Battery cabling

[matty40s]

Do you have the right shunt for this meter?

 

I nipped down to Julynians area today to check on progress.....

 

 

 

everything seems to be in the right place....

 

 

 

 

just not sure how he is going to fit it on the boat...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ex- Member]

The spec for the shunt is in the details on eBay, it gives volts/amps but I can't remember what.

 

A 200 amp ammeter needs a 200 amp 75mV for 6 to 24 volt DC

 

When I got the shunt originally it came with ammeter all in one kit.

Edited May 15, 2012 by Julynian

[by'eck]

 

Firstly you still have the solar and mains charger connected directly to the batteries negative. This will bypass the shunt so it won't display charge current. Moving those two connections to the other side of the shunt will solve this. Remember in an earlier post you quoted to me Gibbo's sensible recommendation that nothing goes between shunt and batteries.

 

I would have put the 200 amp (or larger) inverter fuse immediately after its isolator switch, with the latter sited as close as possible to the batteries positive. It makes little difference though as long as their are good size cables for the whole cable run though. Remember the 16 amp breaker is protecting the panel circuit feeds anyway so they can connect directly to the batteries.

[Ex- Member]

Firstly you still have the solar and mains charger connected directly to the batteries negative. This will bypass the shunt so it won't display charge current. Moving those two connections to the other side of the shunt will solve this. Remember in an earlier post you quoted to me Gibbo's sensible recommendation that nothing goes between shunt and batteries.

 

I would have put the 200 amp (or larger) inverter fuse immediately after its isolator switch, with the latter sited as close as possible to the batteries positive. It makes little difference though as long as their are good size cables for the whole cable run though. Remember the 16 amp breaker is protecting the panel circuit feeds anyway so they can connect directly to the batteries.

 

Hi rich

 

Yep the solar charge controller and mains were meant to be the other side, mistake in my drawing, makes me dizzy all those lines

 

Leaving the 200 amp fuse where it is on the plan does help my wiring as i would need to have another 70mmS cable made up slightly longer than the current one. putting the fuse there avoids me buying new cable basically. I originally didn't have a breaker on the 12 volt panel side, so it was wired in to the isolator switch for isolating the 12 volt system if required, of course with the breaker now fitted I dont need the isolator, so will run some 16mmS from battery+ to 16 amp breaker and remove the 3 smaller wires I used originally (shown in photo). Bit neater too. Of course this will take a bit of load off the 70MMs cable from battery + to isolator switch also. As mentioned the inverter cable is 120mmS

 

I think it's pretty well sussed now thanks to yourself and Pete, I certainly owe you to chaps a pint or to, or 3

 

One more quick Question. I'll remove the shunt from it's current location. Will fitting a bus bar in it's place be ok, as again I could have a problem with the -ve 70mmS cable length, I might get away with a single M10 post though if that's ok.

 

If I leave the current shunt where it is, would fitting a second shunt at proposed Battery -ve cause any problems?

 

Thanks again

 

 

 

 

 

 

Firstly you still have the solar and mains charger connected directly to the batteries negative. This will bypass the shunt so it won't display charge current. Moving those two connections to the other side of the shunt will solve this. Remember in an earlier post you quoted to me Gibbo's sensible recommendation that nothing goes between shunt and batteries.

 

I would have put the 200 amp (or larger) inverter fuse immediately after its isolator switch, with the latter sited as close as possible to the batteries positive. It makes little difference though as long as their are good size cables for the whole cable run though. Remember the 16 amp breaker is protecting the panel circuit feeds anyway so they can connect directly to the batteries.

 

Hi rich

 

Yep the solar charge controller and mains were meant to be the other side, mistake in my drawing, makes me dizzy all those lines

 

Leaving the 200 amp fuse where it is on the plan does help my wiring as i would need to have another 70mmS cable made up slightly longer than the current one. putting the fuse there avoids me buying new cable basically. I originally didn't have a breaker on the 12 volt panel side, so it was wired in to the isolator switch for isolating the 12 volt system if required, of course with the breaker now fitted I dont need the isolator, so will run some 16mmS from battery+ to 16 amp breaker and remove the 3 smaller wires I used originally (shown in photo). Bit neater too. Of course this will take a bit of load off the 70MMs cable from battery + to isolator switch also. As mentioned the inverter cable is 120mmS

 

I think it's pretty well sussed now thanks to yourself and Pete, I certainly owe you to chaps a pint or to, or 3

 

One more quick Question. I can remove the shunt from it's current location. Will fitting a bus bar in it's place be ok, as again I could have a problem with the -ve 70mmS cable length, I might get away with a single M10 post though if that's ok.

 

If I leave the current shunt where it is, would fitting a second shunt at proposed Battery -ve cause any problems?

 

Thanks again

 

 

 

 

 

 

I nipped down to Julynians area today to check on progress.....

 

 

 

everything seems to be in the right place....

 

 

 

 

just not sure how he is going to fit it on the boat...

 

Hi matty

 

Where my wind turbine

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[by'eck]

One more quick Question. I'll remove the shunt from it's current location. Will fitting a bus bar in it's place be ok, as again I could have a problem with the -ve 70mmS cable length, I might get away with a single M10 post though if that's ok.

 

If I leave the current shunt where it is, would fitting a second shunt at proposed Battery -ve cause any problems?

 

Although more work I know, replacing the original shunt connection cables with a single length of cable would be better. Every connection no matter how well made introduces a tiny and seemingly irrelevant resistance (sometimes more than one). They all add up though & at high currents can introduce a noticeable volt drop.

[smileypete]

Ok pete, how's this, not quite sure if I've understood you correctly.

 

Looks good, but the fuses for inverter, solar charger mains charger need to go as close to the batt bank as you can, on the diag they're shown at the other ends of the cables.

 

The idea of the fuses is to protect the cables downstream from excessive fault current, in this case it comes from the batt bank (which can easily output 1000A) so they need to go next to the batt bank.

 

Agree with Richards comments on moving connections to other side of the shunt. Most of the ebay meters come with 75mV shunts so it's likely the old shunt will work fine with the new meter.

 

Do you want to be able isolate solar charger and mains charger when away from boat for long periods? At the moment the batt isolator only isolates the inverter and DC panel by the looks of it.

 

cheers,

Pete.

[Ex- Member]

Looks good, but the fuses for inverter, solar charger mains charger need to go as close to the batt bank as you can, on the diag they're shown at the other ends of the cables.

 

The idea of the fuses is to protect the cables downstream from excessive fault current, in this case it comes from the batt bank (which can easily output 1000A) so they need to go next to the batt bank.

 

Agree with Richards comments on moving connections to other side of the shunt. Most of the ebay meters come with 75mV shunts so it's likely the old shunt will work fine with the new meter.

 

Do you want to be able isolate solar charger and mains charger when away from boat for long periods? At the moment the batt isolator only isolates the inverter and DC panel by the looks of it.

 

cheers,

Pete.

 

Looks good, but the fuses for inverter, solar charger mains charger need to go as close to the batt bank as you can, on the diag they're shown at the other ends of the cables.

 

The idea of the fuses is to protect the cables downstream from excessive fault current, in this case it comes from the batt bank (which can easily output 1000A) so they need to go next to the batt bank.

 

Ok Pete duly noted.

 

Do you want to be able isolate solar charger and mains charger when away from boat for long periods? At the moment the batt isolator only isolates the inverter and DC panel by the looks of it.

 

 

I managed to get some 60 amp breakers, arrived yesterday. Thought them worth a try.

 

http://www.ebay.co.u...9#ht_1348wt_135

 

Thanks Pete you've been a great help, Might do another diagram for my future reference or any future owner.

Edited May 16, 2012 by Julynian

[smileypete]

Thanks Pete you've been a great help, Might do another diagram for my future reference or any future owner.

No problem, reading the other thread on batt isolators, the BSS requires a fuse or isolator in the alt -ve lead.

 

Maybe a 500A mega fuse and holder close to the +ve batt common would be best, to avoid probs with accidental batt isolator use.

 

Also how far is your isolator from the batts as on the diag it seems quite a way, can it be moved closer?

 

cheers, Pete.

[by'eck]

No problem, reading the other thread on batt isolators, the BSS requires a fuse or isolator in the alt -ve lead.

 

Maybe a 500A mega fuse and holder close to the +ve batt common would be best, to avoid probs with accidental batt isolator use.

 

Also how far is your isolator from the batts as on the diag it seems quite a way, can it be moved closer?

 

cheers, Pete.

 

Surely this would outlaw virtually every automotive sourced alternator in existence since they don't usually have isolated returns. I believe some even with dedicated B- terminals still have an internal connection to the casing.

[Keith M]

No problem, reading the other thread on batt isolators, the BSS requires a fuse or isolator in the alt -ve lead.

Maybe a 500A mega fuse and holder close to the +ve batt common would be best, to avoid probs with accidental batt isolator use.

 

Also how far is your isolator from the batts as on the diag it seems quite a way, can it be moved closer?

 

cheers, Pete.

 

Hello Pete,

 

Where is this information I was looking at the on-line BSS regulations this morning and did not see it

 

Keith

[smileypete]

Hello Pete,

 

Where is this information I was looking at the on-line BSS regulations this morning and did not see it

 

Keith

 

It says:

 

'3.6.2/R REQUIREMENT

Certain circuits supplying power to equipment that requires a

continuous supply, e.g. bilge pump, may bypass the battery isolation

switch. However, the risks associated with a short circuit or

overload fault must be minimised particularly when the boat is

left unattended.

Do all electrical circuits pass through a battery isolator, or are

those requiring a continuous supply otherwise protected?

Identify any electrical circuits bypassing the battery isolator.

Check that any electrical circuits bypassing the battery isolator supply

the following equipment:

I automatic bilge pumps;

I security alarms (including marine radios);

I fire pumps;

I electronic navigation equipment with memories;

I any other equipment where the manufacturer’s instructions indicate

or specifically require direct connection to a battery, such as

diesel-fired central heating boilers;

I battery charger outputs;

I inverters or combination inverter/chargers.

Check electrical circuits supplying any equipment on the specified list

and which bypass a battery isolator, for the presence of a fuse

or circuit-breaker, where the circuit can be seen.

All electrical circuits must pass through a battery isolator, except those

that feed equipment requiring a continuous supply, which must be

protected by a suitable fuse or circuit-breaker.

Notes – In cases where circuits directly connected to the battery do

not appear in the specified list, compliance must verified on request

by supportive paperwork from the manufacturer or supplier.

The fuse or circuit-breaker protecting specified equipment bypassing

a battery isolator must be installed where the circuit can be seen at

examination or otherwise required. If not, it will be considered as not

meeting the requirement, because the fuse or circuit-breaker is very

unlikely to be located either where the circuit is hidden or be more than

a short distance from the battery'

 

The bit in I highlighted seems to allow a bit of room for, er, interpretation and pragmatism on the part of BSS examiners.

 

Personally I think a £10 500A megafuse and holder in the alt cable next to the batts is cheap insurance on a new install, but disturbing an existing install to fit one may be counterproductive.

 

And feeding the alt through the isolator on a hire boat is asking for callouts, or feeding the alt through the typical cheap isolators a lot of boats have. There was another recent thread not long ago on this.

 

cheers,

Pete. smpt

Edited May 17, 2012 by smileypete

[Keith M]

It says:

 

'3.6.2/R REQUIREMENT

Certain circuits supplying power to equipment that requires a

continuous supply, e.g. bilge pump, may bypass the battery isolation

switch. However, the risks associated with a short circuit or

overload fault must be minimised particularly when the boat is

left unattended.

Do all electrical circuits pass through a battery isolator, or are

those requiring a continuous supply otherwise protected?

Identify any electrical circuits bypassing the battery isolator.

Check that any electrical circuits bypassing the battery isolator supply

the following equipment:

I automatic bilge pumps;

I security alarms (including marine radios);

I fire pumps;

I electronic navigation equipment with memories;

I any other equipment where the manufacturer’s instructions indicate

or specifically require direct connection to a battery, such as

diesel-fired central heating boilers;

I battery charger outputs;

I inverters or combination inverter/chargers.

Check electrical circuits supplying any equipment on the specified list

and which bypass a battery isolator, for the presence of a fuse

or circuit-breaker, where the circuit can be seen.

All electrical circuits must pass through a battery isolator, except those

that feed equipment requiring a continuous supply, which must be

protected by a suitable fuse or circuit-breaker.

Notes – In cases where circuits directly connected to the battery do

not appear in the specified list, compliance must verified on request

by supportive paperwork from the manufacturer or supplier.

The fuse or circuit-breaker protecting specified equipment bypassing

a battery isolator must be installed where the circuit can be seen at

examination or otherwise required. If not, it will be considered as not

meeting the requirement, because the fuse or circuit-breaker is very

unlikely to be located either where the circuit is hidden or be more than

a short distance from the battery'

 

The bit in I highlighted seems to allow a bit of room for, er, interpretation and pragmatism on the part of BSS examiners.

 

Personally I think a £10 500A megafuse and holder in the alt cable next to the batts is cheap insurance on a new install, but disturbing an existing install to fit one may be counterproductive.

 

And feeding the alt through the isolator on a hire boat is asking for callouts, or feeding the alt through the typical cheap isolators a lot of boats have. There was another recent thread not long ago on this.

 

cheers,

Pete. smpt

 

Many Thanks

 

Keith

[Ex- Member]

No problem, reading the other thread on batt isolators, the BSS requires a fuse or isolator in the alt -ve lead.

 

Maybe a 500A mega fuse and holder close to the +ve batt common would be best, to avoid probs with accidental batt isolator use.

 

Also how far is your isolator from the batts as on the diag it seems quite a way, can it be moved closer?

 

cheers, Pete.

 

Mega fuse for alernator taken on board.

 

the battery isolator is 1.7 metres from the battery distribution posts using 70mmS cable. It would be difficult to move that particular isolator there, I could buy a smaller one and am now considering this. I'll keep the existing isolator as it's perfect for housing the BIG inverter cables. I'v also made a few more basic changes based on yours and Rich's advice. New plan as follows.

 

 

 

I started work on this this afternoon, I've decided to affix an Oak panel to the outer plastic battery boxes,(in Brown in diagram) this will allow room for a battery isolator switch and the fuses required for other equipment cable clips etc. There will also be an Oak plinth around the bottom of the battery boxes that will secure them to the floor.

 

 

 

I see no point in removing the isolator already under the step, I suppose 2 isolators are better than 1 and it is a perfect place to connect the inverter and isolate it if necessary. I found this Durite isolator on e-bay, should do the job.

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.u...#ht_1370wt_1037

 

Also bought me this crimper, dinky wee thing crimps up to 70mmS hopefully it'll do the job tomorrow. Also got plenty of adhesive heat shrink, I think you suggested glued stuff some time ago, seems quite thick too, much more than standard heat shrink, that's for sure.

 

http://www.ebay.co.u...9#ht_1552wt_922

 

All the positive and negative electrics will be housed in the enclosures below, I'll of course vent the on housing the shunt, just drill lots of holes in it. I've worked it out that no terminal connections will show or be exposed anywhere and by using 2 separate enclosures should avoid shorting when working on the system.

 

Hopefully I'm almost there, of course the debate on the alternator might well go on, but If an isolator is required I would prefer a mega fuse like you've suggested, so might get another one at 500 amp.

 

http://www.ebay.co.u...9#ht_1552wt_922

 

Will post some more update photos tomorrow, your comments and anyone else's are welcome. I do want to get these electrics right and have a trouble free no worries system.

 

Edited May 17, 2012 by Julynian

[Ex- Member]

Got to grips (literally) with the new crimpers. I must say these are brilliant although only used a few times so far, but crimping with these hydraulic crimpers compared to those giant bolt cropper types makes the job so much easier. Also the crimp is much neater than the large ones I've used before.

 

I only bought the set up to 70mmS but you can get the larger sets up to 300mmS for around £50.00 Bargain if they last ok. You do get spare o rings with these kits, so I wonder how often they go.

 

So I'm sat on the sofa watching the news and crimping lugs to cables piece of cake

 

Ready to crimp

 

7 pumps of lever

 

Job done

[ditchcrawler]

Got to grips (literally) with the new crimpers. I must say these are brilliant although only used a few times so far, but crimping with these hydraulic crimpers compared to those giant bolt cropper types makes the job so much easier. Also the crimp is much neater than the large ones I've used before.

 

I only bought the set up to 70mmS but you can get the larger sets up to 300mmS for around £50.00 Bargain if they last ok. You do get spare o rings with these kits, so I wonder how often they go.

 

So I'm sat on the sofa watching the news and crimping lugs to cables ped.png[/img]

I hope one of those O rings doesn't fail on the lounge floor

[Ex- Member]

Just out of interest

 

I'm currently linking my 6 v batteries to 12v units. What colour cable should be used for the links. I ask because on our 24v lorries the link cable on the batteries is Brown, I'm sure it might not matter but usually in electronics there's some kind of colour coding for cable.

 

Anyway 1st one was Red so I'm not changing but should they be marked or labelled in any way?

[micky44]

hi, can i ask for a link for that crimping tool your useing please, looks a really tidy job, well done. i am also after a fair bit of battery cable but in 95 mm, saw this on ebay, any good do you think ? only problem i can see is its all black ? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/140380904181?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

Edited May 20, 2012 by micky44

[Ex- Member]

hi, can i ask for a link for that crimping tool your useing please, looks a really tidy job, well done. i am also after a fair bit of battery cable but in 95 mm, saw this on ebay, any good do you think ? only problem i can see is its all black ? http://www.ebay.co.u...984.m1438.l2649

 

Hi Micky

 

The crimper I have is up to 70mmS you'll need this one for 90mmS it will crimp up to 300mmS I must sat the one I have has been brilliant, really easy crimping even at the max 70mmS

 

Cable looks good quality, ask the e-bayer the question, it might be old stock or bankrupt stock and he only has Black, shouldn't be difficult to find the same in Red if you get the make of cable.

 

 

 

 

 

[micky44]

HA HA, and the link please the cable is ex mod stuff, i will give them a call tomorrow.

[Ex- Member]

HA HA, and the link please the cable is ex mod stuff, i will give them a call tomorrow.

 

 

Sorry Micky

 

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10-300mm-DIE-RANGE-HYDRAULIC-CRIMPER-CABLE-CRIMPING-TOOL-10mm-300mm-CRIMPERS-/150776726302?pt=UK_BOI_Materials_Supplies_Electrical_ET&hash=item231afe431e#ht_2974wt_1249

 

 

 

[micky44]

ha , brilliant mate thanks very much, i was looking at hirering one http://homebase.hirestation.co.uk/basket/add-items/hire/220130/ but at that price i think i will treat my self, all the best

[by'eck]

Just out of interest

 

I'm currently linking my 6 v batteries to 12v units. What colour cable should be used for the links. I ask because on our 24v lorries the link cable on the batteries is Brown, I'm sure it might not matter but usually in electronics there's some kind of colour coding for cable.

 

Anyway 1st one was Red so I'm not changing but should they be marked or labelled in any way?

 

Not critical but keeping them all red indicates you will get a nasty surprise if you (accidentally) drop a spanner on them

 

Due to their (hopefully) close proximity, there should be no need to mark the links.

[Ex- Member]

Not critical but keeping them all red indicates you will get a nasty surprise if you (accidentally) drop a spanner on them

 

Due to their (hopefully) close proximity, there should be no need to mark the links.

 

 

Hi Rich my thinking too.

 

Managed to get the batteries located at last, has taken me a lot longer than expected but my fault for changing my mind. Want to tray and make a nice job of it all too and gave me the opportunity to use up some Oak off cuts. I knew they would come in handy

 

There's some dead space I can't get to at the back Left corner of the battery bank, so fitted lugs on 15mm Oak plinth section to hold the battery cases down, their lined up with the base lip of the battery boxes and simply slide under the lugs. Batteries have been linked.

 

First pair located, 2 of these US 6v batteries are damned heavy. After locating I could measure accurately the rest of the Oak surround and fit. The bases of these battery cases are a tough honeycomb section and slide very easily on the decking floor.

 

The final 4 batteries linked & fitted, I've joined the 2 front cases and panelled in Oak. I can now mount electrical components here like battery switch shunt fuses & breakers. The 3 cases are also bolted together making the 3 cases a whole unit.

 

Changing the arrangement means the battery cable connector leads are now only 12 inches long each, I've fitted the 3 -ve to the shunt so just awaiting for the battery switch to arrive to fit the 3 +ve I'm waiting for 2 enclosures that will fit to the bottom plinth where the 2 battery distribution posts will be located.

 

It turned out that the cable I had which I thought was 35mmS was actually 40mmS this was due to reading the size written on the cable lug attached and not reading the print on the cable When spotted I recalled that someone said that you'll get a better crimp with 35mm crimps, they are a very tight fit though but I managed to get every single strand in and really nice crimps with the new tool.

 

All will be finished next weekend now as I've made sure I'v ordered everything I need this time . My only slight concern is will the 3 +ve battery leads fit ok inside the new battery switch. It has a 10mm stud but can't find any diagrams for it.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230757167038#ht_1370wt_1037

 

From there a 70mmS cable just a few inches will connect vertically to the battery +ve distribution post fitted through the plinth, the same applies from the shunt for the -ve post.

 

Opinions welcome.

[micky44]

Hi Rich my thinking too.

 

Managed to get the batteries located at last, has taken me a lot longer than expected but my fault for changing my mind. Want to tray and make a nice job of it all too and gave me the opportunity to use up some Oak off cuts. I knew they would come in handy

 

There's some dead space I can't get to at the back Left corner of the battery bank, so fitted lugs on 15mm Oak plinth section to hold the battery cases down, their lined up with the base lip of the battery boxes and simply slide under the lugs. Batteries have been linked.

 

First pair located, 2 of these US 6v batteries are damned heavy. After locating I could measure accurately the rest of the Oak surround and fit. The bases of these battery cases are a tough honeycomb section and slide very easily on the decking floor.

 

The final 4 batteries linked & fitted, I've joined the 2 front cases and panelled in Oak. I can now mount electrical components here like battery switch shunt fuses & breakers. The 3 cases are also bolted together making the 3 cases a whole unit.

 

Changing the arrangement means the battery cable connector leads are now only 12 inches long each, I've fitted the 3 -ve to the shunt so just awaiting for the battery switch to arrive to fit the 3 +ve I'm waiting for 2 enclosures that will fit to the bottom plinth where the 2 battery distribution posts will be located.

 

It turned out that the cable I had which I thought was 35mmS was actually 40mmS this was due to reading the size written on the cable lug attached and not reading the print on the cable When spotted I recalled that someone said that you'll get a better crimp with 35mm crimps, they are a very tight fit though but I managed to get every single strand in and really nice crimps with the new tool.

 

All will be finished next weekend now as I've made sure I'v ordered everything I need this time . My only slight concern is will the 3 +ve battery leads fit ok inside the new battery switch. It has a 10mm stud but can't find any diagrams for it.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230757167038#ht_1370wt_1037

 

From there a 70mmS cable just a few inches will connect vertically to the battery +ve distribution post fitted through the plinth, the same applies from the shunt for the -ve post.

 

Opinions welcome.

That looks really neat in my book, well done. can i ask a really stupid question please, the three black cables, are they conected to a bus bar or is that a shunt ? if it is a shunt, could you when you have the time explain , in simple words for a numpty why it is needed, or is it a fuse ? Which i do not think it is cos its on the negative side, cheers micky.

[Ex- Member]

That looks really neat in my book, well done. can i ask a really stupid question please, the three black cables, are they conected to a bus bar or is that a shunt ? if it is a shunt, could you when you have the time explain , in simple words for a numpty why it is needed, or is it a fuse ? Which i do not think it is cos its on the negative side, cheers micky.

 

Hi Micky

 

There's a way of wiring batteries than ensures equal charging of each battery. This is the optimum way by having all cable leads from the battery posts at the same length. These equal lengths then go to a distribution post -ve and +ve on my set up the distribution posts will sit vertically below the shunt and battery switch when fitted. You then never connect anything to the battery bank, all connections go to the battery distribution posts. You can fit the shunt on the other side of the Dist post but again you can only wire to the non battery side of the shunt.

 

Shunts are generally used to read amperage via an amp meter. I think they act as a kind of fuse also, not sure. I'm no expert in this either, a couple of members have guided my with this installation throughout the thread, for which I'm extremely grateful . Might be worth a read as I've gleaned a lot of info along the way.

 

Regards

 

Julian

Edited May 20, 2012 by Julynian