Plumbing piping and fittings

[DeanS]

Hi again.

 

As you'll notice the preparation time is beginning in my head and all my unanswered questions are going to be coming up. So sorry:) I went into a plumbing place yesterday asking if they sold coils of water piping. They mentioned they sell 2 types...Polyplumb and Speedfit.

 

The piping and fittings seem to come in 2 sizes (10mm and 15mm).

 

Which pipe type and size should I run to all my taps? The 10mm looks small and the 15mm looks big. The Screwfix book lists all sorts of spigots, reducers etc.....Speedfit seems to all be the white stuff and Polyplumb all the grey stuff. I imagine the taps we bought on ebay for the kitchen sink and bathroom basin will fit both?? (duh). The sales guy said you can mix and match with the one type but the other isnt cross-mixing friendly. I'm tempted to go for the Speedfit stuff all the way?

[The Bagdad Boatman (waits)]

15mm piping is what you need. When connecting an elbow or Tee push sleeves inside the pipe (do not use the ones with rubber rings as they jam and can pop off) the sleeves stop the pipe collapsing and slipping, when you push the pipe in make sure it goes in right to the bottom of the fitting. For the tap connections you will probably need a compression joint/speedfit connector.

[blackrose]

I used Speedfit. It's very easy to use. You can also use brass or stainless compression fittings on plastic pipe if you need to. Just make sure you always fit the ferrules whatever type of fitting you use - don't forget or it will leak.

 

15mm seems to be the standard for freshwater plumbing on boats.

[debbifiggy]

Hi again.

 

As you'll notice the preparation time is beginning in my head and all my unanswered questions are going to be coming up. So sorry:) I went into a plumbing place yesterday asking if they sold coils of water piping. They mentioned they sell 2 types...Polyplumb and Speedfit.

 

The piping and fittings seem to come in 2 sizes (10mm and 15mm).

 

Which pipe type and size should I run to all my taps? The 10mm looks small and the 15mm looks big. The Screwfix book lists all sorts of spigots, reducers etc.....Speedfit seems to all be the white stuff and Polyplumb all the grey stuff. I imagine the taps we bought on ebay for the kitchen sink and bathroom basin will fit both?? (duh). The sales guy said you can mix and match with the one type but the other isnt cross-mixing friendly. I'm tempted to go for the Speedfit stuff all the way?

 

My other half (who is a plumber) would say neither. Use copper and brass throughout. Rats and mice like munching on plastic! and more than one boater has had a boat full of water after a speedfit joint popped!

 

D

[bag 'o' bones]

My other half (who is a plumber) would say neither. Use copper and brass throughout. Rats and mice like munching on plastic! and more than one boater has had a boat full of water after a speedfit joint popped!

 

D

The reason why the speedfit joint popped was probally because of not being inserted correctly, or the locking collar was not engaged properly. Agree that rats and mice like to chew on plastic but I think it is such a rare occurance its not worth worrying about.

 

Oh an another thing my Dad is an old school plumber and he thinks that speedfit is the best thing ever invented!

[n.b.Goldie]

Another vote for Speedfit.

 

Speedfit is de-mountable and fittings will work well with both copper and Polyplumb whereas Polyplumb isn't and won't.

 

Always use the pipe inserts whichever plastic system you decide to use.

 

Regards

Ditchdabbler

[blackrose]

My other half (who is a plumber) would say neither. Use copper and brass throughout. Rats and mice like munching on plastic! and more than one boater has had a boat full of water after a speedfit joint popped!

 

D

 

Most here would disagree with your other half. Copper & brass is much more liable to frost damage than plastic pipes which are much more flexible. Speedfit joints might pop if they aren't put together properly (though I think most 8 year olds could manage it), or if the water inside a joint freezes, but then that's the same for copper pipe too.

 

If you have rats & mice in your boat then you've got bigger problems because they will probably munch through your electrical cables too. Surely your other half wouldn't suggest we all use metal conduit?

[system 4-50]

Another vote for Speedfit. Use "cold forming bends" (that what they call brackets to hold the pipe in tight bends) to get the pipe to go where you want it with the minimum of joints. Available from www.toolstation... Ideally no joints to change direction, and only at each end.

[Ex- Member]

Another vote for Speedfit.

 

Speedfit is de-mountable and fittings will work well with both copper and Polyplumb whereas Polyplumb isn't and won't.

 

Always use the pipe inserts whichever plastic system you decide to use.

 

Regards

Ditchdabbler

 

Have to agree, messing around with copper and expensive compression fittings is just nuts.

 

Speedfit also has a certain amount of insulation in it's construction, it is far more flexible and will result in using much less fittings, especially if you use coiled runs, and much more tolerance with regard to fitting.

 

As suggested though use the pipe inserts in every joint and fully ensure correct insertion into each joint. I did my plumbing 7 years ago all Speedfit, not had any leaks or joint failures yet.

 

The only thing I would add is when using speedfit for the heating system I wish I had used 15mm copper for the studs to radiator valves as a couple ended up getting kinked during construction.

 

 

 

 

 

[Justme]

Make sure you use the correct cutting tool.

 

Most leaks are due to hack saw cut ends damaging the O rings.

[OldGoat]

Make sure you use the correct cutting tool.

 

Most leaks are due to hack saw cut ends damaging the O rings.

 

A JG cutter is well worth the cost cuts cleanly and more importantly

cuts at right angles - can be difficlut if you're trimming to size in situ

What's confusing fro the replies is that both solutions have pipe AND fittings.

 

Use JG speedfit for the fittings and whatever takes your fancy (?price) for the tube, again stick with JG if not much price difference.

 

If you shop around you can save quite a lot - even use eBay for fittings if "appropriate"

[David Schweizer]

Personally I would go for Hep20, (AKA Acorn if you are old enough to remember). All the plumbing on our boat is Acorn/Hep20, and we have never had a joint fail

[bag 'o' bones]

Personally I would go for Hep20, (AKA Acorn if you are old enough to remember). All the plumbing on our boat is Acorn/Hep20, and we have never had a joint fail

Failure wise there nothing between the two systems.

 

The only thing that sways we towards John Guest(the people who make speed fit) rather than HEP20 is that you don't require a tool to remove the fitting which in tight corners is a bonus.

[OldGoat]

Failure wise there nothing between the two systems.

 

The only thing that sways we towards John Guest(the people who make speed fit) rather than HEP20 is that you don't require a tool to remove the fitting which in tight corners is a bonus.

 

 

YOu may think me strange (well...) but I do have a soft spot for companies who are "canalside". JG have about the tidiest, well painted factory straddling the GU canal in West London. By canal gets 5 points being spic and span gets another 5, having a generally good product, 5, reasonably priced, 5, good sales data 5,..... All of that out of ten.

[alan_fincher]

Personally I would go for Hep20, (AKA Acorn if you are old enough to remember). All the plumbing on our boat is Acorn/Hep20, and we have never had a joint fail

I would have said I had never had a Hep2O failure too - up until last winter, when it went "minus 10" inside the boat.

 

Although the system had been drained, obviously not all the water was out, as when I refilled in the spring, as one of the Hep2O joints had suffered a failure exactly like others have posted pictures of on here. (The screw cap fails between the threaded cylindrical part and the flat or domed end, (depends on type).

 

But at "minus 10" copper would certainly have long since failed, and I'm not convinced Speedfit would have fared better.

 

Personally I prefer Hep2O because you do need a tool to get a fitting off!

 

I certainly wouldn't now use copper plumbing on a boat, for anything you can do in plastic - plastic, I'm sure is more forgiving.

[MtB]

The inserts.....

 

All the advice to fit them or joints will leak is incorrect in my experience.

 

When the first plastic system came along (HEP20) it was known as 'Acorn' system. (Acorn morphed into HEP20 when Hepworth bought the company). Acorn had 'support sleeves' as an accessory for use when the Acorn pipe was inserted into a conventional brass compression fitting. The insert prevented the pipe collapsing and gave support to allow the compression olive to bite into the plastic pipe. The cam-action stainless steel grip rings in the Acorn push-fit fittings did not need a support sleeve to work correctly according to the early instructions,

 

However, it soon became clear that plumbers, being stupid as mud, could not tell the difference between a compression fitting and a push-fit fitting, and failures with compression fittings were common due to absence of a support sleeve. So it made sense for the manufacturers to adopt a 'one size fits all' policy, and when Hepworth took over they announced support sleeves had to be used ALWAYS. Suited them fine as support sleeve sales rocketed.

 

I have never used support sleeves on HEP20 or Speedfit, ever, and have assembled many thousands of them. I have never had a failure.

[Ex- Member]

The inserts.....

 

All the advice to fit them or joints will leak is incorrect in my experience.

 

When the first plastic system came along (HEP20) it was known as 'Acorn' system. (Acorn morphed into HEP20 when Hepworth bought the company). Acorn had 'support sleeves' as an accessory for use when the Acorn pipe was inserted into a conventional brass compression fitting. The insert prevented the pipe collapsing and gave support to allow the compression olive to bite into the plastic pipe. The cam-action stainless steel grip rings in the Acorn push-fit fittings did not need a support sleeve to work correctly according to the early instructions,

 

However, it soon became clear that plumbers, being stupid as mud, could not tell the difference between a compression fitting and a push-fit fitting, and failures with compression fittings were common due to absence of a support sleeve. So it made sense for the manufacturers to adopt a 'one size fits all' policy, and when Hepworth took over they announced support sleeves had to be used ALWAYS. Suited them fine as support sleeve sales rocketed.

 

I have never used support sleeves on HEP20 or Speedfit, ever, and have assembled many thousands of them. I have never had a failure.

 

In time though they might prove their worth. I know O rings last a long time but should an O ring fail the insert is a second line of protection as there are 2 small O rings in the insert stopping water getting through it. One tight to the pipe and one on the fat end that enters the joint. The failure of the main ring would not cause the pipe to slip back as the screw cap secures that, so the insert would stay in-situ and save the day. Also the 2 O rings on the insert are in contact with water where as the main O ring (assuming fitted properly) isn't so might suffer drying out first.

 

 

 

[bag 'o' bones]

IPersonally I prefer Hep2O because you do need a tool to get a fitting off!

 

 

Or if your worried that a speedfit might inadvertantly release itself you could fit a security snap ring to prevent such an occurance.

 

Another problem with the older HEP20 is that you cannot split the joint and remove the fitting completely without sliding it off which would mean chopping the pipe.

 

At the end of the day John Guest speed fit is superior to HEP20 in many ways hence why Hep 20 has redesigned its locking ring to something similar to John Guest!

Edited July 12, 2012 by bag 'o' bones

[n.b.Goldie]

The inserts.....

 

All the advice to fit them or joints will leak is incorrect in my experience.

 

When the first plastic system came along (HEP20) it was known as 'Acorn' system. (Acorn morphed into HEP20 when Hepworth bought the company). Acorn had 'support sleeves' as an accessory for use when the Acorn pipe was inserted into a conventional brass compression fitting. The insert prevented the pipe collapsing and gave support to allow the compression olive to bite into the plastic pipe. The cam-action stainless steel grip rings in the Acorn push-fit fittings did not need a support sleeve to work correctly according to the early instructions,

 

However, it soon became clear that plumbers, being stupid as mud, could not tell the difference between a compression fitting and a push-fit fitting, and failures with compression fittings were common due to absence of a support sleeve. So it made sense for the manufacturers to adopt a 'one size fits all' policy, and when Hepworth took over they announced support sleeves had to be used ALWAYS. Suited them fine as support sleeve sales rocketed.

 

I have never used support sleeves on HEP20 or Speedfit, ever, and have assembled many thousands of them. I have never had a failure.

 

I confess that I have not used inserts on some of the cold pipe-work and had no problem but I did have a tiny weep from a hot water pipe joint when the water was hot (very hot!). I put an insert into the pipe and the joint wept no more. Co-incidence possibly but I always use inserts now and as they are not a lot of money I feel they are justified (for me, others will I am sure disagree).

 

Regards

Ditchdabbler

 

 

[MtB]

I confess that I have not used inserts on some of the cold pipe-work and had no problem but I did have a tiny weep from a hot water pipe joint when the water was hot (very hot!). I put an insert into the pipe and the joint wept no more. Co-incidence possibly but I always use inserts now and as they are not a lot of money I feel they are justified (for me, others will I am sure disagree).

 

Regards

Ditchdabbler

 

 

 

I'd say yes, a coincidence. Minor weeps on plastic pipe joints are caused by scratches on the surface of the tube. Its easily scratched pulling it through drilled holes in wood or metal, or simply abrasion on the ground. Take car to feel for scratches and cut the pipe for insertion were there are no scratches and you'll get no leaks.

[ditchcrawler]

My other half (who is a plumber) would say neither. Use copper and brass throughout. Rats and mice like munching on plastic! and more than one boater has had a boat full of water after a speedfit joint popped!

 

D

I would have a word with that cat of yours if you think that may be a problem.

 

The other good thing is you can run a pipe from one end of the boat to the other with no joints

[alan_fincher]

Another problem with the older HEP20 is that you cannot split the joint and remove the fitting completely without sliding it off which would mean chopping the pipe.

Well, with the old stuff you can of course nip the grip ring off with a pair of cutters. OK you need a new ring before you can reuse the fitting, but the pipe can stay intact.

 

At the end of the day John Guest speed fit is superior to HEP20 in many ways hence why Hep 20 has redesigned its locking ring to something similar to John Guest!

Yes, but if you buy it now, you wouldn't be buying the older stuff that is not demountable.

 

It seems for whatever reason that Acorn / Hep2O has tended to be the more popular on canal boats, perhaps because it is what seems to be sold most in chandlers.

[maty]

i prefer polyplumb only as i prefer the metal locking ring . both systems are good as long as you push the pipe home and use an insert you should have no problems . the only problems i have seen with these systems is when the system has been over pressure tested as this seems to stretch the o rings . i only test to 3 bar that's plenty ..

 

another new system on the market is upnonor , i do believe they do a push fit fitting . i have just been using the clamp version and was very impressed over 5000 joints and no leeks its probably the best stuff Ive used . its a German thing , i don't have a clue were you can get it from , but i can see it becoming very popular

Edited July 12, 2012 by maty

[TUGBOAT]

Hep20 is by far the best to use but you cannot use it with any other type ie Polyplumb or Speedfit. there are two lots of Hep20 the older which is grey and the new system which is white make sure you use the white system. another point to check is. are they suitable for the Heating system as not

all plastic pipes can take the heat for the central heating. I have built 3 Boats and I only use Hep20 and I have never had a problem. One other thing I suggest is always fit an on / off switch near the main door that you will use and put the Boat key on a hook next to it and on leaving the Boat just flick the switch off to lesson the chanch of a flooded Boat on your return if something does fail

 

 

 

 

Hi again.

 

As you'll notice the preparation time is beginning in my head and all my unanswered questions are going to be coming up. So sorry:) I went into a plumbing place yesterday asking if they sold coils of water piping. They mentioned they sell 2 types...Polyplumb and Speedfit.

 

The piping and fittings seem to come in 2 sizes (10mm and 15mm).

 

Which pipe type and size should I run to all my taps? The 10mm looks small and the 15mm looks big. The Screwfix book lists all sorts of spigots, reducers etc.....Speedfit seems to all be the white stuff and Polyplumb all the grey stuff. I imagine the taps we bought on ebay for the kitchen sink and bathroom basin will fit both?? (duh). The sales guy said you can mix and match with the one type but the other isnt cross-mixing friendly. I'm tempted to go for the Speedfit stuff all the way?

[David Schweizer]

Hep20 is by far the best to use but you cannot use it with any other type ie Polyplumb or Speedfit. there are two lots of Hep20 the older which is grey and the new system which is white make sure you use the white system. another point to check is. are they suitable for the Heating system as not

all plastic pipes can take the heat for the central heating. I have built 3 Boats and I only use Hep20 and I have never had a problem. One other thing I suggest is always fit an on / off switch near the main door that you will use and put the Boat key on a hook next to it and on leaving the Boat just flick the switch off to lesson the chanch of a flooded Boat on your return if something does fail

There are actually six different types if you include the old brown Acorn fittings, The first three types are interchangeable (although type 2 and 3 do not look the same), types 4 and 5 with domed locking rings are interchangeable with each other, but not with types 1,2,& 3, or 6, and type 6 which is not interchangeable with any of it's predecessors. Our boat is 30 years old and we have every type except the latest in the plumbing system, I have a small stock of fittings and spare parts for all the first five types.

 

One thing which impresed me was that a few years ago I wrote to Hepworths asking if they couold supply me with some replacement grab rings and rubber rings for the earlier type 1 and 2 fittings, not only could they supply them, but they sent me half a dozen of each, free of charge. Any company which provides a service like that will always get my custom.