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OMG. ALL OVER THE CANAL


bigcol

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Hi all

 

Some advice again please?

 

I took our 2008 (new to us) barge out for the first time today,to the winding hole so as to turn arround ready for cranage to have a bow thruster fitted in 2 weeks time.

 

I found that steering the barge I seem to be forever under and over steering, from one side of the canal to the other I've got a marker to ctr the wheel but the but seemed to take forever to change direction,which led to me turning it more and more till I had to go to reverse lock.

 

Playing about at our mooring it seemed the boat was not very responsive to the wheel.

 

The boat is 26 ton 57 ft x 10 ft with hydronic steering from one full lock to the other is 5 turns on the wheel

The boat has a 50hp beta, reading through the forum could this be that the prop is too small? seems to rev but slow to repond ?

Takes a long time to stop or get going?

What size prop should the boat have?

 

We love the boat,no problem with the draft any more,like we did on the other boat,in fact is was nice that we never hit the bottom or fouled the prop so never had to go in.

 

Had no problem today winding or with bridges, just dificult getting the boat to go where I pointed it!

 

Any advice from folks who can give advice will be great

 

Or is it at 52 I've lost it and need new glasses

 

Col

Edited by bigcol
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Are you used to wheel steering? if not it takes a bit of time to get used to. The trick, to my mind, is to do as little wheel turning as possible and wait a bit to see the result.

 

Of course, if you are used to a wheel and it's the characteristics of this particular one then that's different.

 

I've been steering a barge recently that has three turns one way and five the other and air in the hydraulics so have had a bit of practice - takes me back to dodgy Ford Transits with knackered steering boxes

 

...but a little and often is my advice, if you're over on the lock then something's not right.

 

It would be a good idea to get this sorted before the bow thruster's fitted or you may find it more difficult to crack.

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I designed and fitted mechanical wheel steering on our 60' NB and finished up with just under 2.5 turns lock to lock. This seems to give the right feedback and is nice and responsive without the need for a helm position indicator. I get the feeling that the gearing on most wheel steered boats is too low and made worse by trying to handle the wheel like a car and getting fingers, hands and elbows caught up. At first I fitted a steering knob to the wheel and found it best to use that exclusively, so much so that I replaced the wheel with a crank handle - perfect.

If the rudder is too large for 2.5 turns then some power assistance might be better, alternatively more leading edge on rudder.

Edited by nb Innisfree
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I found that steering the barge I seem to be forever under and over steering, from one side of the canal to the other I've got a marker to ctr the wheel but the but seemed to take forever to change direction,which led to me turning it more and more till I had to go to reverse lock.

 

Forget the rudder gauge or marker for centre, useful when manoeuvring in tight areas but a distraction when underway. Look where your going and what turning the wheel turning is doing (but remember it takes a while to react, hence your oversteering).

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Forget the rudder gauge or marker for centre, useful when manoeuvring in tight areas but a distraction when underway. Look where your going and what turning the wheel turning is doing (but remember it takes a while to react, hence your oversteering).

 

As soon as the boat starts to swing the way you have turned the wheel, start turning it the other way (a little).

Slow down (the engine) until you have mastered the steering. If you're in a restricted channel, putting on more power makes steering much harder to control.

 

Tim

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I think its just a matter of getting used to it really. Most people over correct any powered boat however its steered when they first try it. When you make a turn start centreing the wheel a little early to (meet it) as they say.

Some cars with power steering are a little like this too, the Fraud Focus i always found has over sensitive steering and can(over steer)easily and i always found them uncomfortable to drive.But if i owned one i suppose i'd get used to it. And try it on a windless day so as to get a true feel of the steering.

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I found that steering the barge I seem to be forever under and over steering, from one side of the canal to the other I've got a marker to ctr the wheel but the but seemed to take forever to change direction,which led to me turning it more and more till I had to go to reverse lock.

 

Playing about at our mooring it seemed the boat was not very responsive to the wheel.

 

The boat is 26 ton 57 ft x 10 ft with hydronic steering from one full lock to the other is 5 turns on the wheel

The boat has a 50hp beta, reading through the forum could this be that the prop is too small? seems to rev but slow to repond ?

Takes a long time to stop or get going?

What size prop should the boat have?

 

 

It's mostly been said, but with hydraulic steering it will take quite a while before you learn to read the feedback, whereas a mechanical linkage is much easier to feel. Certainly you should ignore any rudder position indicator or other device - they are fine when you are manoeuvring, as you really do need to know roughly where the rudder is pointing before you apply the power, but for straightforward moving along the canal you just need your Mark 1 eyeball. It's a bit like learning to ride a bike - initially you wobble about all over the place, but then you gradually get your balance and find you are hardly touching the handlebars at all. In this case the same will happen with the wheel - initially it will be a matter of great concentration, moving the wheel slightly to correct the steering the very instant the boat starts to move off line. Gradually you will get so relaxed about it you can start to look around you as well. Eventually it will get to be the same as driving a car - the only time your mind switches onto the action of driving is when something unusual or unexpected happens. You will also be steering as much by the feel of the boat under your feet and the weight on your hands, even the sound of the engine and the exhaust, as by what it is you can see.

 

Having said all that, some boats are nevertheless a pig to steer, and a lot depends upon the swim, the rudder size and its balance, size of prop etc. You'd have to wait until you are more familiar with the boat to see if that is a factor. A bow thruster can be a useful tool (there, I've admitted it!) but it is no alternative to learning to handle your boat. It will have no effect in helping you to steer in a straight line along the canal.

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Hi all

 

Stubag done the course inland waterways, also have helsman cert,ICC, and cevnies luss 15 years plus of coastal crusing. :rolleyes:

 

But this barge is new to me, and have today noticed that the helm had 4,5 turns lock to lock.

there is no play and no air in the hydrolics

 

centering the spoke wheel i am turning the wheel 2 spokes, but dont seem to move the rudder much.

 

Ray from this forum having experiance in moving barges has offered to join me on a 3 hr run to see if its me or the boat.

 

It posibly is me, and will be most happy if it is.

 

thanking other posters and have to aggree with most of them

 

but will wait for Ray to see if he experiances the same problems

 

I want it to be more practics

 

Helming my old barge it had mechanical steering, and although dificult to master. I did get use to it

 

There are also 2 stops either side of the skeg, and am not sure that this is corect

 

I did upload a video on you tube of me coming back onto the berth but does not show much apart from my berth needs dredging and Im taking my time.

 

if you want to see me trying to get along side I have posted a link lol

 

 

This boat has never been used on the waterway until now and be overjoyed if Ray says its all me lol

 

thanks all

 

col

Edited by bigcol
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But this barge is new to me, and have today noticed that the helm had 4,5 turns lock to lock.

there is no play and no air in the hydrolics

 

 

How does one adjust the number of turns? is it where on the rudder arm the actuator is attached? Could you not move it closer to the pivot point a bit?

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Hi Chris

 

Many thanks for your message unfornatley im a bit of a numpty when it comes to engineering steering, rudders props part etc. your post just went slowly above my head :blush:

 

I hope that after having somone Ray from the forum experianced on barges, will be able to prove if its me or somthing to do with the boat.

If it is somthing to do with the steering props etc then I will be having to get more advice

but then its down to money.

 

but if its me getting it wrong, needing tution then hey ho, I be more than happy!! :blush:

 

Col

 

PS

 

Re the video

 

I did manage to get the boat in eventually lol the wind helped!!!

 

Col

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From the video, a lot of the problem there seems to be the depth of water. Lots of silt coming up as soon as reverse goes on. If the boat has a "V" bottom, it will drive through a foot of silt no problem, until you try to turn. :unsure:

 

Iain

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I'm new to wheel steering too. But I am learning and feel I'm cracking it. What I have noticed very much is how much I can rapidly steer in the direction the rudder is going but applying blasts of power. I have a Schilling type rudder so this might be a factor but it's well usefll.

 

Certainly it's a lot different to a tiller, but I'm beginning to prefer it. I find the less I think about it the better I steer, even my wife is better than she was on the tiller.

 

My boat is a bit bigger than yours but not much. IMO 50hp sounds a bit low and might well account for your other performance issues

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How does one adjust the number of turns? is it where on the rudder arm the actuator is attached? Could you not move it closer to the pivot point a bit?

 

You certainly could but you can get another steering pump that pump more for less turns.

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You could change the pivot point but you need to consider the ram and pump limitations.

 

Another thing I have noticed is my central point varies depending on the power I have on so the straight ahead is not necessarily where the centre or straight ahead is on the wheel.

 

I have no centre marker or rudder indicator, I just feel the boat to know where straight is for the particular moment. I think all this happens on a tiller too but because it's muuh more direct and personal you nardly notice you are making micro course corrections just like steering a car.

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Close to where I come from in broxbourne, there is a hire boat company. They have a couple of dozen electric boats that go out on the Lea. It's funny to watch the hirers on the first fifty yards. They zigzag all over the place until they realise that " less is more " . On their way back you can see the difference in control is amazing. I have had one out and it was the same with me so I can only say its practice. May be a bit different in a 60 ton barge though.

Steve P

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This boat has never been used on the waterway until now and be overjoyed if Ray says its all me lol

 

It is difficult to see very much detail on the video as it jumps about a lot, but I think you would benefit from being deeper in the water at the stern or fitting a cowl over the blades. As someone else noted, you are trying to get in to a place that is very shallow, but you appear to be rather heavy handed with the throttle, and splashing water up into the air rather than having it make the boat move in the desired direction. This is pulling the arse end of the boat down, making it even more difficult to get in - you'd be a lot more successful in those conditions to do it more gently.

 

It looks too that you probably have right handed blades, which means the stern pulls to the left in reverse. That should make it much simpler to come into the bank on your left as in the video. You should be able to get the fore end right in, then go astern with the rudder to port which should drop the back in too. You looked to be trying to get in from a position parallel to the bank for some reason. If your blades are actually left handed then it is a lot more fiddly getting in to a quay on your left as the prop bias throws the stern away when you hold back. In that case you can either get the fore end in first for crew to put a line onto something and drive in against that, or get it in and give little squirts of power in head gear to drive the arse end in once the bow is pretty much against the bank.

 

Hope I'm not teaching grandmothers to suck eggs - it's also very difficult to expain stuff like this in words.

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hI Tam and Di

 

No problem, Im always learning.

 

your post got me thinkng, but must admit bit confused re is it boat or is it me. if boat what could be wrong or what can be done to make it right.

 

Biggles the hydrolic steering is as new, but can these be altered to do less turns re steering?

 

saying this, if good weather tomorrow or monday, Ray from this forum has offered to come out for a trial.

 

Col

 

Will keep all informed MANY MANY MANY THANKS FOR YOUR IMPUT ALL :cheers:

 

PS I hoping it is just me being a numpty and heavy handed.

 

If the boat. just want to know what i have to do to fix it

 

balast? prop? rudder? steering?

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hI Tam and Di

 

No problem, Im always learning.

 

your post got me thinkng, but must admit bit confused re is it boat or is it me. if boat what could be wrong or what can be done to make it right.

 

Biggles the hydrolic steering is as new, but can these be altered to do less turns re steering?

 

saying this, if good weather tomorrow or monday, Ray from this forum has offered to come out for a trial.

 

Col

 

Will keep all informed MANY MANY MANY THANKS FOR YOUR IMPUT ALL :cheers:

 

PS I hoping it is just me being a numpty and heavy handed.

 

If the boat. just want to know what i have to do to fix it

 

balast? prop? rudder? steering?

I don't think you have any propeller thrust(bite)trouble Col as the boat seemed to pull up quite smartly when you changed from forward to reverse,despite the large throttle opening and shallowness and a possible a bit of cavitation caused by this.

I think its goddabeyouhoohoo. :mellow:

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The hydraulic system my be new but it will have a certain maximum load and the closer the pivot point to the rudder stock centre line the more pressure it will need to exert.

 

I suspect the boat builder has optimised it anyway. Mine is 5 turns stop to stop.

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Hi All

 

Well ray from this forum turned up this morning,

 

and yes it turns out that im a numpty!!!! :lol:

 

Ray helmed the boat and it seems that im looking at the wheel too much, and giving to much revs.

 

the boat has light steering, and does take its time to react to the wheel, the wheel needs constant corecting and getting the feel of the boat.

 

It seems that I was expecting to turn to port and get a admediate response, and then to turn the wheel back to centre getting a admediate response again if I didnt I just turned the wheel more and more without looking at front,the point ! not understanding where the boat started to turn , and missing it.

Im thinking Bizzard, tam and Di, and biggles know what Im trying to explain

 

but its slowley slowley from now on.

 

as posters did point out from the vid,

I was also too heavy handed with the throtle!

This boat handles so different to what Ive had before, no boat handles the same

 

Anyway Im a happy bunny :lol:

 

lesson learnt that its too easy to look at poss boat faults, and not the wifes fault either

 

so its pratice, pratice and more pratice

 

Thankyou all especially Ray :cheers:

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