60/40 split.

[luctor et emergo]

Ohh, if ever the taxman knocks on your boat to check on your declared "95% for generating electricity", make sure that your solarpanels are covered up...

[KirraMisha]

If you have a CC license and need to charge your batteries heat water and have diesel central heating would'nt moving your boat at the same time count as 100% anyway as you have to run the engine?

It all sounds a bit nonsensical to me.

[Matthew Dowson]

You run your engine two hours a day, to charge batteries. That is 28 hours over a 14 day period. You then move one to two hour to the next mooring on your cruise. That is somewhere around 5 to 10 % propulsion.

I would argue that the first 2 hrs of a cruise are also domestic as you're heating your water and recharging batts, you just happen to be moving.

[Rebotco]

If you have a CC license and need to charge your batteries heat water and have diesel central heating would'nt moving your boat at the same time count as 100% anyway as you have to run the engine?

It all sounds a bit nonsensical to me.

 

 

So It boils down to .......

 

If you're in neutral = cheaper fuel.

If you're in gear = dearer fuel.

 

What a strange world our politicians inhabit!

[matty40s]

If you have a CC license and need to charge your batteries heat water and have diesel central heating would'nt moving your boat at the same time count as 100% anyway as you have to run the engine?

It all sounds a bit nonsensical to me.

 

It may do, and yes, it's probably nonsensical, yes.

However, I don't need to cruise for 10 hours for a tank of hot water and rarely use the diesel central heating therefore to declare the fact that a 10 hour cruise was just for domestic would be taking the urine.

I would rather declare some kind of split and not end up in one of those "to be investigated" files when they finally get a round tuit.

[Naughty Cal]

We have never really bothered to work out our "split" and just tend to claim the suggested 60/40. I expect it probably works out in our favour.

[Ex- Member]

That's the tanker operator's risk if they are delivering directly to your boat. They probably don't realise it but they are breaking the law. If they are not delivering directly to the boat, then you are breaking the law by not making a declaration. You may well get away with it, but do be aware of the fact.

 

 

The supplier is at no risk what so ever, they simply supply what the customer requires, Its the purchaser is the one who is responsible for how the fuel is used and any declarations that might need to be made on it's use. I also have fuel supplied by tanker or drum, last delivery was 60 odd p per litre, although I have to transfer it to the boat tanks.

 

 

[luctor et emergo]

We have never really bothered to work out our "split" and just tend to claim the suggested 60/40. I expect it probably works out in our favour.

 

 

The 60/40 split was initially suggested by HMRC, when they considered the "typical" leisure boat, typically moored up and only used to cruise away from it's mooring. They did not consider the concept of moving around on a boat, whilst living on it. That is when the "self declaration" was introduced. Liveaboards on a permanent (online)mooring can declare 100% if they only move a short distance to get water. If they decide to go on an occasional cruise, they of course need to declare for relevant propulsion.

[KirraMisha]

It may do, and yes, it's probably nonsensical, yes.

However, I don't need to cruise for 10 hours for a tank of hot water and rarely use the diesel central heating therefore to declare the fact that a 10 hour cruise was just for domestic would be taking the urine.

I would rather declare some kind of split and not end up in one of those "to be investigated" files when they finally get a round tuit.

If you were a CC cruising for 2 hours it would be acceptable to claim its for battery charging and therefore domestic use surely?

 

The 60/40 split was initially suggested by HMRC, when they considered the "typical" leisure boat, typically moored up and only used to cruise away from it's mooring. They did not consider the concept of moving around on a boat, whilst living on it. That is when the "self declaration" was introduced. Liveaboards on a permanent (online)mooring can declare 100% if they only move a short distance to get water. If they decide to go on an occasional cruise, they of course need to declare for relevant propulsion.

I think thats the kind of point I would also make.

[Domino_2]

We spoke with one red diesel supplier who had been visited by HMRC. They looked at his carefully filed copies of declarations and said thank you very much and tossed them in the bin (well said he would bin them when back at the office). The HMRC man said that as long as the diesel supplier could show that he had been getting some declarations signed they were happy - they haven't got the time, money, man power or inclination to follow up even 1% of the declarations.

[magpie patrick]

The guidance states that anyone with a CC licence (their term) can not declare 100% domestic. Also bearing in mind the state does occasionally put 2 and 2 together, anyone living on a boat on a leisure mooring rather than a residential mooring would be wise not to declare 0%. I can see it now, having had the planning conditions enforced and at appeal...

 

"Now Mr Tweedle, you claim is that although you live on your boat the mooring is only a base and you actually spend much of the year cruising, thus the mooring itself is not used for residential purposes.

 

May I present your declarations for domestic/propulsion split on your fuel for the last two years...

 

Now which is it Mr Tweedle, you don't live at the mooring or you are guilty of tax evasion"

 

I know the chances are very small, but the consequences are not funny. I've seen similar questions asked in appeals before now, when someone has thought they could have it both ways.

 

The idea that a CC licence holder can not declare 100% domestic suggests also that when the boat is under way the primary use of the fuel is propulsion, as far as taxation is concerned. The taxmans view is probably that you are moving the boat, and any electrical charge etc is a fringe benefit not the primary use of the fuel.

 

On getting your fuel from someone who seems oblivious to the tax laws regarding boats: it depends. The guidance relates to registered distributors of controlled oils who sell fuel to non-commercial boat owners. Most Red Diesel is sold to farms, fishing vessels etc and many suppliers will hardly ever, if ever, encounter selling the stuff to a leisure boater. Also, the company that provides a boatyard with diesel isn't liable. It is the boatyard, the last point of sale, that is responsible.

 

If the oil company is aware that their tankers are making delivery direct to boats (a very unusual situation) then they are breaking the law. If you are putting the fuel into a holding tank without declaring that it's next stop is a boat, so that the tanker driver thinks he is delivering to a user authorised to use the stuff at the lower tax rate, then you are breaking the law on more counts than I care to count up.

 

Chances are you won't get caught, but please don't complain if you do.

[ditchcrawler]

Interesting on the tv the other night. Coustoms stopped a man leaving the country with 4K in his money belt. They asked him if he had filled a tax return in that year. Checked his tax declarations and gave him a choice. Stay in the UK and have a tax investigation or hand over the 4K

[Domino_2]

The guidance states that anyone with a CC licence (their term) can not declare 100% domestic. Also bearing in mind the state does occasionally put 2 and 2 together, anyone living on a boat on a leisure mooring rather than a residential mooring would be wise not to declare 0%.

 

 

Whilst we aren't CC licence holders, we live on our boat. We have a separate tank for Diesel oil for our heating stove. Are we expected to declare that a % of this fuel might be siphoned out of that tank and used for propulsion? It should be totally up to the purchaser what % they declare. I was under the impression the 60/40 is mere guidance and not set in stone; so it annoys me when some boatyards will only sell on a 60/40 split - its just laziness on their part - they don't want to do any other type of calculation.

[magpie patrick]

Whilst we aren't CC licence holders, we live on our boat. We have a separate tank for Diesel oil for our heating stove. Are we expected to declare that a % of this fuel might be siphoned out of that tank and used for propulsion? It should be totally up to the purchaser what % they declare. I was under the impression the 60/40 is mere guidance and not set in stone; so it annoys me when some boatyards will only sell on a 60/40 split - its just laziness on their part - they don't want to do any other type of calculation.

 

No, the rule only applies to boats with a single tank that does everything, and is intended for when the engine performs a multitude of tasks such as propulsion, heating and electricity. If the diesel is going into tank for a heater or a generator for domestic purposes only then 0% is fine

[jelunga]

Whilst we aren't CC licence holders, we live on our boat. We have a separate tank for Diesel oil for our heating stove. Are we expected to declare that a % of this fuel might be siphoned out of that tank and used for propulsion? It should be totally up to the purchaser what % they declare. I was under the impression the 60/40 is mere guidance and not set in stone; so it annoys me when some boatyards will only sell on a 60/40 split - its just laziness on their part - they don't want to do any other type of calculation.

Your heatibg oil stove should be at 0% propulsion. Your other tank for the engine provides all yr lighting and water heating I assume. I think 40% propulsion would be fair?

[Guest]

This reminds me of the last time I bought diesel and we were discussing the 'split'.

 

The vendor said to me - 'Do you know last week we even had somebody declare 100% propulsion' in utter disbelief...

 

"er that would be because he will likely have 2 different tanks" I said "and he was obviously just filling his propulsion tank and he was being honest..."

 

I still don't think he understood.

[ditchcrawler]

Your heatibg oil stove should be at 0% propulsion. Your other tank for the engine provides all yr lighting and water heating I assume. I think 40% propulsion would be fair?

But you still have to find a yard that is happy to sell at those ratios. Most will but as you say, some wont shift from 40/60

[PaulG]

If I remember correctly, at the time that the duty increase was being brought in, HMRC said that duty on boat fuel represented about 0.06% of the total duty payable on diesel in the UK, and that their enforcement effort would be proportional to this. It's such a relatively small amount of money that it is hardly worth their trouble in collecting it.

[Guest]

C'mon guys. Stop discussing this on an open fourm.

[jelunga]

Not saying another wor...............

[Ex- Member]

I really don't understand why boaters have such a problem with the percentage they use for propulsion. If you want to be exacting simply log the hours you spend propelling the boat and times that by an average hourly fuel consumption rate for that particular engine. Personally I would deduct engine running time waiting or queuing at locks as you are only required to pay duty on propulsion, and might well switch off the engine whilst in a queue if your batteries didn't need further charging.

 

Anyone in their right mind would declare the minimum possible based on logged propulsion time, it then can't be argued with or proven to be false if the fuel consumption figures are fair.

 

I would certainly avoid outlets that insist on a split like 60/40 it has nothing to do with the seller how much you might or might not use for propulsion, the purchaser signs the declaration and is responsible for how the fuel is used. you might well have filled your tank last time around at full duty and are simply want to claw back what you are due after calculating your actual propulsion usage on that last tank of fuel.

[big hull trev]

I'd like to lay one myth to bed. My diesel at Stowe Hill is currently 90.9p. That makes the propulsion rate about 142p. The garages around here range from 146.9 to 149.9. Anyone going to a garage for their boat diesel is not doing the maths.

 

 

is that white or red ? plz

[bottle]

It will be red in colour.