Passing Boats

[mykaskin]

I thought I would start a new topic rather than filling up an un-related one. Alan Fincher said:

 

 

But our recent trip did highlight that many "modern boaters" felt that they should hang on to at least half the cut when passing, and I should still have to keep feet from them. I lost count of the number of times I was grinding along the shallows, just because a leisure boat saw no need to give me enough water to float in.

 

 

Actually with Victoria I tend to have the opposite problem, and boaters heading through the trees rather than get near.

 

The thing is that people give each other too much room when passing. The channel is nearly always wide enough to get two working boats past without problems, so what is actually happening to cause these problems.

 

1. Just too nice - people not wanted to be shown as a baddy for hogging the channel move over too far, this then can mean they find themselves either on the mud for deeper boats, or in the trees for shallower ones.
   
2. Not nice enough - I have a boat which disparages this, but even then occasionally I get someone more or less down the centre of the cut. The trick is that you don't need to move over until you've reached the other boat, doing so is dangerous (the suction could pull your fore-end back out for example) - so while it looks like a game of chicken, usually with 10-20 foot distance both boats pull to the right by 3.5 foot giving the space to pass. This is the correct way.
   
3. Half way house - this is the strategy I usually employ. If the other boat is moving well over I pull over as far as is safe to do so. This hopefully gives the other boat an out if they find vegetation in the way without overly looking like I'm hogging the channel.
   

 

Now, I know I'm lucky with Victoria as it has rounded chines which helps it slide of the mud - but then so does Alan, so I think he may be falling into the "too nice" trap.

 

Comments Alan?

 

BTW - There is a game on the Houston Ship Channel (not canal - but same issues) called Texas Chicken, they teach it at academies:

 

 

and for real (best seen at 4mins):

 

 

Of course only recently has these effects been known about in shipping, canal boaters have been doing it for over 100 years!

 

Cheers,

 

Mike

Edited April 18, 2012 by mykaskin

[Chris Pink]

Proper training. End of.

 

to amplify a little.

 

I keep to the centre of the channel, turn at the appropriate time and I'm usually back in the centre channel within half a boat's length. I do this regardless. I am as likely to be towing as not.

 

The oncoming boat has three choices;

 

1. the same as me

2. they can move over more than they need and stay in enough water

3. they can move over more than they need and get stuck

 

(i forgot number 4)

 

4. panic and go broadside

 

If the oncoming boat has a problem of perception with this, it's not really my place to point out the deficiency of their technique though given the chance I am happy to do so in a polite and non-controntational way.

 

oh and I don't think this is an issue of draft, it is simply good practice.

[n.b.Goldie]

Proper training. End of.

 

How? By compulsory licensing of all steerers with training to gain said license?

 

I would say most leisure boaters have no idea of how to pass an oncoming boat and are not much interested in learning the correct way.

 

Regards

Ditchdabbler

 

 

[Chris Pink]

 

I would say most leisure boaters have no idea of how to pass an oncoming boat and are not much interested in learning the correct way.

 

surely that is their problem, not mine?

[n.b.Goldie]

surely that is their problem, not mine?

 

 

Absolutely their problem, ignorance is not always bliss.

[Chris Pink]

 

Now, I know I'm lucky with Victoria as it has rounded chines which helps it slide of the mud - but then so does Alan, so I think he may be falling into the "too nice" trap.

 

 

 

is that right?

 

My experience has always been that round chines (in extremis a yacht) get stuck more easily because of a greater surface area on the mud and no hard chine to pivot on. I had a cornish crabber on the canal some years ago that was an absolute nightmare for getting stuck.

[alan_fincher]

I do think, Mike, yes, there is perhaps a degree of the "too nice" in me when out with Sickle.

 

However I am concious of the considerable bad press that some "historic boat" owners attract, (I'd say sometimes with some justification, if I'm honest), so as I'm not generally in a huge rush, I'd rather not add to people's negative views about those who prefer old deep draughted boats.

 

I do however, think there is probably a very different vision in many boaters' minds when "Victoria" is bearing down on them, 71' 6" long, fully clothed, and with bow high out of the water, from the one they get when they see "Sickle", the "floating patio", a squat looking "little" thing just 40 feet long. (Cath says she looks like a comfortable old slipper!).

 

I probably haven't found the best photos to demonstrate the point, but I suspect in many inexperienced people's eyes this......

 

 

looks considerably more frightening than this.....

 

 

and the fact that unladen, they probably both need a similar depth of water to stay floating in is lost on those seeing either coming towards them.

 

In conversation, the uninitiated seem to think Sickle is a "little boat" - I don't think they realise how much of her they can't see.

 

As an aside, I can't believe the number of people expressing surprise at her width in narrow locks, (very obvious because of the "patio area". Several people said - but yours only just fits - ours has inches of clear space down both sides. Errm, well actually we know that, as we have a modern boat as well!

Edited April 18, 2012 by alan_fincher

[mykaskin]

is that right?

 

My experience has always been that round chines (in extremis a yacht) get stuck more easily because of a greater surface area on the mud and no hard chine to pivot on. I had a cornish crabber on the canal some years ago that was an absolute nightmare for getting stuck.

 

A common Josher trick on shallow muddy corners (like found on the Ashby for example) is to rub the chine in the mud, this drags the boat around the corner. Going to the outside and using suction to pull the stern around means that the outside edge can get caught on the mud and put you wrong.

 

While it's true that Victoria does tend to suck it's backside up the mud, it will happily slide back off again. I think it's more of a case of how hard the chine cuts into the mud - possibly a slightly different issue on yachts which are all curves?

 

A very poor diagram:

 

Mike

[Athy]

I know what you mean. In our first few years' boating I had a lingering suspicion that all approaching Town Class (and similar) vessels wanted to eat ours*. The bow of a Town Class is still high up on the list of things which I do not wish to see when approaching a bridge on a blind bend. The side elevation of a Canaltime boat is high on that same list.

 

* More recently I felt likewise about peniches on the Canal du Midi!

[alan_fincher]

I can confirm that whilst Sickle's round chines cause other issues, (principally actually staying on board, if too many people step on the same side at the same time!), they do make her very much better than the average working narrow boat for slipping back off the mud once on it.

 

So far, despite being a novice, I have only ended up properly stuck anywhere a couple of times, a pleasing, (but unexpected), result.

 

The fact we neither have a long shaft, nor indeed really the capability to carry one ready to deploy easily, makes me very glad this is the case!

 

I do actually think if I had held my line in one or two of the "play chicken" situations I found myself in over the last couple of weeks, that the other boats would not have moved over, and I might have put a dent in them, but unless you push it each time, that can only ever remain a feeling.

 

Also, I guess I need to decide if I'm going to be courting boater votes in future elections, before I decide to make greater claims for enough of the channel for myself! Or I could get a replica of the original ice-ram put back on, to be like Tycho again. That cause a few more to give me extra space!

 

Picture: Matt Parrott or Derek Reynolds

 

Edited April 18, 2012 by alan_fincher

[Guest]

Just my two cents worth -

 

Prior to gaining the knowledge on here (all be it obvious when you think about it logically) that an older deep drafted boat needed the centre of the channel I possibly/probably would have assumed a degree of arrogance on the part of the skipper in my early days as a leisure boater/hirer. I think unfortunately a lot of leisure boaters will still believe this.

 

Reading on here and with more experience and knowing that it is nothing of the sort I am aware of the need to give these old boats the centre of the channel. It is the same as boating up here were you give the big commercial boats the deep channel, sometimes meaning you have to be ready to pass them on the 'wrong' side on bends if they ask you to.

 

It is certainly something I don't ever recall being covered by anybody who we ever hired from so it's unsurprising that hirers may fall foul of this.

 

As for passing - well I know the theory about staying 'face on' with the boat coming the other way and then them skirting around them at the last minute but have always felt that would be perceived as my being arrogant as I'm not always sure the skipper of the boat coming the other way will be aware of this technique.

[cheshire~rose]

I certainly had no idea about deep draughted boats requiring the centre of the channel in the days when we hired and so I hope all the boats/crew we caused problems to in that time can forgive me!

It was only much later when I joined this forum and started getting the opportunity to take the tiller of a few boats that are slightly more extreme than your average hire boat I even realised how essential it is for them.

If you are steering a big Woolwich no one is going to argue with you as your bow comes through a bridge hole but not all deep draughted boats have the same "scare" ability If a boat is fully laden it will also be less imposing at the bow but require even more depth of water.

As an uneducated steerer it is all to easy to assume that he boat coming the other direction will move over and when it does not you can then over react and end up getting into a silly place. It also has a feeling of arrogance if you also try to stay in the middle and pass really close and it can feel quite intimidating to the inexperienced steerer.

 

I have just thought about how best to advise hirers and novice steerers how to handle the situationa and I feel perhaps to think about the canal like a motorway with invisible lane dividers but the area closest to the side is a hard shoulder and should only be steered onto in the case of an emergency. (or when mooring) That makes it mush more acceptable to pass other boats closely

[MoominPapa]

At least if you're at the tiller of an old boat, you can expect the steerers coming the other way to have some idea that you might be deep and need the channel. Melaleuca is 2' 10" deep, but looks modern. Unless people notice the lowish roof-line and slow exhaust note, they have no clue. I just set my face and plough on up the middle......

 

 

MP.

[Chris Pink]

 

I have just thought about how best to advise hirers and novice steerers how to handle the situationa and I feel perhaps to think about the canal like a motorway with invisible lane dividers but the area closest to the side is a hard shoulder and should only be steered onto in the case of an emergency. (or when mooring) That makes it mush more acceptable to pass other boats closely

 

I am afraid this is a misconception - and I tend to think of it as 'car thinking' You don't need to move over until the last moment. There is no invisible lane divider as, until the moment of passing both boats should be in the centre of the channel.

 

 

I do actually think if I had held my line in one or two of the "play chicken" situations I found myself in over the last couple of weeks, that the other boats would not have moved over, and I might have put a dent in them, but unless you push it each time, that can only ever remain a feeling.

 

 

It's my considerable experience that if you change course at the right moment it is not possible for the oncoming boat to hit you. This is a combination of your course and the tendency of boats to push each other apart.

 

You are very welcome to come a play chicken with me to practice.

 

 

Prior to gaining the knowledge on here (all be it obvious when you think about it logically) that an older deep drafted boat needed the centre of the channel I possibly/probably would have assumed a degree of arrogance on the part of the skipper in my early days as a leisure boater/hirer. I think unfortunately a lot of leisure boaters will still believe this.

 

 

There will always be people who jump to the most confrontational conclusion rather than thinking "why did he do that" without emotion.

[Athy]

Just my two cents worth -

 

Prior to gaining the knowledge on here (all be it obvious when you think about it logically) that an older deep drafted boat needed the centre of the channel I possibly/probably would have assumed a degree of arrogance on the part of the skipper in my early days as a leisure boater/hirer. I think unfortunately a lot of leisure boaters will still believe this.

 

 

Ditto: in our early hiring days we occasionally met boats which seemed determined to stay in the middle, and I remember thinking "Bluddy road 'ogs" or the like. Some possibly were just bluddy road 'ogs, but one day a nice man in his steering position about ten feet behind a big chugging green lump explained to me, pleasantly, that his was an old boat , was deep draughted, and would get stuck if it ventured too near to the side.

He's quite possibly a member of this forum (can't remember the boat's name as I was too busy panicking and getting out of its way). Whoever you are, a belated thanks for the lesson.

[Guest]

There will always be people who jump to the most confrontational conclusion rather than thinking "why did he do that" without emotion.

 

Sadly Chris not everybody is perfect, I posted honestly as to what I would have thought at the time and to point out without the knowledge I now have through experience and reading stuff on here that it is nothing like arrogance on their part at all.

 

I do think this attitude (and an unwillingness to learn and change it) is often at the root of historic boat owners getting jip for stuff that they have no choice about.

[Chris Pink]

So Martin, what do you suggest boat owners (and as I say draught is not relevant) do to educate someone coming towards them on the canal?

[bizzard]

I agree with the move over at the last moment and pass each other close to BUT,i've given up the last moment bit but do try to pass close to.Moving over at the last moment confuses most oncoming ordinary private leisure boaters into having doubts as to which side you intend to pass and can and do pull over to the wrong side in a panic going for the starboard to starboard pass just as you pull over to port to pass.A head on collision becomes inevitable ''BANG'' in this situation. Its far safer to pull over early.

[alan_fincher]

You are very welcome to come a play chicken with me to practice.

Do you have any GRP boats ?

[Chris Pink]

As you may be able to tell I'm a little under employed today and it's raining outside.

 

I expect any boat, not just deep draughted ones, to approach me like this. As I say, it's not really my problem if they don't.

 

My reaction is always the same.

 

Even if they have moved more than 7 feet over I still give the same amount of way as I pass. To stay on course would be arrogance, in my opinion.

[Guest]

So Martin, what do you suggest boat owners (and as I say draught is not relevant) do to educate someone coming towards them on the canal?

 

I'm not sure I'm understanding your question but - Surely the onus is on boaters to learn and understand the 'rules of the road' themselves rather than expect other boaters to give it to them.

 

 

 

 

Chris - surely those boats should be passing on the other side

 

 

ah that's better -

Edited April 18, 2012 by MJG

[Athy]

It occurs to me, Chris, that the majority of novice boaters have had some experience of driving on roads, where staying too close to the middle when passing other vehicles is often regarded as roadery-hoggery, so they think of middle-path-steering boats in the same way.

In the same way, some new boaters who are used to driving road vehicles find it hard to adapt to the idea that if you push the tiller to the right, the boat goes to the left. A friend of ours, a vastly experienced HGV driver, had this problem the first time that he had a go on our boat. But he learned quickly, and the number of GRP boats which he sank during the learning process was really very small.

You must have had fun pushing those pencils around your desk and lining them up to have their photos taken.

[Chris Pink]

It occurs to me, Chris, that the majority of novice boaters have had some experience of driving on roads, where staying too close to the middle when passing other vehicles is often regarded as roadery-hoggery, so they think of middle-path-steering boats in the same way.

In the same way, some new boaters who are used to driving road vehicles find it hard to adapt to the idea that if you push the tiller to the right, the boat goes to the left. A friend of ours, a vastly experienced HGV driver, had this problem the first time that he had a go on our boat. But he learned quickly, and the number of GRP boats which he sank during the learning process was really very small.

You must have had fun pushing those pencils around your desk and lining them up to have their photos taken.

 

Very early in my boating experience I was in Bristol docks (wide) headed for a pontoon on the port side and as the docks were empty I was pootling along that side when the harbour master came over in his launch and shouted "are you a car driver?". It took me ages to work out what he meant.

[lexicon]

hmm interesting discussion.

 

I think at times it comes down to experience.

I was lucky that my first experiences on a nb were a 50ft cruiser drawing 3 feet. so i always assumed there were boats that needed the channel. so in my 1ft 9 draft im inclined to move further over as i know its rare i will get stuck.

 

I think it is unreasonable to expect everyone to know the reasons behind a steerers actions as we cant be mind readers and just have to react the best we can to the situations we find ourselves in out on the cut.

 

of course if we can be pleasant and spread the knowledge then the next person might be better equipped.

[Chris Pink]

I'm not sure I'm understanding your question but - Surely the onus is on boaters to learn and understand the 'rules of the road' themselves rather than expect other boaters to give it to them.

 

 

 

Chris - surely those boats should be passing on the other side

 

 

Well exactly so.

 

So any assumption of arrogance is purely in the eye of the beholder. It is never wise to jump to conclusions.

 

And it would, in my opinion, be wrong, to not use the correct technique because someone might be offended in their ignorance.

 

I don't mind explaining my boat is deep draughted but the whole of the manoeuvre is beyond the scope of a passing conversation.

 

(yes, you're right)

 

 

 

I think at times it comes down to experience.

 

 

no, it comes down to education.

 

experience on its own will never get you there.