Battery question again

[lesrollins]

As new liveaboards we seem to be running the engine everyday for about 4 - 5 hours to keep the batteries topped up. We have got a 12 volt tv, fridge, led lights, pumps etc. So its not what I would call an heavy drain on the batteries. There are three 220ah batteries so more than enough. The boat is about 7 yrs old but stood on the bank unused since october 2010. I don,t know how old the batteries are and how well they had been maintained before hand. Since owning the boat I have checked the levels every week and topped them up when needed. The batteries are elecsol as anyone heard of them before and are they any good. I would like to stick with these type of batteries if possible to save me adjusting the container where they sit. Reading on the net they are priced at around 230-250 and have a five year warranty. They do a carbon fibre battery a little more expensive but with a seven year warranty. What are carbon fibre batteries like. And if I had to change the dimensions of the battery box what would be a good alternative battery. Thanx

[blodger]

Elcosols get a mixed reception on here and though there has not been a poll about them I venture that the preference is for other batteries for boat use.

 

You have the better ones if they are not sealed; Have you taken hydrometer readings and maybe voltage readings when they are isolated and have settled to try to work out if they are equal. Months of none use will have deteriorated them through sulphation. It would be worth acquiring the specs for the model and seeing what voltage they can sustain to equalise charge them to remove some sulphation and restore them somewhat.

 

ETA What alternator(s) (amps) and how much charge do you get into the batts at the start and end of charging at what voltage? could help inform. Iy maybe in 7 years some problems have developed in the charging system. Oh and do you have a diode splitter or relay if a single alt?

Edited April 29, 2012 by blodger

[bottle]

Les

 

So many questions and probably dozens of opinions.

 

You do not have to fit the same type, just the same physical size.

 

Have a search (top right) for battery, batteries but I am sure there will be plenty of opinions forth coming.

[Arthur Brown]

What are you using to determine SOC? Sometimes even though you have not used much % charge the last topping up can take ages as the charge rate tapers as it approaches completion. The load you indicate shouldn't take much from a 660Ah stack could you run for two or three days before recharging?

 

Unless you moor in a tunnel a solar cell would be most useful, a cell (with controller) in the region of 100 - 250w peak would assist greatly with keeping the batteries charged. Sometimes the generator is the fastest way of achieving 80% SOC and the solar will achieve the remaining 20% free and silently over lunchtime.

Edited April 29, 2012 by Arthur Brown

[blodger]

Elcosols get a mixed reception on here and though there has not been a poll about them I venture that the preference is for other batteries for boat use.

 

You have the better ones if they are not sealed; Have you taken hydrometer readings and maybe voltage readings when they are isolated and have settled to try to work out if they are equal. Months of none use will have deteriorated them through sulphation. It would be worth acquiring the specs for the model and seeing what voltage they can sustain to equalise charge them to remove some sulphation and restore them somewhat.

 

ETA What alternator(s) (amps) and how much charge do you get into the batts at the start and end of charging at what voltage? could help inform. Iy maybe in 7 years some problems have developed in the charging system. Oh and do you have a diode splitter or relay if a single alt?

 

/quote]

 

ETA 2 I see from your other thread asking abour SG &SB that you have twin alts 90 & 45

[lesrollins]

The batteries are not the sealed type. If looked after how many years could you get from them and what about carbon fibre batteries.

[blodger]

The batteries are not the sealed type. If looked after how many years could you get from them and what about carbon fibre batteries.

Looked after and not used their life would be nye on infinite.

Not looked after and abused three months.

So something in between but not usefully past any warranty/guarantee.

Cost effective on boats carbon fibre rarely is IMHO

 

ETA1 I have been getting 8 years plus from open lead acid 110ah batteries, their diminishing capacity is augmented by solar.

 

ETA2 A fundamental which you have not illuminated on is what voltage the batts achieve from the alternator and what the end charge current is, etc

Edited April 29, 2012 by blodger

[bowten]

I personally would not recommend Elecsol batteries.I have had my fair share of their so called customer relations.Check the batteries and if not serviceable replace with standard lead acid batteries from a reputable dealer.

[Chris Pink]

Interestingly I would recommend their batteries but yes you really have to hastle their customer service to get their attention but it's good enough when you do in my experience.

 

I don't fit them any more as I tend to recommend US2200s and the price difference isn't great.

 

I think they last longer than standard cheapies but be aware 5 year warranties are only for manufacturing faults not abuse.

 

US2200s are a different profile so you would have to change your battery installation.

Edited April 29, 2012 by Chris Pink

[Arthur Brown]

Batteries abused will all die quickly regardless of brand or price, If allowed some tlc most brands of battery will give fair service.

 

Sealed, maintenance free, Gel and AGM batteries are critical of charge regimes bulk charge current, absorption and float voltages, wet calls with removable cell covers can take more abuse as you can replace any water that gasses off. SO if you really will do the maintenance then flooded cells are good, if you will not do the work then buy sealed batteries and replace them as the die.

[tosher]

I too would recommend Elecsol batteries. Mine are open lead acid carbon fibre construction type and in their 6th year of service. Can't comment on customer service as never had to contact them.

[David Mack]

As new liveaboards we seem to be running the engine everyday for about 4 - 5 hours to keep the batteries topped up. We have got a 12 volt tv, fridge, led lights, pumps etc. So its not what I would call an heavy drain on the batteries.

 

This doesn't sound untypical to me for a liveaboard. Other threads here suggest you should charge for 2-3 hours per day plus 8 hours once per week. A solar panel or two would get the engine charging time down.

 

About half your total power consumption will be the fridge, so search for previous threads on minimising fridge power use.

[bottle]

Why, when people say my batteries have lasted so many years and they are absolutely the bee's etc. not say whether they are live aboard, CCing, weekenders and/or permanently attached to shoreline or not.

 

I had sealed 'leisure' batteries they lasted 2½ years, were discharged nearly every day to 50% SOC they were recharged to about 95% SOC every day sometimes 100% SOC.

 

I now have AGM's they weigh 5Kg more (per battery) than the leisure ones, same power usage but they rarely go below 65% SOC and are charged to 95% sometimes 100% SOC

 

The number of hours charging has approximately stayed the same.

 

The Amp.Hrs and physical size of the batteries is the same.

 

The new batteries will have to last about 7 years to make the costs equal overtime, we shall see.

 

ps. charging normally done via generator and 'intelligent' charger unless we had cruised that day.

[dor]

Why, when people say my batteries have lasted so many years and they are absolutely the bee's etc. not say whether they are live aboard, CCing, weekenders and/or permanently attached to shoreline or not.

 

Absolutely agree Keith. I once had a well-known boat electrician tell me that the Sterling PDAR was the answer to everything. "Fully recharge your batteries in two hours", "It's all digital these days Dave, you need to catch up". Then told me how his batteries had lasted for years. What he failed to mention was that he was in a marina on a landline and never went anywhere. Still think I know more about charging regimes than he did.

[lesrollins]

This doesn't sound untypical to me for a liveaboard. Other threads here suggest you should charge for 2-3 hours per day plus 8 hours once per week. A solar panel or two would get the engine charging time down.

 

About half your total power consumption will be the fridge, so search for previous threads on minimising fridge power use.

 

How much power would a lec 12 volt fridge take and its been turned down to 1. Just got home today and the voltmeter is reading 11 volts apart from the fridge switched on permantely and the use of the tv for a couple of hours, o and the pumps there as not been a great usage from the batteries. And the engine was running for about 5 hours yesterday. At the end the volts were reading 14 volts but then after a while it drops down to just over 12 volts. With a bank of 660 ah I wouldn,t of thought that the small usage of power would of knocked it down to 11 volts. Reading through the paperwork on the boat it says that the fridge as a rating amp of 20. Today i,m going to invest in a hydrometer hopefully it will tell me what battery cells are good or bad.

[blodger]

Older and common 12v fridges average at least 2 amps; Newer can be better. So say 50ah/day

 

If your batts reached 14 volt with the alternator running and succombed to 12v I would say they were still not charged despite the five hours running or, are knackered.

Edited April 30, 2012 by blodger

[Keeping Up]

How much power would a lec 12 volt fridge take and its been turned down to 1. Just got home today and the voltmeter is reading 11 volts apart from the fridge switched on permantely and the use of the tv for a couple of hours, o and the pumps there as not been a great usage from the batteries. And the engine was running for about 5 hours yesterday. At the end the volts were reading 14 volts but then after a while it drops down to just over 12 volts. With a bank of 660 ah I wouldn,t of thought that the small usage of power would of knocked it down to 11 volts. Reading through the paperwork on the boat it says that the fridge as a rating amp of 20. Today i,m going to invest in a hydrometer hopefully it will tell me what battery cells are good or bad.

 

At a low setting of 1 I'd expect the fridge to take an average of about 1 amp (ie 1 ampere-hour per hour) which shouldn't significantly affect a good, fully charged 660 aH bank within one day.

 

Edited to add, assuming that the fridge was already cold. Otherwise it will take 2 to 4 times as much current for a few hours.

 

The fact that the volts fall to just over 12 soon after charging suggests that the bank is probably knackered, although it's not possible to tell if it was fully charged when you were seeing 14 volts (only knowing how much charging current it was taken at that precise time would answer that question, or - as you have already reasoned a hydrometer reading - and if they were completely flat before your 5-hours charge they may have been only partly recharged at the end of it.

 

It's also possible that the voltage reading is slightly misleading if the fridge is drawing current at the time.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Keeping Up

[bottle]

Les

 

If your batteries are not knackered, just totally discharged then they will need charging for at least 24 hours on an' intelligent' (3 stage) charger.

 

The charger needs to be of sufficient size (amps).

 

Lots of figures are banded about, about the size of charger, 10%, 15%,25% of battery bank size, personally I went for 15%, it is a compromise.

 

Probably given this link before: http://www.smartgaug...chargesize.html

 

ps. I am running a totally electric live aboard, CCing with all white goods (fridge and freezer) 240v ac. on 330 Amp.Hr at 24v dc battery bank. and charge via 'intelligent' charger supplied by onboard generator for about 3 Hrs a day.

 

Just one thought this fridge you run it is a true 12v dc and not a 12v/230v/gas one ?

Edited April 30, 2012 by bottle

[Proper Job]

How much power would a lec 12 volt fridge take and its been turned down to 1. Just got home today and the voltmeter is reading 11 volts apart from the fridge switched on permantely and the use of the tv for a couple of hours, o and the pumps there as not been a great usage from the batteries. And the engine was running for about 5 hours yesterday. At the end the volts were reading 14 volts but then after a while it drops down to just over 12 volts. With a bank of 660 ah I wouldn,t of thought that the small usage of power would of knocked it down to 11 volts. Reading through the paperwork on the boat it says that the fridge as a rating amp of 20. Today i,m going to invest in a hydrometer hopefully it will tell me what battery cells are good or bad.

I don't wish to be the perveyor of bad tidings, but I'd say your batteries are knackered. If they're at 14v at the end of charging (I assume with the engine off) and then drop to just over 12v soon after, they're not hold their charge. When you've got home to find them at 11v, that's total discharge! They're as flat as a pancake.

 

Combine that with your original comment of, "The boat is about 7 yrs old but stood on the bank unused since october 2010", I think you need to budget on buying some new batteries.

[blodger]

Les

 

If your batteries are not knackered, just totally discharged then they will need charging for at least 24 hours on an' intelligent' (3 stage) charger.

 

The charger needs to be of sufficient size (amps).

 

Lots of figures are banded about, about the size of charger, 10%, 15%,25% of battery bank size, personally I went for 15%, it is a compromise.

 

Probably given this link before: http://www.smartgaug...chargesize.html

 

ps. I am running a totally electric live aboard, CCing with all white goods (fridge and freezer) 240v ac. on 330 Amp.Hr at 24v dc battery bank. and charge via 'intelligent' charger supplied by onboard generator for about 3 Hrs a day.

Just one thought this fridge you run it is a true 12v dc and not a 12v/230v/gas one ?

If they are knackered a different approach is more likely to recover them than that which is not working now

[ditchcrawler]

Older and common 12v fridges average at least 2 amps; Newer can be better. So say 50ah/day

 

If your batts reached 14 volt with the alternator running and succombed to 12v I would say they were still not charged despite the five hours running or, are knackered.

A 660 ah bank down to 11 volts is going to take quite a while to get anywhere near 100% charge

[lesrollins]

I haven,t been able to get hold of a hydrometer locally tried halfords and all the car spare places. If someone knows of anywhere in Gloucester let me know. Otherwise I will source one off the net.

 

Anyway I have just been looking at the paperwork on the boat and in the craft spec sheet under service batteries the item is marked down as 3 x Elecsol 220 a/h 12v. And they are Elecsol,s still fitted on the boat so if they are the original ones they have had a good innings and its time for a change. Would it be sensible to stick with such a large bank of batteries or even drop down to some 110,s. Any good batteries come to mind ? This is all new to me. Cheers

[bottle]

Les

 

You may be able to downsize your bank but you will need to do a power audit, that is work out how much power you will use over say a 24hrs, then double it and add a percentage for the unseen/unknown.

 

That will give you the minimum size of battery bank required.

 

The more you discharge a battery (DOD) the shorter its life so, there is an argument that a slightly bigger bank will have a longer life.

 

Remember whatever you use, you have to put back approximately 50% more, so using 100 amp.hr will need to put back 150 amp.hr.

 

As to battery type that is up to you but most 'experts' on here recommend true deep cycle, wet lead acid. The type that can be topped up with distilled water.

 

Whatever batteries you decide on, not having a good charging/care routine will wreck them in months rather than years.

[ditchcrawler]

I haven,t been able to get hold of a hydrometer locally tried halfords and all the car spare places. If someone knows of anywhere in Gloucester let me know. Otherwise I will source one off the net.

 

Anyway I have just been looking at the paperwork on the boat and in the craft spec sheet under service batteries the item is marked down as 3 x Elecsol 220 a/h 12v. And they are Elecsol,s still fitted on the boat so if they are the original ones they have had a good innings and its time for a change. Would it be sensible to stick with such a large bank of batteries or even drop down to some 110,s. Any good batteries come to mind ? This is all new to me. Cheers

On halfords web site http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_530647_langId_-1_categoryId_255205

[lesrollins]

Thanks when i rang them yesterday they told me they didn, t stock them ! Strange.