conventional systems, getting a diesel-electric system serviced will usually need the manufacturer's service agent -likely expensive.

 

So how come I ran for almost 6 months without running my engine umless I was moving. How come some friends of mine still havn't had to run their engine for power...other than moving.

Arthur, you started off the year spouting crap about solar, looks like you will finish the year spouting it as well.

[Proper Job]

There is NO WAY that generated power can be cheaper than shoreline mains. It's likely that the best deals in boat prices come from buying well -especially if you have ready cash. A great help to living cheaply is to use conventional systems, getting a diesel-electric system serviced will usually need the manufacturer's service agent -likely expensive.

I think you'll find that shore line mains is generated.

 

Just not at the point of use

[Gibbo]

So how come I ran for almost 6 months without running my engine umless I was moving.

 

Your solar panels were free?

[RLWP]

Your solar panels were free?

 

Capital send vs revenue - he uses different pockets for each one

 

Richard

[Gibbo]

Capital send vs revenue - he uses different pockets for each one

 

[Chalky]

Capital send vs revenue - he uses different pockets for each one

 

Richard

 

I always found that one amusing. I worked for an electrical company many years ago (green stripe with down and backwards white arrow) that was hiring MicroVaxs (portable PDP11) for £1000 a month. They'd hired them for 4 years. A new microvax was £10K. When I asked finance why we didn't buy them since it was cheaper I was told that I didn't understand finance since one was capital and the other was revenue! It just confirmed what I always suspected...

[RLWP]

I was an apprentice with that company

 

Richard

[Grace and Favour]

I was an apprentice with that company

 

Richard

 

But not in Finance I trust!!!!!

[Proper Job]

Finance and contracts are a strange world that don't always make sense to the guys at the sharp end.

 

We have some jobs that are priced on day rates and cost plus for materials and equipment. Guy's on those jobs cannot understand why kit is hired in for the work when the yard is full of stuff.

 

The simple fact is, if we use our own kit, we can't charge for it. If we hire the kit in we charge the client for it + 10%.

 

If a jobs fixed price, we use our own kit and do it as cheap as poss.

[Pen n Ink]

I always found that one amusing. I worked for an electrical company many years ago (green stripe with down and backwards white arrow) that was hiring MicroVaxs (portable PDP11) for £1000 a month. They'd hired them for 4 years. A new microvax was £10K. When I asked finance why we didn't buy them since it was cheaper I was told that I didn't understand finance since one was capital and the other was revenue! It just confirmed what I always suspected...

 

 

Aaah.... nostalgic sigh... VMS.....

 

(Honest - it makes sense if you know!)

[Gibbo]

The simple fact is, if we use our own kit, we can't charge for it. If we hire the kit in we charge the client for it + 10%.

 

I would suggest there is something horribly wrong with your business model if you can't charge for use of your own equipment.

[David Mack]

Finance and contracts are a strange world that don't always make sense to the guys at the sharp end.

 

We have some jobs that are priced on day rates and cost plus for materials and equipment. Guy's on those jobs cannot understand why kit is hired in for the work when the yard is full of stuff.

 

The simple fact is, if we use our own kit, we can't charge for it. If we hire the kit in we charge the client for it + 10%.

 

If a jobs fixed price, we use our own kit and do it as cheap as poss.

 

Why not? Most companies do in that position. After all it costs money to buy and maintain your own kit, so it is reasonable to charge the customer to use it. You can always charge it on at a price a little lower than cost of external hire, that way the customer gets a cheaper job, and the company makes more than 10% of the hire price.

[Proper Job]

I would suggest there is something horribly wrong with your business model if you can't charge for use of your own equipment.

Nothing wrong with our business model. It's often the client terms of contract that make it more lucritive to use hire kit

 

Why not? Most companies do in that position. After all it costs money to buy and maintain your own kit, so it is reasonable to charge the customer to use it. You can always charge it on at a price a little lower than cost of external hire, that way the customer gets a cheaper job, and the company makes more than 10% of the hire price.

We have got our own kit that we have bought and maintain. However, under some terms of contract, by hiring in equipment we can charge the hire cost on to the client (+10%). This saves the wear and tear on our kit.

 

It's madness, I know, but that's the way it works. We rarely make the rules, we just play by them.

[Bill2]

There's a reason why most boats use similar equipment. Personally, I'd forget about hybrid drive and draw up the specification more/less similar to other boats. For example, there's several flaws in your plan:

 

- Boat will still need the same amount of wiring (it will be 240V not 12V though).

- You'll still need plumbing for hot water.

- 10x less ventilation ISN'T 10x less heat loss, heat loss will occur in many places other than the vents. A lot of boaters seem to get by with a solid fuel stove and 'free' wood foraged from the environment, and with the small interior size of a narrowboat, no issues at all with heating the interior up to a comfortable level.

 

Don't forget that 35 foot boat length (half of a 70 footer) doesn't mean half the cabin space, it means less than half, because you can't reduce the open areas at bow/stern that much. 35' is pretty small for a liveaboard. There's a reason why liveaboard boats tend to be around 57 feet.

Most new boats have 230v & 12v wiring, this one looses 12v wiring.

This boat has no plumbing to radiators or boiler.

Normal house's ventilation changes air in ca one hour, the safety advice for a "normal boat vhanges the

air every five minutes. The cooling effeect of this swamps any other heat-loss mechanisms, hence the

dearth of double glazed boats.

The accomodation on this boat relys on a 10 foot triple purpose lounge/ dining room/ bedroom which

can be converted in ca. 2 minutes. Thus saving 20 foot of a 57 footer.

[Bill2]

EDIT: just realised, you're planning to not have 12V electrics at all - does this mean you'd rely on an engine generator to make the 240V? ie with no engine running, no power? You need power between 8pm and 8am surely??? Fridge? Evening lighting, telly, etc? So you'll need batteries --> 12V electrical system.

 

If you look at www.hybridmarine.co.uk you will see that their "enhanced" power unit comes with 800Ah of

batteries at 48v (same as 3200 Ah at 12v) and a huge inverter. The 48v wiring links motor,inverter and

batteries; it does not go all round the boat.

 

Or a 24V or 48V system. Either way a big battery bank will be needed to run a 1KW heater + the other usual appliances when the engine is not running. A 1kW heater running for, say, 5 hours would consume 105 amp hours @48V. This would probably need at least a 300Ah (@48V) battery bank to support this usage. Equivalent to approximately 12 x 12V 110Ah batteries, although 24 x 2V batteries would be easier to maintain. The regular replacement cost of the batteries will be a large ongoing cost! Big saving on ballast though!

 

The other part of the running costs which are not factored in is depreciation of the boat. A boat so unusual as this is likely to be worth only half what it costs to build as a used boat the day after it's put in the water!

No problem, the hybrid system comes with an 800Ah (@48v), and depreciation only applies if you sell it.

 

Having had another think about this; is the OP actually thinking about a holiday boat or a live-aboard, because although his "ideas" might by OK for a personal owner it probably wouldn't fit a hire market.

 

Caprifool, so how do you provide a simple method of providing hot and cold running water in a boat?

We have a 2sq.m solar panel on the roof and, as back-up, a 1kw imersion heater in the hot water tank. The water tank can be kept full from the canal througha reverse osmosis filter!

 

Oh, the decadence of modern society

 

Incidentally, I think the OP's idea is rubbish - what happens at 3:00AM when you go to the loo?

 

Richardlty?

fficu

Can ask what aspect of going to the loo at 03:00 is causing you dificulty?

[ditchcrawler]

Do you have any photos of this boat Bill2