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Grand Union C C Co Ltd wartime livery


Laurence Hogg

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The original picture has a nice level of colours right through the full range when viewed with a histgram output. I have applied a even level of increased saturation to the image which brings up all the colours evenly.

 

Not photographic evidence, but I am aware of a number of water colours by two different artists made during the war while waiting for loading which show a red panel, not a maroon one. December 2010 Canals Rivers and Boats has one, I think it was the Winter 2010 Narrow Boat had another and the forthcoming Narrow Boat should have yet another. The white lining seems to be a variable feast. There are plenty of pictures which show only a top line, probably more than show all four sides of the panel.

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I am aware the Skinner's (and others) sheeted up their cabins to protect from extremes of weather, and those sheets in that shot may have extended a little over some slack boards, as it does appear they are loaded, maybe waiting to unload, or maybe there's a stoppage - guesswork.

 

Mason's is a good coach paint. If you want fade, apply Dulux.

 

Clearly a hot day, so why is the young lady in a coat? I know - she likes it - her favourite coat.

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This picture is the only colour one so far found showing the austerity livery, it is a genuine colour photo not a hand coloured one (not like the ones which show greenish GU early livery). Although pretty battered this small Woolwich has plenty of evidence to show. The boat is probably "Hyperion" as she was sold to S E Barlow's.

 

gallery_5000_522_155151.jpg

 

The motor is actually my boat Capricorn which Pete Harrison has told me was in use by SE Barlow in June 1948 and paired with Raleigh - possibly as a change boat.

 

I agree that it is unlikely that an austerity drive would lead to the ditching of stocks of the "coronation" red paint in order to buy in a maroon but stranger things have happened. Perhaps it was just that the paint available in wartime could not be supplied to the same specification and iwas slightly duller - hence people calling it maroon as a way of differentiating it. It is also clear that the boats were very run down after the war especially those used by "them girls."

 

The red white and blue British Waterways livery (now sported by Chertsey) was a short-lived stop gap in 1947/1948 used by Bulls Bridge until the yellow and blue livery had been decided on.

 

Paul

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Sam Yates, who did the painting at Whitebirk, would knock up his own colours using white lead and stainers, even for companies whose boats they painted regularly. I would imagine the same happened at boatyards on narrow canals, so the actual colour would vary from day to day depending upon the exact mix, the conditions, and the varnish. Buying ready-mixed paint was just too expensive. Below is a representation of the colours he used, though the blue has not come out all that well through the various digital conversions. The red and green are not too bad, though, on my computer. Full details, with comparative modern colours, can be found in the book we wrote: Brightwork. Copies can be bought on board Kennet (at Burnley on Saturday and Clayton-le-Moors next weekend) at £10 paper back or £15 hard back.

 

5753954411_cdb5c3c19c_z.jpg

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As one of the guilty boats, we chose Fulbourne's wartime livery on the basis of the Colours of the Cut drawings then featured in Waterways World. The actual colour was matched fairly closely to Sculptor, on the basis that a museum boat ought to be correct.

 

Perhaps that faith was a little misplaced. But I suspect that the current prevalence of maroon may owe something ro these two sources.

I saw SCULPTOR whilst it was being delivered after being restored by Ian Kemp and photographed it a few days at Stoke Bruerne as a term of reference for the painting of BADSEY. My own view is that the livery as painted in 1987 by Ian Kemp was very close to being true, and the cabin was red not maroon as it is now. I am afraid maroon makes no sense to me at all.

 

The Colours of the Cut series published in Waterways World magazine between November 1987 and June 1994 is peppered with inaccuracies that Edward Paget-Tomlinson was happy to accept. By his own admission many of his reproductions were based on grey scale interpretation, and some were influenced by popular opinion of that time, hence the G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd. 'Coronation' livery having the wrong address (20 Bucklersbury instead of Port of London Building). Although this was discussed at length amongst researchers at the time little or nothing was published in Waterways World magazine to correct these mistakes. Unfortunately the re-publication of these liveries, mistakes and all, in the book Colours of the Cut has only helped to perpetuate incorrect liveries, even though the people publishing the book were made aware.

 

We have a black and white photo of Jack James on Badsey with GUCCCo wartime livery circa 1940's - it shows a White/cream line on all four sides.

Some boats were painted with the single 'white' line whilst some were painted with the 'white' line to "all four sides". I do not know why and it is certainly not exclusive to one type of boat. I painted BADSEY with a single 'white' line as it was unusual at that time (1988), and I used a wartime photograph of ASCOT as a term of reference. Had I have access to your photograph I may have painted BADSEY as it is now.

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The red white and blue British Waterways livery (now sported by Chertsey) was a short-lived stop gap in 1947/1948 used by Bulls Bridge until the yellow and blue livery had been decided on.

 

Paul

 

Hate to tell you this Paul but the Blue and Yellow (or yellow and blue as yellow was the prominent colour) was the next livery chosen by GUCCCo, already used as the house colours for the Grand Union (Shipping) Company, "Regents line" ships.

Some boats were repainted for the coronation and the Festival of Britain previously in true patriotic colours and were photographed by the press, pictures exist (possibly film too) in some of the press archives.

Stoke Bruerne certainly had some of the colour pictures in the early 1980's.

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the cabin was red not maroon as it is now.

 

Pete, I'm fairly sure you did not mean that the colour BADSEY is now, is maroon?

Did you?

Masons call it 'Deep Red'.

I like deep red but I don't like maroon - it was the colour of the school uniform I was forced to wear for 5 years.

In choosing the colours for BADSEY, having read all the views of those with a view, I thought logically.

The year BADSEY was built for GUCCCo we had 3 kings, an abdication, a death, and a coronation. Then came the World War. The country would have been awash with red, white and blue paint and with the Union Flag everywhere. If I was asked at that time to come up with the cheapest way to uniformly paint a fleet of boats, I guessed that I may have chosen the colours of the Union Jack (that's the RN version of the flag which has darker bolder red and blue to allow for sun and salt bleaching them out.) Used constantly in all weathers until 1948 and it is my guess you would have something close to the colour in the picture. In other words, I can imagine a colour transformation which started Deep Red, but may have looked like maroon after a few years as it faded to a dark pink.

Anyway, I like it.

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Pete, I'm fairly sure you did not mean that the colour BADSEY is now, is maroon?

Did you?

Masons call it 'Deep Red'.

I like deep red but I don't like maroon - it was the colour of the school uniform I was forced to wear for 5 years.

In choosing the colours for BADSEY, having read all the views of those with a view, I thought logically.

The year BADSEY was built for GUCCCo we had 3 kings, an abdication, a death, and a coronation. Then came the World War. The country would have been awash with red, white and blue paint and with the Union Flag everywhere. If I was asked at that time to come up with the cheapest way to uniformly paint a fleet of boats, I guessed that I may have chosen the colours of the Union Jack (that's the RN version of the flag which has darker bolder red and blue to allow for sun and salt bleaching them out.) Used constantly in all weathers until 1948 and it is my guess you would have something close to the colour in the picture. In other words, I can imagine a colour transformation which started Deep Red, but may have looked like maroon after a few years as it faded to a dark pink.

Anyway, I like it.

No Ian, Pete was complaining about 'Sculptor'. (Correctly) 'Sculptor' was incorrectly painted last time, for a number of reasons which I am not going to comment on in this forum. We know it is wrong and when it becomes necessary to repaint it again, hopefully we will be able to revert to the Ian Kemp colouring.

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I saw SCULPTOR whilst it was being delivered after being restored by Ian Kemp and photographed it a few days at Stoke Bruerne as a term of reference for the painting of BADSEY. My own view is that the livery as painted in 1987 by Ian Kemp was very close to being true, and the cabin was red not maroon as it is now. I am afraid maroon makes no sense to me at all.

The above describes how SCULPTOR was red (and not maroon) in 1987. BADSEY was subsequently painted by me in 1988/9 more or less the same as SCULPTOR (I used a slightly darker red and a creamy white). BADSEY remained painted as such until Phil Speight repainted it 'British Waterways' blue and yellow in about 1997. I have seen BADSEY fairly recently and know it to be painted in the colours of the Union flag, i.e. red, white and blue - although as you say these colours are still open to limited interpretation (but in my opinion does not stretch to maroon / 'sky' blue).

 

No Ian, Pete was complaining about 'Sculptor'.

I prefer to think I am stating facts rather than complaining. In 1987 I found SCULPTOR to be inspirational.

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We know it is wrong

 

Oh I hate to think anyone feels a colour is 'wrong'.

If you like it for your boat, it must be right.

Unless you are a museum that seeks to teach the public historical facts.

But even then, history is usually what whoever gets to write it decides.

And just in case anyone thinks I would dare to challenge Pete about canalboat facts, I wouldn't dream of doing so.

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Right folks, now lets put the cat really in amongst the pigeons. Still taken from an obscure Pathe film, believed to be wartime and showing what is almost certainly a large Woolwich sporting a truly unconventional livery. Note the Fenchurch St address so we are in the Red. White and Blue era, but what livery is this?

 

gallery_5000_522_191584.jpg

 

And just to note that yet another variation has popped up in Cyril Arrapof's collection, I will scan that and post later.

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I have read with interest all the comments about Sculptors paint work. I'm the person who arranged for it to be repainted it was done by proffesional boat painters to a very high standard and they matched the paint to what was already on there. The only wrong colour was the stern end bands which should have been cream and not white. Time and memory play tricks who rembers what colour, colours change with weathering. I no longer look after Sculptor as I got fed up with all the politics and nit picking and suggested somebody younger should be persuaded to look after her this hasn't happend. I'll stick to researching all my boatman ancestors if they could have read what is sometimes discussed on this forum they would have laughed there heads off. Right got that off me chest I'll disappear into the back ground again.

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I have read with interest all the comments about Sculptors paint work. I'm the person who arranged for it to be repainted it was done by proffesional boat painters to a very high standard and they matched the paint to what was already on there. The only wrong colour was the stern end bands which should have been cream and not white. Time and memory play tricks who rembers what colour, colours change with weathering. I no longer look after Sculptor as I got fed up with all the politics and nit picking and suggested somebody younger should be persuaded to look after her this hasn't happend. I'll stick to researching all my boatman ancestors if they could have read what is sometimes discussed on this forum they would have laughed there heads off. Right got that off me chest I'll disappear into the back ground again.

Lorna,

 

My words are not a personal attack, I'm afraid I can't be bothered with that sort of thing nowadays. I have never questioned the present standard of SCULPTOR's current paintwork which looks fine to me, I am only questioning whether maroon has any historical relevance. I also appreciate that SCULPTOR has recently been painted the same colour as it has been for several years, and to my knowledge it changed from Ian Kemp's red to The Canal Museum's maroon in the mid 1990's.

 

As you say I am sure the boaters would wonder what on earth we are all getting so bothered about :captain:

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it's of little consequence really, but the inside of the SB engine room door on Sculptor is currently painted in the Mason's Deep Red colour (unless she has been painted since). We checked it against our strike card when she was at Brinklow 6 months ago.

 

The outside of the cabin was a slightly different tone, but still a deep red colour. Maybe effected by the weather, who knows?!

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Hi Pete

I didn't take it as a personal attack like you just stating the facts, as I knew who had painted it last, and to Kitman the paint on the inside of Sculptors engine room doors is the same as the rest of the cabin as they were done at the same time and yes it has weathered.

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Hi Pete

I didn't take it as a personal attack like you just stating the facts, as I knew who had painted it last, and to Kitman the paint on the inside of Sculptors engine room doors is the same as the rest of the cabin as they were done at the same time and yes it has weathered.

Ah, thanks for clearing that up. I said to the one of the boat builders here that it was all deep red, just cabin was weathered so it looked a bit different from the strike card.

 

In your face Dave Ross! you owes me a fiver!! ;)

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  • 7 months later...

If thats a GUCCCo running block there may be a number stamped in somewhere, their kit when new carried the boats fleet number. The original running gear was the darker shade of blue and remained so throughout to my belief.

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I think that it is possible that there is lots of stuff without fleet numbers on. This could be because it was a replacement or stolen etc. Where might you look for a number on this? As to the colour - if this was issued as new it would be 5,6,7 years old by the war, why not be a different blue - so, if not GUCC who? What ever it is it is old and original - original what I have no idea.

As to fleet numbers - did Buckby cans have numbers, chimneys, pigeons boxes, funnels? I do have Masthead lights some with some without...

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