Boat sunk at Redhill

[Roxy]

 

 

[dccruiser]

Such a shame, looks like it was a nice boat

 

Rick

[benfordboy]

Unattended ropes at a guess ?

 

Difficult for some if you live a long way from the boat & work 9-5.

 

If thats actually on Redhill moorings I would be even more gutted for the owner , I know most yards prefer you to maintain your own ropes etc , but to let a boat sink within view of the office........

[Roxy]

Unattended ropes at a guess ?

 

Difficult for some if you live a long way from the boat & work 9-5.

 

If thats actually on Redhill moorings I would be even more gutted for the owner , I know most yards prefer you to maintain your own ropes etc , but to let a boat sink within view of the office........

 

Unattended ropes it seems, the owner only bought it a month ago, hope he's insured! He turned up this morning to do a few jobs on it and found it underwater, thing is, it was moored on the opposite side BW's moorings not Redhill and it happened over Friday night so nobody was aware.

[Madmark62]

Finding your boat sunken is the worst feeling I have ever had so far in my life.

I really feel for the owner.

[Guest]

Always a horrible sight. I feel very sorry for the owners.

[Tuscan]

Gutted for the owners hope they had insurance , there may be some horror stories after the recent bad weather lets hope not

[benfordboy]

Gutted for the owners hope they had insurance , there may be some horror stories after the recent bad weather lets hope not

 

I've seen a few boats sunk in similar conditions , for some reason , the company / yard salvaging the boat usually seems to end up owning it - Maybe the insurance co pays out the owner & then does some sort of deal with the yard that involves them taking ownership.

 

Not sure

[Arthur Brown]

Lots will depend on the owner's personal abilities.

 

I got the phone call that my boat was taking on water and in the half hour it took to get there only the cabin roof was showing, It took a week to get the bits together then one day I pulled my dry suit on and lifted it and pumped it out. As Teadaemon's recent salvage job it really isn't hard just takes some organising. Getting the 6" fire pump from a former work place was a great help.

 

Yes if the insurers pay out for total loss the salvage is theirs and they will dispose as quickly as possible and especially to someone who can "collect" -it minimises the cost to them.

Edited July 7, 2012 by Arthur Brown

[tree]

Unattended ropes at a guess ?

 

Difficult for some if you live a long way from the boat & work 9-5.

 

If thats actually on Redhill moorings I would be even more gutted for the owner , I know most yards prefer you to maintain your own ropes etc , but to let a boat sink within view of the office........

 

so sad and what a horrible thing for anyone to find. I must admit since owning my boat and living 5 hours away used to worry me, what if something happens to my boat and no-one else knows or is able to let me know. Luckily I made friends on both of the marinas that my boat has been at and they kept an eye on it for me. Lets hope that the owner is insured and this doesnt put them off boating.

 

I know its not always easy to make friends that quickly, but I just chatted to other boaters around and explained about my travel times and if they could just let me know if owt looked like being a problem and if they could kindly keep a check and gave them my mobile number. Because at the end of the day my boat will be my home.

[Theo]

We are at Raynsway ATM on the painting berth (Ha ha!) Well upstream from Redhill. The levels shot up on Thursday morning. I would guest about 15" in 4 hours. Down about 8" overnight and then gradually up again during today.

 

Nick

[Arthur Brown]

The trouble is that high water brings all sorts of debris that was on the bankside to float and get stuck between a boat and it's mooring then slight movement tends to dig the debris into or through the hull right on the waterline.

[canals are us?]

Truly awful, I couldn't imagine finding something like that with boat ownership :blink: .

 

Hope you have it insured and can get boating soon in your new purchase.

 

James

[Teadaemon]

Lots will depend on the owner's personal abilities.

 

I got the phone call that my boat was taking on water and in the half hour it took to get there only the cabin roof was showing, It took a week to get the bits together then one day I pulled my dry suit on and lifted it and pumped it out. As Teadaemon's recent salvage job it really isn't hard just takes some organising. Getting the 6" fire pump from a former work place was a great help.

 

Yes if the insurers pay out for total loss the salvage is theirs and they will dispose as quickly as possible and especially to someone who can "collect" -it minimises the cost to them.

 

Quite a bit of organising in our case (especially to get the two 5.5 cubic metre per minute pumps that got her up), plus a large team of willing helpers. Having said that, I'd guess that when the water levels recede this one will be a good deal easier to raise, assuming it was unattended ropes and not debris putting a big hole into her.

 

Often whoever raises the boat gets her as they have a salvage lien over the boat and if the owner can't (or won't) pay a salvage award, or the insurance company decides to cut their losses then the salvors get the boat in lieu of cash.

[RLWP]

 

Often whoever raises the boat gets her as they have a salvage lien over the boat

 

<snip>

 

Really? On inland waterways?

 

Richard

[Roxy]

We are at Raynsway ATM on the painting berth (Ha ha!) Well upstream from Redhill. The levels shot up on Thursday morning. I would guest about 15" in 4 hours. Down about 8" overnight and then gradually up again during today.

 

Nick

Theo, When I was there yesterday it was still rising on the Soar, some of my neighbours are staying on there boats, I was going to stay on mine but when I arrived I waded across in me wellies, we had another downpour and by that time (only an hour) I waded back and the water levels had risen yet again just in an hour...I was worried that I might not be able to get off my boat today so went home...

 

Levels are rising and dropping like well...etc

[Chris Pink]

 

Often whoever raises the boat gets her as they have a salvage lien over the boat and if the owner can't (or won't) pay a salvage award, or the insurance company decides to cut their losses then the salvors get the boat in lieu of cash.

 

Rubbish.

 

If you raise a boat the owner is still the outright owner and owes the salvor nothing unless a contract was in place before the lift.

 

I thought you claim to be a qualified surveyor - if so you should check your facts before spouting such scurrilous nonsense.

 

 

...

Edited July 8, 2012 by Chris Pink

[nigel carton]

I thought salvage rights was for the salty stuff?

[Roxy]

Rubbish.

 

If you raise a boat the owner is still the outright owner and owes the salvor nothing unless a contract was in place before the lift.

 

I thought you claim to be a qualified surveyor - if so you should check your facts before spouting such scurrilous nonsense.

 

 

...

 

At last, we agree on summat

[Teadaemon]

I thought salvage rights was for the salty stuff?

 

Salvage applies to all tidal waters and all waters connected to them that are navigable by seagoing vessels.

 

As the definition of 'seagoing vessels' is pretty vague, I think you'll find that the laws of salvage apply to quite a lot of the UK's inland waterways.

[Chris Pink]

Again, complete rubbish. And I suggest if you want to seriously make this case you find some supporting evidence.

 

I know, for an absolute fact, that if you raise a boat on BW waters without being commissioned by BW the owner is entitled to say 'thank you' and walk away. Even BW have to require the owner to take his own steps via a Section 8 notice before doing it themselves (as owners of the waterway and recovering costs)

 

Unless it's a hazard to navigation.

[Teadaemon]

Well the definition I have was from the tutor of the legal module of my diploma, a practising maritime lawyer, and former RN officer and merchant marine officer of the watch.

 

Salvage law certainly applies to the whole of the Norfolk Broads (it's all tidal), and there have been plenty of cases to back that up.

 

There are of course other requirements that have to be met for a service to be considered salvage, one of which is that the vessel or other property needs to be 'in peril'. It may be difficult to show that a vessel that's sunk at it's mooring on a canal is in imminent danger of suffering further damage, so that could be one reason why it's hard to claim salvage (of course if somebody happened to come across a boat that was in the process of sinking and put a pump or pumps aboard it, that would be a different matter).

 

Chris, has your scenario been tested in court, and if it has, do you have a reference to a case? It may not have been, as the costs of such a case could very quickly exceed the value of a salvage award (appropriate legal representation tends to start at around £400 per hour).

[Chris Pink]

 

Chris, has your scenario been tested in court, and if it has, do you have a reference to a case? It may not have been, as the costs of such a case could very quickly exceed the value of a salvage award (appropriate legal representation tends to start at around £400 per hour).

 

As it is you that is making this absurd assertion i think it is you that has to prove your case.

 

But for the purposes of reductio ad absurdam; If my model yacht sinks on my garden pond you have no right to enter my property and raise the boat, you have no right to attempt to charge me for anything. BW waters are privately-owned waters.

 

And, as far as I am aware Redhill Marina is not on the Norfolk Broads, nor is it tidal.

 

Even in tidal and coastal waters, if you had done your research properly, you would know that there are two criteria that would have to be satisfied before you were entitled to raise a vessel not causing an obstruction.

 

Firstly you would have to make every attempt to trace the owner and gain permission to raise the vessel or recover its contents

 

secondly you would have to show you are a 'legitimate salvor'

 

Both of these are terms under the Merchant Shipping Act 1995. I am not aware of many companies on the canal that could claim the status of legitimate salvor'.

 

Perhaps you know different?

[Teadaemon]

As it is you that is making this absurd assertion i think it is you that has to prove your case.

 

But for the purposes of reductio ad absurdam; If my model yacht sinks on my garden pond you have no right to enter my property and raise the boat, you have no right to attempt to charge me for anything. BW waters are privately-owned waters.

 

And, as far as I am aware Redhill Marina is not on the Norfolk Broads, nor is it tidal.

 

Even in tidal and coastal waters, if you had done your research properly, you would know that there are two criteria that would have to be satisfied before you were entitled to raise a vessel not causing an obstruction.

 

Firstly you would have to make every attempt to trace the owner and gain permission to raise the vessel or recover its contents

 

secondly you would have to show you are a 'legitimate salvor'

 

Both of these are terms under the Merchant Shipping Act 1995. I am not aware of many companies on the canal that could claim the status of legitimate salvor'.

 

Perhaps you know different?

 

If your model yacht sinks in your garden pond it's not covered by salvage law unless your garden pond is both big enough for seagoing vessels to navigate on and connected to tidal waters.

 

'Private water' makes absolutely no difference, salvage law can still apply. An example would be a dock basin connected to tidal waters by a lock - it's private, but you can still claim salvage. Of course, there is no absolute right to enter private land or traverse private water for the purposes of effecting salvage, but doing so without the relevant permission would only be civil trespass, and wouldn't affect the validity of any salvage award.

 

I used the Norfolk Broads as an example of inland waters where salvage laws definitely do apply. I'm pretty certain that the River Soar is both connected to tidal waters and is navigable by seagoing vessels, so salvage laws do apply on it and any connected waters.

 

You only need the permission of the owner if a vessel or other item has not been abandoned. If a vessel is moored up, that's a lot harder to prove than if she's floating around unmanned or sat on the sea/river bed (this is why the master of a vessel may have their crew taken off by assisting vessels but remain aboard themselves). A 'legitimate salvor' is one who's intending to perform an act of bona fide salvage, i.e. to rescue a vessel or other item that is in imminent peril (or to prevent pollution from such a vessel or other item), and to which they do not have any relevant contractual obligation (which may also prevent a boatyard or marina claiming salvage on a vessel in their care). If you're going to invoke the Merchant Shipping Act, then at least have the decency to provide an accurate reference so we can all read it for ourselves (I have better things to do than attempt to wade through at entire act of parliament, if I'd wanted to do that I'd have become a lawyer and not a surveyor).

 

Also, there's nothing absurd about suggesting that salvage may apply in this case, the law is pretty clear that it may do so. The technicalities of whether or not it would or not would come down to relevant case law and the specific facts pertaining to any successful effort to refloat the vessel. As such, I can't see any point in continuing this argument. I would also caution you against making any further inaccurate comments about my knowledge or qualifications, unless you'd like me to start considering the law related to defamation.

[Chris Pink]

I I would also caution you against making any further inaccurate comments about my knowledge or qualifications, unless you'd like me to start considering the law related to defamation.

 

Oh I do apologise. I thought you had claimed to be qualified as a surveyor. That is the only comment I have made about your knowledge or qualifications. if I have got this wrong I do apologise unreservedly. I was simply going on information you had provided. I made no attempt at verifying this, my mistake.

 

 

As I have no legal interest in this case I have no interest in proving what would be self-evident to anyone; that if you entered Redhill Marina without permission and attempted to salve the sunken boat in the OP you would be at the very least liable to action under the laws of trespass and entitled to no salvage fee whatsoever.