110 volt electrics

[Ex- Member]

I'm fitting a Kubota engine with a 110 volt generator output. It will mainly be required to charge batteries via a

Sterling Power, 12v 50amp Pro Charge N Battery Charger, or similar make. (Recommendations welcome)

 

 

Although could power any 110 volt appliance if so required in the future.

 

 

I'l wire one of these sockets directly from the generator for the charger.

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=271009510719#ht_640wt_1037

 

Is this ok to do? does 110 volt supply require fusing trips or breakers? <br class="Apple-interchange-newline">

[jonathanA]

obvious thought...

 

would you connect up any other 12v or 240v system without fuses or breakers ?

 

I would have thought it sensible (!!!) to include some sort of breaker/fuse/trip to protect both the generator and of course more importantly prevent any overloading/fire risk to the wiring supplying the 110v device(s) Bear in mind that the current at 110v will be about double that of the equivalent mains device, so cables may need to be a bit heavier and fuses/trips sized accordingly.

 

I think the device your showing is an isolator so would not provide any protection against overloading, shorts etc.

 

I have the 20A version of the stirling pro and it seems to work just fine - presume you've checked to make sure its input voltage can be 110V.

 

Others who are more knowledgable will doubtless be able to advise on what the safety related issues are (earthing, RCDs etc)although in theory if the output is centre tapped to earth (as industrial 110 transformers are) then it will be inherently safer.

 

hope that helps a bit

[Ex- Member]

obvious thought...

 

would you connect up any other 12v or 240v system without fuses or breakers ?

 

I would have thought it sensible (!!!) to include some sort of breaker/fuse/trip to protect both the generator and of course more importantly prevent any overloading/fire risk to the wiring supplying the 110v device(s) Bear in mind that the current at 110v will be about double that of the equivalent mains device, so cables may need to be a bit heavier and fuses/trips sized accordingly.

 

I think the device your showing is an isolator so would not provide any protection against overloading, shorts etc.

 

I have the 20A version of the stirling pro and it seems to work just fine - presume you've checked to make sure its input voltage can be 110V.

 

Others who are more knowledgable will doubtless be able to advise on what the safety related issues are (earthing, RCDs etc)although in theory if the output is centre tapped to earth (as industrial 110 transformers are) then it will be inherently safer.

 

hope that helps a bit

 

Hence the question

 

The problem is I can't seem to find fuses RCD breakers associated with 110 volt and not sure weather breakers work via 110 volt.

 

The sterling Pro at 50 amp definitely accepts 110 volt, there are others that do also, Victron I think, but if anyone knows of others that would help, as their quite pricey. I'm going for the Outback controller for the solar panels, so a cheaper standard charger that accepts 110v will help offset the cost of the Outback.

 

 

[jonathanA]

Ok,

 

You can buy '110v' RCD's and breakers but they look remarkably similar to 240v ones - becuase they usually are the same. (the ones I've seen anyway)

 

for RCD's the voltage is irrevelevant its the difference in currents flowing through the 'live' and 'neutral' thats makes them work. Trips/MCBS work on current and so again the voltage doesn't matter. you could use MCBs on 12v if they were rated for Dc. clealry its not good to mix all those voltages in the same fuse board/distribution board and all should be labelled clearly.

 

I'm not comfortable suggesting what other considerations there might be in terms of safety and where/how/if an rcd should be included, so hopefully someone else may offer an opinion, but I would think looking at 240v arrangements like this would be a good start.

[Ex- Member]

Ok,

 

You can buy '110v' RCD's and breakers but they look remarkably similar to 240v ones - becuase they usually are the same. (the ones I've seen anyway)

 

for RCD's the voltage is irrevelevant its the difference in currents flowing through the 'live' and 'neutral' thats makes them work. Trips/MCBS work on current and so again the voltage doesn't matter. you could use MCBs on 12v if they were rated for Dc. clealry its not good to mix all those voltages in the same fuse board/distribution board and all should be labelled clearly.

 

I'm not comfortable suggesting what other considerations there might be in terms of safety and where/how/if an rcd should be included, so hopefully someone else may offer an opinion, but I would think looking at 240v arrangements like this would be a good start.

 

Hi Johnathan

 

Thanks for that, I wasn't sure about the relevance of voltage with breakers RCD's etc so I'll follow that route now, would 16 amp suffice for a 50amp charger would you think?

 

I would probably need a breaker between generator and socket and possibly between socket and charger. I'm sure some more advice will be forthcoming.

 

Please!

 

 

 

[Serenity Malc]

Yello,

 

As has been said, RCD's etc work by detecting an inbalance of current on a circuit between live and neutral ... they're not voltage dependant, but DC devices need bigger contacts to over come arching problems.

 

The inherent safety of 110V relies on a 55V to centre tapped earth principle .... how that relates within a 110V genny and fuseboard arrangement I haven't a clue.

 

Maybe it would be more cost effective and possibly safer to replace the 110V generator with a more conventional voltage ?

 

Good luck.... Malc.

[Ex- Member]

Hi Malc

 

My original plan was to attach a 240 volt generator,but some one suggested as there's battery chargers available that will run from 110 volts it might pay to keep the whole thing as it is. I thought It would make sense and would keep it all nice and compact.

 

We actually had the engine running today, an engineer friend came today, set it up and got it running, no problems with engine at all. I took a volt reading from the gen unit and it registered 140 volts, that's direct from the generator. Unfortunately I only had a cheap tester so couldn't glean the amps output. The generator is a very small unit in comparison to a 240 unit and if it doesn't put out enough amps, I might well have to consider a 240 generator, problem seems to be is 240 volt generators tend to run at 3,000 RPM where as this Kubota engine runs at 3,600 RPM, I could rig a belt driven alternator at 2 to 1 ratio or 1.5 to 1 which would easily power a 90 amp alternator I already have. The engineer has found some info on the 110 volt generator though, so if the amps are too low to run a decent charger, I might go for a belt driven link with a 90 amp alternator. so It's a bit suck and see at the moment.

 

at least the engine runs well though, so I still have options.

[Arthur Brown]

First you need to look at the proposed 110v appliances and check that they will run on 60HZ without that you are in the mire.

Is the generator internally wired for 110v out or 55 - 0 - 55? With 110 the circuits are the same as 240v MCBs and RCDs It's a small genny so maybe it will not drive much and maybe a 5a MCB will be all you need. If the output is centre tapped then you should use double pole switches and breakers and break L1 and L2 -this is more complicated, (but otherwise an appliance could blow the fuse in the plug or breaker then be live to the other line voltage).

[Ex- Member]

First you need to look at the proposed 110v appliances and check that they will run on 60HZ without that you are in the mire.

Is the generator internally wired for 110v out or 55 - 0 - 55? With 110 the circuits are the same as 240v MCBs and RCDs It's a small genny so maybe it will not drive much and maybe a 5a MCB will be all you need. If the output is centre tapped then you should use double pole switches and breakers and break L1 and L2 -this is more complicated, (but otherwise an appliance could blow the fuse in the plug or breaker then be live to the other line voltage).

 

Hi Arthur

 

The only appliance would be the battery charger, either stirling or victron, these are pricey though and if the generator is low output then not worth bothering with, I need to get 50 to 60 amps charge to make it worth wile running the engine. Someone is getting back to me when they find out the output of this 110v generator, he believes it's 32 amp, but needs to check.

 

32 amp probably wouldn't be enough to run a battery charger required to put out 50amps for charging, I'm not an electrician though, but it doesn't add up logically. So I'm now thinking of uilising the 12 v alternator as it's brand new and would be a lot cheaper to set up as an alternator charger rather than buying a 110v charger and plugs sockets etc costing 4 to 5 hundred quid. I would just be looking at some bracketry pulleys drive belt, I also have some high quality 18mm laminated resin plywood to use as a base to set the engine and alternator on, a 3 inch pulley on the engine shaft would run the alternator 5400 rpm around prime revvs for charging. As I have 500 watts of solar this sysem is basically designed to give a boost to batteries should they get around 50% SOC so not used as a full charging regime, more of a back up system.

 

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

Hi Arthur

 

The only appliance would be the battery charger, either stirling or victron, these are pricey though and if the generator is low output then not worth bothering with, I need to get 50 to 60 amps charge to make it worth wile running the engine. Someone is getting back to me when they find out the output of this 110v generator, he believes it's 32 amp, but needs to check.

 

32 amp probably wouldn't be enough to run a battery charger required to put out 50amps for charging, I'm not an electrician though, but it doesn't add up logically. So I'm now thinking of uilising the 12 v alternator as it's brand new and would be a lot cheaper to set up as an alternator charger rather than buying a 110v charger and plugs sockets etc costing 4 to 5 hundred quid. I would just be looking at some bracketry pulleys drive belt, I also have some high quality 18mm laminated resin plywood to use as a base to set the engine and alternator on, a 3 inch pulley on the engine shaft would run the alternator 5400 rpm around prime revvs for charging. As I have 500 watts of solar this sysem is basically designed to give a boost to batteries should they get around 50% SOC so not used as a full charging regime, more of a back up system.

If your genny has a 15A output at 110 volts it should be enough for your 50A charger, you may even get away with less, but the if its to small the inrush may collapse the voltage output from the generator, it will only take about 7 amps to run it.

[jonathanA]

Hi Arthur

 

The only appliance would be the battery charger, either stirling or victron, these are pricey though and if the generator is low output then not worth bothering with, I need to get 50 to 60 amps charge to make it worth wile running the engine. Someone is getting back to me when they find out the output of this 110v generator, he believes it's 32 amp, but needs to check.

 

32 amp probably wouldn't be enough to run a battery charger required to put out 50amps for charging, I'm not an electrician though, but it doesn't add up logically. So I'm now thinking of uilising the 12 v alternator as it's brand new and would be a lot cheaper to set up as an alternator charger rather than buying a 110v charger and plugs sockets etc costing 4 to 5 hundred quid. I would just be looking at some bracketry pulleys drive belt, I also have some high quality 18mm laminated resin plywood to use as a base to set the engine and alternator on, a 3 inch pulley on the engine shaft would run the alternator 5400 rpm around prime revvs for charging. As I have 500 watts of solar this sysem is basically designed to give a boost to batteries should they get around 50% SOC so not used as a full charging regime, more of a back up system.

 

32A at 110v makes it about a 3.5KVA (i.e 3.5kw) - so enough to boil an electric kettle thats quite a reasonable sized generator, I'm doubtful its that big, from what you say, but without seeing it or any info its impossible to know. look to see if there is any manufactuers plate which might give details like voltage, frequency (50 or 60Hz), rating in amps or 'VA'

 

Just bear in mind you don't need 50 amps at 110 volts for your 50A charger. Thats 50 amps at 12 volts so at 110V its something like a tenth of that so nearer 5 or 6 amps at 110V.

 

As a simple thing it doesn't make a lot of sense ot run a 110V generator to run a charger to put 12v into your batteries you might as well just use your 90A alternator on the same engine instead. There might be an argument about the stirling/victron chargers being intelligent and therefore better able to get your batteries back to approaching 100% SOC than a simple alternator, but I'm not getting into that as there is thread after thread on the battery charging/chargers on here...

 

I have to say pulleys, brackets, plywood it all sounds a bit heath robinson to me, so I would keep it simple and just stick with the 12v alternator

 

good luck sounds interesting though.

[ditchcrawler]

 

As a simple thing it doesn't make a lot of sense ot run a 110V generator to run a charger to put 12v into your batteries you might as well just use your 90A alternator on the same engine instead. There might be an argument about the stirling/victron chargers being intelligent and therefore better able to get your batteries back to approaching 100% SOC than a simple alternator, but I'm not getting into that as there is thread after thread on the battery charging/chargers on here...

 

I have to say pulleys, brackets, plywood it all sounds a bit heath robinson to me, so I would keep it simple and just stick with the 12v alternator

 

good luck sounds interesting though.

similar to

[Arthur Brown]

From an earlier post of yours J. "kubota OC60-E2 diesel engine 4.2 Kw 5.6 HP".

If it's this engine then the engine outputs 4.2Kw so the generator could well output 2.1Kw, but you need some evidence (ie documents) or experimental figures.

 

Get the engine running with a decent silencer, check the output voltage at some different loads, Yers you will need to measure AC current and as it is at 110v (nominal) then its 9amps per Kw. You will need to have some resistive loads like electric heaters or tungsten lamps and a safe method of connecting then and each time measuring the volts and current at the generator terminals.

 

In simple theory you should get a high voltage (like the 140v open circuit volts you mention) til there is 5 - 10% rated load, then a relatively steady voltage to about 95% load, then a rapid fall off as you pass 110% rated load.

 

The other issue will be that a 1K generator MAY not start a 1K load.

 

There are several things you will need to try to see whether they work! Among those is the thermal performance. The genny may put out 2Kw but overheat after a while so the long term rated power may be less than the plate figure.

 

As it's a 3600 RPM engine the output will be 60Hx which will colour your choice of appliance. (some chargers don't like 53Hz!) Do you have the facility to reduce the speed to 50Hz? -Though this will reduce the power output.

 

Yes a more standard voltage of 12 or 24 according to your DC batteries, could mean taking off the 110 generator and belt driving a marine alternator. 2Kw would be about 100amps at 12v, which should work from a 4.2Kw engine. But then there is the one off cost of special pulleys and an alternator mounting system.

[Ex- Member]

Thanks chaps, some really useful info for me to chew on, I do have a photo of he 110v generator bit here.

 

 

 

There's no writing on the outer or inner casing, strange looking thing.

 

If it does put out 2kw then I'll definitely keep it and run a charger capable of accepting 110v.

 

This unit was affixed to the engine when I bought it, the engine ran a mobile traffic light control unit and was housed in a trailer, we found a length of 3 core cable in the loom labelled cooling fan, so the engine was being externally cooled by a 110v fan, I assume through the trailer box.

 

The 90amp alternator I have is brand new and cost me 12 quid so a good bargain and available to use. Pulleys are quite cheap and the local fabricator owes me a couple of favours, so bracketry and metal isn't going to cost me much, It wont be as good as the linky ditchcrawler showed, but it would neat and tidy and not look like some quick bodge up

 

I'll just have to wait the result of the 110v unit already fitted, the chap who can get the info can only access it from work, so can't find out till Monday.

 

the other thing I have to sort out is engine control panel, there's 6 different sensor wires O/P Temp Oil Temp etc, fortunately the chap can also get the wiring diagram for the engine loom, I'll need to either make up a new panel, or try to find a universal panel I can utilise. It's a great wee engine though so I'm determined to get it set up and running even if a bit Heath Robinson and I can get 50 to 60 amps + into the batteries on demand.

 

Thanks again guys, any more suggestions welcome.

[Arthur Brown]

One clue might be the size of the wire from the alternator windings. A 32A alternator will use fat wire.

[Ex- Member]

One clue might be the size of the wire from the alternator windings. A 32A alternator will use fat wire.

 

Hi Arthur

 

The only wires coming from the windings is 2 x 110v 3 core Brown Blue Yellow/Green One wire for the cooling fan spurred off early in the loom. The wires are not fat, just like the standard cable on a 110v drill or saw. Both 110v wires are the same size.

 

You can see the fuse blocks in the bottom right corner of the 2nd photo.

 

 

 

Edited July 28, 2012 by Julynian

[Arthur Brown]

IMO waiting for your friend to find the original specification is the best thing. If it's a 60 Hz genset at 110v then a Kw needs 9 amps, are the output wires scaled to suit 9amps or more?

 

Remember that each lamp in a traffic light is about 20 watts so a big setup would not need 1Kw It may be a 2K gen but unless the wiring and load tests confirm this ....

Edited July 28, 2012 by Arthur Brown

[Ex- Member]

IMO waiting for your friend to find the original specification is the best thing. If it's a 60 Hz genset at 110v then a Kw needs 9 amps, are the output wires scaled to suit 9amps or more?

 

Remember that each lamp in a traffic light is about 20 watts so a big setup would not need 1Kw It may be a 2K gen but unless the wiring and load tests confirm this ....

 

Hi Arthur

 

Regardless of the 110v generator out put power I'm not going to bother with it. a decent 110v charger and all the other bits required will cost around £500, silly money really which I would struggle to find anyway. So I'm going to rig up the 90 amp alternator, All I'll need is a couple of pulleys fan belt and some made up brackets and cable which I already have, so it'll cost well under £100

 

I started to remove the 110v generator, nuts were really tight. I'm not sure if it's on a tapered shaft, but I couldn't prize it off. I could see the key way when the nut was removed. I didn't want to go bashing it with a hammer so will leave it until I know how best to remove it. the centre nut has been removed + the 4 outer allen bolts and 4 small bolts around the outer side. I'm guessing there's some kind of pulling device/tool for removing it.

 

The alternator is a basic Bosch 90 amp, his particular one for a Ford Mondeo.

 

Making up brackets and adjuster should be quite straight forward.

 

Another question for anyone who knows. I have a sterling 12v battery charger alternator charger connected to the engines main alternator. Can I wire in this second alternator as they will never run at the same time?

 

Also the alternator has this 6 groove pulley, are these type pulleys & belts more efficient than regular V toothed belts as I could simply fit a grooved pulley direct to the engine.

 

 

 

Edited July 29, 2012 by Julynian

[Timleech]

 

 

Also the alternator has this 6 groove pulley, are these type pulleys & belts more efficient than regular V toothed belts as I could simply fit a grooved pulley direct to the engine.

 

Yes they are better than ordinary Vee belts (not sure about strictly being more efficient), but alignment and tension are more critical. They come in a variety of forms, yours will almost certainly be K section but you'll need to establish that for certain.

 

Tim

[Ex- Member]

Yes they are better than ordinary Vee belts (not sure about strictly being more efficient), but alignment and tension are more critical. They come in a variety of forms, yours will almost certainly be K section but you'll need to establish that for certain.

 

Tim

 

Thanks Tim

 

Just looked these type belts up, they all seem to be long length. Think I'll go for the standard 12mm toothed belt, means buying 2 pulleys but they're pretty cheap.

 

 

 

Edited July 29, 2012 by Julynian