Single handling a Dutch barge

[ditchcrawler]

If I remember correctly in the 3 days that we were with Tam and Di no one got off the boat in locks, a loop was just dropped over the bollard going in and flicked off before leaving. Unlike us ditch crawlers Tam's lines are not attached to the boat and taken round a bollard and back to the boat. I have been on another boat in France and have witnessed what can easily happen with a rope jamming if you do try to do it "Narrowboat style".

[George94]

Dutch barges are much easier to handle than broad-beams because of the gunwale. It has always amazed me that people should build broad-beams when they could build barges. Why saddle yourself with the design restrictions that are necessary for a narrow-boat when you don't have to? It's not as though they look nice, either.

[blackrose]

Dutch barges are much easier to handle than broad-beams because of the gunwale. It has always amazed me that people should build broad-beams when they could build barges. Why saddle yourself with the design restrictions that are necessary for a narrow-boat when you don't have to? It's not as though they look nice, either.

 

 

The main reason is simply because because narrowboat-style broad beam barges are much cheaper to build than Dutch-style barges and as such they offer the most economic form of new build steel barge in terms of £/m2. Of course you could have wide gunwales on a widebeam, but then you'd lose internal space.

 

I agree they don't look anywhere near as nice as a well built Dutch-style barge, but in my opinion most narrowboats don't look very nice either. Narrowboats are built narrow simply because they are able to navigate the waterways of England and Wales, not because of their aesthetic value. In that sense they are more functional than beautiful, rather like a NB-style widebeam which also serves a purpose.

 

Where I will disagree with you slightly is about Dutch barges being easier to handle. By your rationale Dutch barges would be easier to handle than narrowboats too? Or perhaps not because of their extra size and weight?

 

Anyway, I have steered a couple of Dutch barges (with crew) and perhaps with crew they are easier to handle, but this thread was about single-handing a barge and in my experience my NB-style widebeam is much easier to handle on my own. At 57ft x 12ft it turns within its own length (without the BT) and I've never seen a Dutch-style barge which can do that. If you can handle a narrowboat on your own, then relatively quickly you could also handle a NB-style widebeam, but I'm not sure if the average single-handed NB owner would be happy to step aboard a Dutch barge and go though locks on their own.

Edited August 23, 2012 by blackrose

[FadeToScarlet]

Dutch barges are much easier to handle than broad-beams because of the gunwale. It has always amazed me that people should build broad-beams when they could build barges. Why saddle yourself with the design restrictions that are necessary for a narrow-boat when you don't have to? It's not as though they look nice, either.

 

Maximum interior space, I suspect, as well as what Blackrose said about cost.

[George94]

The main reason is simply because because narrowboat-style broad beam barges are much cheaper to build than Dutch-style barges and as such they offer the most economic form of new build steel barge in terms of £/m2. Of course you could have wide gunwales on a widebeam, but then you'd lose internal space.

 

I agree they don't look anywhere near as nice as a well built Dutch-style barge, but in my opinion most narrowboats don't look very nice either. Narrowboats are built narrow simply because they are able to navigate the waterways of England and Wales, not because of their aesthetic value. In that sense they are more functional than beautiful, rather like a NB-style widebeam which also serves a purpose.

 

Where I will disagree with you slightly is about Dutch barges being easier to handle. By your rationale Dutch barges would be easier to handle than narrowboats too? Or perhaps not because of their extra size and weight?

 

Anyway, I have steered a couple of Dutch barges (with crew) and perhaps with crew they are easier to handle, but this thread was about single-handing a barge and in my experience my NB-style widebeam is much easier to handle on my own. At 57ft x 12ft it turns within its own length (without the BT) and I've never seen a Dutch-style barge which can do that. If you can handle a narrowboat on your own, then relatively quickly you could also handle a NB-style widebeam, but I'm not sure if the average single-handed NB owner would be happy to step aboard a Dutch barge and go though locks on their own.

 

 

Well, I won't argue that a barge hull will cost more, but not much more because the hull is actually quite a small proportion of the total cost of a properly fitted-out and equipped boat. Of course, if you do the fitting out yourself it will be more of an issue.

 

As for space, the area under the (wide) gunwale tends to be used for all sorts of useful things, like book-cases, tanks, wine-racks, firewood stores, cupboards, etc. On a barge, space is at much less of a premium than on a NB, so losing a little bit of space three or four feet above the floor is not a big issue.

 

I would find it much more difficult to single-hand my boat if it didn't have a gunwale. However, if my boat was much bigger, I wouldn't want to single-hand it anyway, and I certainly wouldn't want to single-hand an 80ft WB.

[blackrose]

Well, I won't argue that a barge hull will cost more, but not much more because the hull is actually quite a small proportion of the total cost of a properly fitted-out and equipped boat. Of course, if you do the fitting out yourself it will be more of an issue.

 

As for space, the area under the (wide) gunwale tends to be used for all sorts of useful things, like book-cases, tanks, wine-racks, firewood stores, cupboards, etc. On a barge, space is at much less of a premium than on a NB, so losing a little bit of space three or four feet above the floor is not a big issue.

 

I would find it much more difficult to single-hand my boat if it didn't have a gunwale. However, if my boat was much bigger, I wouldn't want to single-hand it anyway, and I certainly wouldn't want to single-hand an 80ft WB.

 

I suggest you go and look at some prices. A fully-fitted new build Dutch barge such as a Piper can cost around £250,000 where as one of their widebeams is probably around £130,000 fully-fitted. I don't think they sell hulls for self-fittouts, but other builders I've looked at quote from £80,000 - £100,000 for a Dutch barge shell. A NB-style widebeam shell can be had for around £30,000 - £40,000 depending on the builder.

 

Losing internal space on a boat is an issue whatever its size, especially if you've specifically bought that boat to live on, as have the majority of NB-style widebeam owners. We're talking about losing up to a foot of space on each side of the boat above gunwale height. That may just be a "little bit" to you, but I'm sure most people who live on boats would disagree. The point is that you may not understand the design or why anyone would want one, but the market happens to disagree with you.

 

I wouldn't want to single hand an 80ft widebeam either (not that I've ever seen one that size), but I can handle my 57ft WB without a problem and so can the majority of NB owners who also have narrow gunwales..

Edited August 24, 2012 by blackrose

[luctor et emergo]

Hang on, I may be missing something. Single handing a boat, and not getting of in a lock? How? Who operates the paddles etc?

And in the video, there are two people handling the ropes.

As long as you allow for enough distance between your hands, and the bollards, there is little chance of your fingers getting trapped. Wearing gloves has a place. Not really neccessary when using rope, but a must when using wire. Also a good idea when dropping paddles, as it's easier to brake the spindle with a gloved hand. ( says he, who never wears gloves in locks... )

 

Edit to correct a where/wear faux-pas

Edited August 24, 2012 by luctor et emergo

[George94]

I suggest you go and look at some prices. A fully-fitted new build Dutch barge such as a Piper can cost around £250,000 where as one of their widebeams is probably around £130,000 fully-fitted. I don't think they sell hulls for self-fittouts, but other builders I've looked at quote from £80,000 - £100,000 for a Dutch barge shell. A NB-style widebeam shell can be had for around £30,000 - £40,000 depending on the builder.

 

Losing internal space on a boat is an issue whatever its size, especially if you've specifically bought that boat to live on, as have the majority of NB-style widebeam owners. We're talking about losing up to a foot of space on each side of the boat above gunwale height. That may just be a "little bit" to you, but I'm sure most people who live on boats would disagree. The point is that you may not understand the design or why anyone would want one, but the market happens to disagree with you.

 

I wouldn't want to single hand an 80ft widebeam either (not that I've ever seen one that size), but I can handle my 57ft WB without a problem and so can the majority of NB owners who also have narrow gunwales..

 

Well, if what you say about Piper is true of other builders, then I am not surprised you chose a wide-beam. I suspect it is partly because they build so few that they can't realise any economies of scale.

 

However, you are missing the point about the space. My space under the gunwales is fully utilised in the ways I mentioned. Pushing the windows out by a foot each side would give me more air, not more usable space. Part of the reason for that is that the gunwale on a proper barge (I can't speak for some of the replicas) is considerably higher than the gunwale on a widebeam, so the space can be used more effectively.

 

Things like dropping an anchor, lowering the mast in a hurry (having forgotten to do so!) as you approach a bridge, getting to the ladder in a lock, getting to the centre of the boat to attach a centre line are all much easier if you have a proper gunwale.

 

But obviously, cost is an issue, though I suspect a Dutch yard could undercut Piper considerably.

[Timleech]

 

 

Things like dropping an anchor, lowering the mast in a hurry (having forgotten to do so!) as you approach a bridge, getting to the ladder in a lock, getting to the centre of the boat to attach a centre line are all much easier if you have a proper gunwale.

 

 

 

[PEDANT] Surely if they are 'proper', they are Side Decks, rather than Gunwales (which is a bit of a misnomer anyway even on narrow boats)? [/PEDANT]

 

I do agree with the gist of what you're saying

 

Tim

[Robbo]

Things like dropping an anchor, lowering the mast in a hurry (having forgotten to do so!) as you approach a bridge, getting to the ladder in a lock, getting to the centre of the boat to attach a centre line are all much easier if you have a proper gunwale.

 

I find this is the case, the larger 'gunwale', just makes it easier for me to walk down the boat rather than shuffle.

[blackrose]

Well, if what you say about Piper is true of other builders, then I am not surprised you chose a wide-beam. I suspect it is partly because they build so few that they can't realise any economies of scale.

 

However, you are missing the point about the space. My space under the gunwales is fully utilised in the ways I mentioned. Pushing the windows out by a foot each side would give me more air, not more usable space. Part of the reason for that is that the gunwale on a proper barge (I can't speak for some of the replicas) is considerably higher than the gunwale on a widebeam, so the space can be used more effectively.

 

Things like dropping an anchor, lowering the mast in a hurry (having forgotten to do so!) as you approach a bridge, getting to the ladder in a lock, getting to the centre of the boat to attach a centre line are all much easier if you have a proper gunwale.

 

But obviously, cost is an issue, though I suspect a Dutch yard could undercut Piper considerably.

 

I don't know exactly how many barges Piper build per year, but I do see quite a few of their new builds going past me at my mooring on the Thames. I'm sure you're correct that they can't realise the economies of scale that some of the budget boat builders do when building NB-style widebeams, but that's all part of the cost passed onto buyers.

 

I did get your point about the space under "proper" wide gunwales being used for storage, but the space above the gunwales is also useful. It may just be air to you, but to me it's interior space which has a beneficial psychological effect. In other words I like the feeling of space.

 

 

I agree that wider gunwales make handling a boat easier, so perhaps there is a compromise to be struck and the budget builders of NB-style widebeams should see if there's a market for widebeams with wider gunwales - but then of course they wouldn't really be narrowboat-style.

 

Interestingly, about a year ago I met a Dutch couple on a Piper barge called Hebbes. They told me that they will spend a couple of years cruising the Thames before taking their boat back to Holland. I them asked why on earth they would come to the UK to have a Dutch-style barge built when they have such a tradition in their own country, but they told me that it's cheaper to have one built here!

 

Edited August 24, 2012 by blackrose

[George94]

I don't know exactly how many barges Piper build per year, but I do see quite a few of their new builds going past me at my mooring on the Thames. I'm sure you're correct that they can't realise the economies of scale that some of the budget boat builders do when building NB-style widebeams, but that's all part of the cost passed onto buyers.

 

I did get your point about the space under "proper" wide gunwales being used for storage, but the space above the gunwales is also useful. It may just be air to you, but to me it's interior space which has a beneficial psychological effect. In other words I like the feeling of space.

 

I agree that wider gunwales make handling a boat easier, so perhaps there is a compromise to be struck and the budget builders of NB-style widebeams should see if there's a market for widebeams with wider gunwales - but then of course they wouldn't really be narrowboat-style.

 

That's precisely my point. There's no good reason to copy a design with restrictions forced on it by the necessity to fit into a 7' lock when you don't have to.

 

Interestingly, about a year ago I met a Dutch couple on a Piper barge called Hebbes. They told me that they will spend a couple of years cruising the Thames before taking their boat back to Holland. I them asked why on earth they would come to the UK to have a Dutch-style barge built when they have such a tradition in their own country, but they told me that it's cheaper to have one built here!

 

Yes, that is interesting. Perhaps that's because they have so many old barges available for conversion that there is no need to build new ones - hence no economies of scale in Holland either.

 

[PEDANT] Surely if they are 'proper', they are Side Decks, rather than Gunwales (which is a bit of a misnomer anyway even on narrow boats)? [/PEDANT]

 

I do agree with the gist of what you're saying

 

Tim

 

Point taken. Side decks is correct. But I actually mentioned "proper barges" not proper gunwales. (Pedantry is infectious! )

Edited August 24, 2012 by George94

[blackrose]

That's precisely my point. There's no good reason to copy a design with restrictions forced on it by the necessity to fit into a 7' lock when you don't have to.

As people keep repeating, the main reason is cost. A boatbuilder who is used to producing narrowboats will find it cheaper to produce widebeams by copying the design. Cost is a good reason for a design whether you happen to like the design or not. The point is that enough people do like it, otherwise they wouldn't build them like that.

 

Yes, that is interesting. Perhaps that's because they have so many old barges available for conversion that there is no need to build new ones - hence no economies of scale in Holland either.

They have lots of old barges in Holland, but the market for old barges and the market for new builds are slightly different. The problem with most old barges that require conversion is that many also require work on their thinning hulls in order to make a conversion worthwhile. But I don't think the difference in price between a new steel NB-style widebeam and a new Dutch-style barge is simply due to economies of scale. Look at the designs. One is shaped like a boat while the other is shaped like a brick. Which do you think will take more work to produce? Labour is not cheap.

Edited August 24, 2012 by blackrose

[George94]

As people keep repeating, the main reason is cost. A boatbuilder who is used to producing narrowboats will find it cheaper to produce widebeams by copying the design. Cost is a good reason for a design whether you happen to like the design or not. The point is that enough people do like it, otherwise they wouldn't build them like that.

 

I am sure they like the cost!

 

But I am also sure that somebody with a bit of flair could build a better-looking and more practical superstructure on the same cheap-to-make hull. Without it costing the earth.

 

BTW, my barge is 9' longer than your WB and rather wider, and I find it a doddle to use single-handed - thanks to the side-decks, and to not having a wheel-house, which improves visiblity and access enormously! Not so much fun when it's raining, of course.

 

Hats off to you that you can operate your boat single-handed. But I suppose you are a youngster.

Edited August 24, 2012 by George94

[Boaty Jo]

I can think of 2 instances recently where single handing our barge would have been dangerous at best.

 

At the southern end of the Canal du Centre the locks are 'automatic'. There are two twin steel poles set into a former lock-ladder recesses. One blue pole for 'operate', one red for emergency stop. On the first dozen (or so) locks up this canal the poles are situated within a few feet of the front of the lock meaning you have to drive to within almost touching distance of the front gates to set the lock in motion. Then you wait (up to a couple of minutes) to make sure the rear gates have started to close. If you single hand, ok you can have organized a head line so your boat is in the right position and put the boat in gear against it. 2 problems here; if you have boats in behind you they get chucked about in your prop wash and secondly you really need to be on the throttle to control your boat against the surge of the lock fill. You also need to be able to get to the emergency stop pole in the lock wall (right at the front of the boat) if something goes wrong - for example, your prop gets fouled by a chunk of wood or one of the boats behind you gets into difficulty.

 

The second instance was where our tiller cable snapped recently and we lost steerage. The only way we could safely move our boat was with me on the emergency tiller on the rear deck (in effect just like a narrowboat tiller) with my wife operating the throttle and bow-thruster in the wheelhouse about 15 feet away. OK we were on a canal at the time and the worst that could have happened, single handed, was that the boat would have crunched into the bank (or an approaching boat). A month previously we were on the River Doubs where you have large weirs and a steering failure at the wrong moment here could have been pretty serious - had we been single handed.

 

Also I think there is a legal requirement to have at least one crew if your boat is more than 20 metres.

[blackrose]

I am sure they like the cost!

 

But I am also sure that somebody with a bit of flair could build a better-looking and more practical superstructure on the same cheap-to-make hull. Without it costing the earth.

 

BTW, my barge is 9' longer than your WB and rather wider, and I find it a doddle to use single-handed - thanks to the side-decks, and to not having a wheel-house, which improves visiblity and access enormously! Not so much fun when it's raining, of course.

 

Hats off to you that you can operate your boat single-handed. But I suppose you are a youngster.

 

I'm sure you're right about someone being ale to design a better boat, but I think the original rationale for the widebeam was that since narrow gunwales work ok on a narrowboat, that design would also work on a wider boat. For the most part I think the design works ok - just as well as a narrowboat. Because I've never had side decks I don't really miss them - it's only when I walk down the side decks of a Dutch barge I think "that would be nice". But as I said previously, you either have wide side decks or you have that interior space above gunwale height, you can't have both. I spend much more time inside my boat that outside, so that compromise is fine with this 50 year old man...

Edited August 25, 2012 by blackrose

[George94]

I'm sure you're right about someone being ale to design a better boat, but I think the original rationale for the widebeam was that since narrow gunwales work ok on a narrowboat, that design would also work on a wider boat.

 

But they don't work on a narrow-boat. They are a necessary compromise, given the width restriction, but they are a real pain.

[blackrose]

But they don't work on a narrow-boat. They are a necessary compromise, given the width restriction, but they are a real pain.

 

Really? I've never had a problem with them on the last two boats I've had. They worked fine on my narrowboat and they work fine on my widebeam. They're not a pain for me and I'd say that the majority of narrowboat owners would agree.

 

Everyone has their own preferences, and if you find them a pain then fortunately it isn't a problem because you don't have them on your boat.

Edited August 26, 2012 by blackrose

[George94]

Really? I've never had a problem with them on the last two boats I've had. They worked fine on my narrowboat and they work fine on my widebeam. They're not a pain for me and I'd say that the majority of narrowboat owners would agree.

 

Everyone has their own preferences, and if you find them a pain then fortunately it isn't a problem because you don't have them on your boat.

 

The fact that you can't walk up and down your boat without clambering onto the roof is definitely a pain. You are used to it, so it doesn't worry you, but having had extensive experience of both I can assure you that I find the lack of a side-deck to be a pain - especially when single-handing and I want to get from stern to centre or bow and back in a hurry.

 

There's no alternative with a NB, but if I ever had a WB built for me, it would have side-decks. And a raised bow and stern.

 

However, I tend to use my boat quite a lot; for people whose boats seldom move, it's obviously less important.

[blackrose]

The fact that you can't walk up and down your boat without clambering onto the roof is definitely a pain. You are used to it, so it doesn't worry you, but having had extensive experience of both I can assure you that I find the lack of a side-deck to be a pain - especially when single-handing and I want to get from stern to centre or bow and back in a hurry.

 

There's no alternative with a NB, but if I ever had a WB built for me, it would have side-decks. And a raised bow and stern.

 

However, I tend to use my boat quite a lot; for people whose boats seldom move, it's obviously less important.

 

But I can walk up and down my boat without clambering onto the roof. I can either use the gunwales or walk through the boat. Perhaps you mean that narrow gunwales were definitely a pain for you. They're definitely not a pain for me, or I suspect for the vast majority of narrowboat owners. I'm sure there are many aspects of any boat that might not be to one's liking. It's all down to personal preference. If narrow gunwales were a pain for you then you're entitled to your opinion, but you don't speak for me or others who use their narrowboats frequently and don't share your views.

Edited August 27, 2012 by blackrose

[Tam & Di]

Hats off to you that you can operate your boat single-handed. But I suppose you are a youngster.

 

Does your forum name suggest you are 94 then?

 

Although Blackrose's boat would not be to my taste it suits him, and I don't think I would have any problem working it one handed in the UK.

Edited August 27, 2012 by Tam & Di

[George94]

But I can walk up and down my boat without clambering onto the roof. I can either use the gunwales or walk through the boat. Perhaps you mean that narrow gunwales were definitely a pain for you. They're definitely not a pain for me, or I suspect for the vast majority of narrowboat owners. I'm sure there are many aspects of any boat that might not be to one's liking. It's all down to personal preference. If narrow gunwales were a pain for you then you're entitled to your opinion, but you don't speak for me or others who use their narrowboats frequently and don't share your views.

 

Do you have difficulty reading?. I said "I find the lack of a side-deck to be a pain". The "I" refers to me, not you, and not to Joe Soap.

 

I was simply responding to your question, and saying that I find it easier and safer to single-hand my boat, with it's side-decks, than a NB, or a WB such as yours which has all the disadvantages that are inherent to the NB design.

 

I wonder how happy you would be to have to clamber along your narrow gunwale on a wet and windy day in choppy conditions, carrying something in one hand. Try it some time and then come back and tell me that it's safe and easy. Because it's safe and easy on a barge with decent side-decks.

 

Meanwhile, why ask questions if you don't want to hear the answer?

[blackrose]

Do you have difficulty reading?. I said "I find the lack of a side-deck to be a pain". The "I" refers to me, not you, and not to Joe Soap.

 

It's you who has difficulty reading. I suggest you go back and read what you've written (post 44).

 

You said "The fact that you can't walk up and down your boat without clambering onto the roof is definitely a pain." So I think it's reasonable to assume that you and your boat refered to me and my boat?

 

 

I was simply responding to your question, and saying that I find it easier and safer to single-hand my boat, with it's side-decks, than a NB, or a WB such as yours which has all the disadvantages that are inherent to the NB design.

 

You are perfectly free to reply to my question, and I am perfectly free to respond, but if you don't like people disagreeing with you then you're on the wrong forum.

 

 

I wonder how happy you would be to have to clamber along your narrow gunwale on a wet and windy day in choppy conditions, carrying something in one hand. Try it some time and then come back and tell me that it's safe and easy. Because it's safe and easy on a barge with decent side-decks.

 

You said you were just speaking for yourself, but this bit sounds like you're still trying to convince me that my gunwales are a pain for me? I wouldn't walk down my gunwales in choppy conditions because that would be stupid, but I don't know why anyone would want to walk down their gunwales in such conditions anyway? I've never needed to on my boat. I've walked down the side decks of a Dutch barge in choppy conditions just to take a seat on the bow, and to be honest I'd avoid doing that again.

 

 

Meanwhile, why ask questions if you don't want to hear the answer?

 

Yours is only one opinion of many - it is not "the answer"!

 

Anyway, let's agree to disagree. You find narrow gunwales a pain, while I and thousands of other users don't.

Edited August 28, 2012 by blackrose

[George94]

Blackrose,

 

I hope that one day you will be in a position to try a barge for an extended time. You may then find out why people are prepared to pay more for them, and it is even possible that you will also find yourself agreeing with me about side-decks.

 

Meanwhile, since you wisely refrain from using your boat in adverse conditions, I can see that the absence of side-decks does not pose a problem. I like having the ability to go to sea in my boat, so side-decks work for me.

 

They extend the boundaries of what is practicable.

[blackrose]

Blackrose,

 

I hope that one day you will be in a position to try a barge for an extended time. You may then find out why people are prepared to pay more for them, and it is even possible that you will also find yourself agreeing with me about side-decks.

 

Meanwhile, since you wisely refrain from using your boat in adverse conditions, I can see that the absence of side-decks does not pose a problem. I like having the ability to go to sea in my boat, so side-decks work for me.

 

They extend the boundaries of what is practicable.

 

 

 

I already understand why people pay more for Dutch-style barges - I'm a big fan of them, but cost wasn't the topic of this thread and it wasn't intended to be a "Which boat is better" thread. We both know the answer to that!

 

Of course I refrain from using my boat in adverse conditions. I've been on tidal rivers plenty of times, but hard chined boats like narrowboats and narrowboat-style widebeams aren't designed for the sea in the first place (with or without side decks), so it's really a moot point.

 

However, since you mentioned extending the boundaries of what is practicable, then how about another example in which the owners of narrowboats have access to the entire UK inland waterways network which neither of us do. Also, I've found that the very shallow draught and low air draught of my boat allows me to get to places on the broadbeam canals where most Dutch barges would fear to venture.

 

No boat can do everything and every boat is a compromise George94, even yours.

Edited August 29, 2012 by blackrose