Joan II - Leonard Leigh tug

[hecla777]

Laurence Hogg in another post asked about what happened to Joan II (and Joan). I understood that Joan II was broken up 'down south' ten or so years ago, but does anyone have the real facts?

 

ATB

 

Martin O'Keeffe

[Laurence Hogg]

Joan II was extemsivly repaired at Keays in the late 1970's as shown here. She had a modern cabin and the towage arrangement was gone from the stern as shown in the B/W picture. The last I saw of this boat was when it was moored at Fazeley St Birmingham (what is now known as "The Bond")in about 1980/1.

 

As originally built:

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On the dock at Keays:

[johnthebridge]

Laurence Hogg in another post asked about what happened to Joan II (and Joan). I understood that Joan II was broken up 'down south' ten or so years ago, but does anyone have the real facts?

 

ATB

 

Martin O'Keeffe

I bought Joan in about 1989/90, when she was then lying at Digls in a fairly decrepit state. She had been completely stripped inside. I took her down the Severn to the G&S, with the National running erratically and the hull taking on a fair drop of water. I had to run her up the bank just below Chacely to stem the flow with mud off the bottom. It worked well and got me to Gloucester.

On closer inspection, she turned out to be a real basket case, and I sold the National (it was a stationary type with flywheel on the after, gearbox end, no raised hand start, and also had a large frosting crack in the block). My great friend, the late Martin Cox, cast his eye over her and told me I was certifiably insane to have bought her. I seem to remember advertising the rest in WW and, despite a detailed description of her condition by Martin, a very agreeable German antique dealer insisted on buying her. He was intent on taking her to Germany in his furniture pantechnicon and re-building her there, but best laid plans etc, and I think he subsequently sold her on to someone on the Wey. I have this vague memory of him telling me the new owner was a leading light in the vintage lawnmower world, but I may have imagined it. I think she then lay on the bank there for some years, and I later heard she'd been scrapped.

[Laurence Hogg]

I bought Joan in about 1989/90, when she was then lying at Digls in a fairly decrepit state. She had been completely stripped inside. I took her down the Severn to the G&S, with the National running erratically and the hull taking on a fair drop of water. I had to run her up the bank just below Chacely to stem the flow with mud off the bottom. It worked well and got me to Gloucester.

On closer inspection, she turned out to be a real basket case, and I sold the National (it was a stationary type with flywheel on the after, gearbox end, no raised hand start, and also had a large frosting crack in the block). My great friend, the late Martin Cox, cast his eye over her and told me I was certifiably insane to have bought her. I seem to remember advertising the rest in WW and, despite a detailed description of her condition by Martin, a very agreeable German antique dealer insisted on buying her. He was intent on taking her to Germany in his furniture pantechnicon and re-building her there, but best laid plans etc, and I think he subsequently sold her on to someone on the Wey. I have this vague memory of him telling me the new owner was a leading light in the vintage lawnmower world, but I may have imagined it. I think she then lay on the bank there for some years, and I later heard she'd been scrapped.

 

I am presuming this is the original "Joan" and not "Joan 2". I do remember the two were at Keays during my knowledge of the yard. The work undertook on "Joan 2" was extensive and the last I remember of her is moored in Brum, there might be an outside chance she is still around in some guise. One thing thats puzzled me and others is the the shape of "Joan 2" fore end, it is very Josher like and it may be that she was a conversion. The rudder blade shown in the colour picture is also from a Josher motor judging from the shape. Anyone care to comment?

[hecla777]

Laurence

 

Was Joan II shortened at some point then? The boat on the dock looks a bit shorter than the tug.

 

Regards

 

Martin O'Keeffe

[Laurence Hogg]

Laurence

 

Was Joan II shortened at some point then? The boat on the dock looks a bit shorter than the tug.

 

Regards

 

Martin O'Keeffe

I dont know Martin, the cabin was low as you can see, I suspect the "modern" cabin is higher so it may be perspective, there are more pictures of her on the dock, the more you study the more it seems to look like a full length motor cut down.

[AMModels]

Laurence

 

Was Joan II shortened at some point then? The boat on the dock looks a bit shorter than the tug.

 

Regards

 

Martin O'Keeffe

 

 

I dont know Martin, the cabin was low as you can see, I suspect the "modern" cabin is higher so it may be perspective, there are more pictures of her on the dock, the more you study the more it seems to look like a full length motor cut down.

 

My first thought when I saw the pic was the same as Martins, but Laurence makes a good point about perspective.

 

Do any of the pics you have Laurence show her before the planking was replaced and with the guards still on?

 

With the framing visible does anyone know if it looks like Uxbridge work, someone with intimate knowledge may be able to rule out certain yards maybe?

[Laurence Hogg]

When the boat was on the dock it was next to Uxbridge built 1932 FMC motor "Azalea". I remember at the time looking at the two, the rudders were near identical, shape of the swims, the depth of the counter etc. The knees to were the same. A big "draw" was the typical Uxbridge style "Tee stud" with shackle. As you can see from the profile she just looks like a Josher hull and with all the evidence of identical size parts its a bit of a strong coincidence.

 

judge from these:

 

 

 

 

 

Is it not just possible that this boat may have been built from boats that got bombed? ie FMC wooden motor "Rover" was blown in two in 1940, so was "Robin".

Edited October 10, 2012 by Laurence Hogg

[carlt]

Yes it looks very much like an Uxbridge boat to me.

 

The front end is right, also the rudder and skeg but the swim doesn't look as "shapely" as other Uxbridge motors I've seen though this may be the camera angle.

[AMModels]

Thanks for the photos Laurence another great set, do you think that it could be one of the bombed motors? I have information that Robin was sold to Ernie Thomas and he had her rebuilt as a shorter pleasure boat, but this was before I kept proper records of information sources plus I remember the Robin he had in his hire fleet which further muddies the water as far as my info goes.

 

Would it be possible to do a 'cut n shut' on a wooden motor if it was damaged as per Robin/Rover?

 

Im not an expert on wooden boat construction by any means but with my engineering head on does that scarf joint by the counter look normal? To me it looks a bit close to the counter/swim split and could be an easy failure point if dinked a few times. I would imagine that by design the joint would either be in the middle of a plank or maybe the join at swim and counter would run along two planks longitudinally.

 

Thanks for replying Carl I was hoping you as someone with intimate knowledge (not in the biblical sense) of Uxbridge craftsmanship could bring some light onto the shape and framing of the fore end, could the difference in swims be a process of a cut n shut job?

 

I know all this is speculation but it is fascinating, to me at least, to do this sort of thing. Plus its always good to see some more of Laurences collection, do you have many pics of Keays yard and were you around at that time taking them?

[pete harrison]

Thanks for the photos Laurence another great set, do you think that it could be one of the bombed motors? I have information that Robin was sold to Ernie Thomas and he had her rebuilt as a shorter pleasure boat, but this was before I kept proper records of information sources plus I remember the Robin he had in his hire fleet which further muddies the water as far as my info goes.

 

Would it be possible to do a 'cut n shut' on a wooden motor if it was damaged as per Robin/Rover?

F.M.C. Ltd. records state that the engines from ROBIN and ROVER were sold to Ernest Thomas after both boats were "destroyed by enemy action". There is no mention in the F.M.C. Ltd. "Boat Register" or their "Docking Book" that either of these damaged hulls were also sold to him.

[AMModels]

Is there any mention at all of the hulls Pete? Having seen pics of the damage it is feasible that some use was made of the parts still usable.

[Laurence Hogg]

In reply to Andy.

Some of this has already been said, I certainly think this is a rebuild of an earlier full length boat. Shortening a wooden boat is perfectly feasible and was done in many instances, FMC sold a lot to Ernie Thomas and some of these exchanges are recorded in the records as Pete has stated. Leighs also purchased s/h boats ie "Pat" is a ex Severner. Ernie Thomas's "Robin" was more likely a Severner or Stour lifter conversion, nothing on that boat indicates any fine lines at all, I am suprised you remember it in the fleet as the fleet was well dispersed by the mid 1970's.

One other thing which is in the picture is the towing hook visible on the port side, this is identical to one showing on a photo of "Robin" when working for FMC. None of the scarf joints look odd to me but what is odd is the two top planks on the port side finishing with 90 degree cuts well ahead of the counter block, to me that says "adapted",

One other "giveaway" is the one picture that shows the tiller pointing slightly upwards, a often overlooked trademark of Josher motors but present on many which have a unaltered Swans neck.

Edited October 11, 2012 by Laurence Hogg

[AMModels]

Unfortunately Laurence I was around in the early 70's and boats were my fascination even then, I remember the white tops and blacked hulls of calf heath marina (I think) with names like Robin, Falcon and some other bird names maybe coot??? IIRC they were at the really cheap and cheerful end of the market even then.

 

The joint I was looking at is in the first photo of the second lot you posted, where the new plank is joined to the old one it looks very close to where the swim begins and I would imagine that being a stress point in the wood, have I explained that enough to make sense? It may be normal I just thought I would ask. I see what you mean about the counter looking as if it got bolted onto a cut off boat wouldnt those planks usually have carried on and been jointed into the counter block in a similar manner to other joints?

 

Re the towing hook, when you look at the earlier picture of Joan II it looks like theyve got a towing bar which shaped round the stern, would the hook you mention have got in the way of that bar arrangement or could the hook be a later addition from 'stock' as it were?

 

Never mind on closer inspection you can see the dolly inside the towing bar on the original pic.

 

 

*Stock being whatever was lying around of course.

[Laurence Hogg]

Andy that scarf joint would be fine if steamed and bent, they have done exactly the same on the starboard side, interestingly that is a plank which would have suffered the most ice impact when towing. Posted below is a picture of "Robin" before the jerries altered her. Interestingly in the FMC dock record I have there are a number of boats "Sunk by enemy action", none are ever listed as docked again and some listed as sold. There are only two boats "Destroyed by enemy action", same hand writing referring to "Rover" & "Robin", why the difference? in the well known picture both sterns remain intact and the crews all got out, Pete has evidence of the sale of thir engines, so maybe the wrecks were sold for parts? Like any businessman if Ernie had got what he wanted maybe sell the remains again and get some of the money back, I would have done. BTW "Robin" and "Eagle" still exist from the ET hire fleet, there may be more as a boat came up on ebay last year identical to "Heron" but not named as such.

 

 

Edited to add: In the original picture of "Joan 2" you will note a block on the counter, this almost certainly had a hook on it which is the reason for the rail being round the stern and above the existing towing studs, this may have been an experiment mimicking the arrangement on larger tugs.

Also there is no tiller or swans neck visible, so sterring must be by another method, ie a wheel.

On the counter exterior you can see evidence that the counter is divided into three bands, having two centre guards, this is a feature of Uxbridge built boats.

Edited October 11, 2012 by Laurence Hogg

[AMModels]

Does the fact ET was a director in FMC give a clue to where the boats may have gone? It wouldnt be the first time a director has made hay out of a companies misfortune perhaps the engines were sold in situ and he got the hulls as well, as you say from the photos of the bomb damage the sterns survived relatively intact and depending on how the boats were damaged its not beyond the realms of possibility that one of the bows may have done too.

On Presidents site they state that Kildare was sunk at the same time, she went on to have a working future so possibly the motors weren't actually destroyed but were written off as so for tax reasons (maybe)

 

Thanks for the clarification on the shape of that plank, unless told so I would never have believed a single plank could have bent like that, shows the skills needed when building these boats.

 

I shall have to keep an eye open for those old hireboats can still see em clearly coming past us at the boat club heading up the shroppie.

[Laurence Hogg]

Does the fact ET was a director in FMC give a clue to where the boats may have gone? It wouldnt be the first time a director has made hay out of a companies misfortune perhaps the engines were sold in situ and he got the hulls as well, as you say from the photos of the bomb damage the sterns survived relatively intact and depending on how the boats were damaged its not beyond the realms of possibility that one of the bows may have done too.

On Presidents site they state that Kildare was sunk at the same time, she went on to have a working future so possibly the motors weren't actually destroyed but were written off as so for tax reasons (maybe)

 

Thanks for the clarification on the shape of that plank, unless told so I would never have believed a single plank could have bent like that, shows the skills needed when building these boats.

 

I shall have to keep an eye open for those old hireboats can still see em clearly coming past us at the boat club heading up the shroppie.

 

Andy there is no record in the FMC yard book of damage or sinking to Kildare, now that is odd. Kesworth is recorded as sunk by enemy action on the same page. Kildare is recorded as sold to ET in August 1948.

The "President" website no longer functions and seems to be completely corrupted http://nb-president.org.uk/

As there is doubt about these boats identities I would not rely on what the website said.

[AMModels]

http://oldsite.nb-president.org.uk/photo/photo17.php

 

Just for information this is the page where it was stated, Im not in my workshop where my books are so cannot have a look at the photo of this incident in case there is anything in the picture to suggest what they are claiming.

 

With President its usually best to take with a pinch of salt anything to do with boats real names.

 

Further to the speculation, the excellent Richard Thomas notes that Princess was given to ET after damage by enemy action in 1941, any idea what FMCs boat book says about that transaction.

Edited October 11, 2012 by AMModels

[Derek R.]

It's Alan Faulkner's little FMC booklet that carries the photograph of two loaded pairs having been bombed at what is claimed to be New Warwick Wharf on 1st November 1940. Boats shown are claimed to be ROBIN & KILDARE, ROVER & GRACE. Clearly seen is ROBIN's name, and probably ROVER. If KILDARE is the farthest boat it is definitely sunk and with cloths still in place though the front end cannot be seen, but ROBIN & ROVER - being the middle two - have sustained most of the damage. GRACE is mostly covered with debris.

 

Edited to add:

The PRESIDENT site seems to show KILDARE as being 6' 11" beam. Was it the bomb? Or shall we blame metrication.

Edited October 11, 2012 by Derek R.

[Laurence Hogg]

http://oldsite.nb-president.org.uk/photo/photo17.php

 

Just for information this is the page where it was stated, Im not in my workshop where my books are so cannot have a look at the photo of this incident in case there is anything in the picture to suggest what they are claiming.

 

With President its usually best to take with a pinch of salt anything to do with boats real names.

 

Further to the speculation, the excellent Richard Thomas notes that Princess was given to ET after damage by enemy action in 1941, any idea what FMCs boat book says about that transaction.

 

"Princess" became "Pilot" to my understanding. "Pilot" is recorded "sunk by enemy action", there is no other entry next to the name and as usual no further dockings.

 

The well known picture of the devastation it shows that "Rover" took the worst of the bomb hit and the back is clearly broken, "Robin" seems to be straight although its difficult to assess, neither of the buttys show any ID at all. I have not seen other photos of the scene but guess some exist.

Edited October 11, 2012 by Laurence Hogg

[AMModels]

Ah as I said I was referring to Richards website and he had it listed under Princess and I didnt make the connection to Pilot, mea culpa.

 

 

As an aside and not wishing to take the thread OT just how many boats were damaged in WW2 in total and what happened/where did it happen, anyone know?

[pete harrison]

"Princess" became "Pilot" to my understanding. "Pilot" is recorded "sunk by enemy action", there is no other entry next to the name and as usual no further dockings.

PRINCESS was renamed PILOT following its conversion from a steamer to a motor in 1924. Although PILOT is recorded as "sunk by enemy action" its disposal details are not listed in either the F.M.C. Ltd. "Boat Register" or the F.M.C. Ltd. "Docking Book". This boat was however gauged B.C.N. 2105 (16 July 1941) as PILOT 3 for Ernest Thomas, Walsall and this table is later crossed out and marked as "cancelled - cut up 24/02/1954".

 

edit for spelling

Edited October 11, 2012 by pete harrison

[Paul H]

According to Pete Boyce's (james Loader) website Joan II was built by Worseys in 1936 and logically Joan must be older. So both date from before the wartime sinkings of Rover and Robin. That is not to say that ironwork wasn't used from an old FMC boat but as Joan II was apparantly built to the design of Leonard Leigh's son who had seagoing experience as a radical new design of tug I can't believe that it was a cut and shut.

Paul

[Laurence Hogg]

According to Pete Boyce's (james Loader) website Joan II was built by Worseys in 1936 and logically Joan must be older. So both date from before the wartime sinkings of Rover and Robin. That is not to say that ironwork wasn't used from an old FMC boat but as Joan II was apparantly built to the design of Leonard Leigh's son who had seagoing experience as a radical new design of tug I can't believe that it was a cut and shut.

Paul

Cant find this website Paul have you a link?

Even if the info is correct having the two boats side by side with so many common features raises the question of whether Joan 2 was a rebuild? Given the fines lines of "James Loader" "Joan 2" is relativly plain, the idea of having a new type of tug certainly tallies with what you can see in the original pic as a unconventional stern.

[hecla777]

Laurence I think Paul is pointing to this web page :-

http://www.phobox.com/boats_w/JAMES_LOADER.htm

 

if you scroll down there is a further link to a Word document which is a 'brief history of the tug' in this Joan II is described as being built by Worsey in wood and launched on 16th April 1936.

 

Regards

 

Martin O'Keeffe