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At some point you're going to have to decide if you're running a museum or a business.

 

What you have to weigh up is, would the likes of me come back to Middlewich again if your boats were all the same style as I could hire from any other hire company in the country..... :closedeyes:

 

As subsequent posts have developed, I don't think its necessarily down to them being traditional boats, but the general standard of the boats and customer service, which drives repeat customers. Look at the likes of Anglo Welsh or Black Prince, a large percentage of their hirers are return customers, but the boats aren't anything special - they just get the basics right, which means a reliable, easy-to-use boat, with a good quality interior fitout, very clean and everything working. And its not just because they're large multi-base operations - smaller firms such as Chas Hardern also attract good repeat custom, despite their location.

 

 

 

 

I believe the customers you are currently attracting are probably first timers (to Middlewich, not necessarily to boating) who know nothing of the company's recent past. These types are the ones least likely to settle for the idiosyncracies of Maple.

 

I get that impression too. I'd be quite happy to hire a traditional boat, I'll put up with the idiosyncracies but what puts me off is the horror stories of unreliability, the tired paintwork (and yes, it was a repainted boat I saw!), the diesel cookers and the general impression of neglect that the fleet seems to have suffered. Hire boats have a tough life, they wear out, and there's a reason why other hire firms regularly replace their boats so that they're never more than about 3-5 years old.

 

There is a good opportunity of hiring traditional STYLE but modern (in age) boats with none of the previous reliability issues, tiredness, etc and I'm sure a business model similar to other hirers where boats are bought new, fitted out with hiring in mind then sold on when they've still got some value attached to them could work.

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I know this may seem rude, but I'm hoping the OP wants honesty, rather than relying on what they admit is not enough takers for the boats as they are currently presented and marketed.

To me, Alan, it does not seem rude in the slightest. From his first post on CWF some months ago, Chuggy siad that he wanted honest answers, and by gosh, he (or rather the company he took over) took some stick in the ensuing weeks, but he still comes back to seek our opinions. I respect that - he could have sulked and flounced off after all.

Paul, I hear what you're saying, but there are hire fleets around which have older boats that look smart. Union Canal carriers have some which have chunky traditional lines and which can't be that new - at least a couple of them still have Sabb engines. Their colour scheme makes them look a bit like battleships, but I see them out and about on the Oxford very often, so they must be populat with hirers.

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Please don't get rid of Holly, we had one of our nicest holidays in Holly and loved keeping warm in the back cabin with the stove going - at least it was easier and quicker to cook on than that awful diesel stove that should be the first thing to go! Yes it could do with some tidying up and cleaning of the engine room but was a really nice boat and just perfect for the 2 of us in winter. Would definitely consider hiring Holly again if that diesel cooker was replaced with gas and if our own boat is not finished soon! Getting withdrawal symptoms of not being on the water for over 12 months.

 

Please don't get rid of Holly but tidy her up. With some traditional decoration and possible refit of main cabin and I'm sure with careful marketing you would get plenty of customers for her. We also loved the long cratch with level floor and had several other boaters comment on it including one who was getting their boat modified having seen Holly previously.

 

We wish you good luck with the company and really hope you can keep at least some of the traditional but basic boats. Tidy clean appearance and targeted marketing and they should do well. I agree with other posters that the run down tatty look of the boats has affected custom more than the basic idea of the boats - its the only holiday when the handover included showing us where the tools were kept to make any repairs that might be needed!

 

Tom and Becky

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Please don't get rid of Holly, we had one of our nicest holidays in Holly and loved keeping warm in the back cabin with the stove going - at least it was easier and quicker to cook on than that awful diesel stove that should be the first thing to go! Yes it could do with some tidying up and cleaning of the engine room but was a really nice boat and just perfect for the 2 of us in winter. Would definitely consider hiring Holly again if that diesel cooker was replaced with gas and if our own boat is not finished soon! Getting withdrawal symptoms of not being on the water for over 12 months.

 

Please don't get rid of Holly but tidy her up. With some traditional decoration and possible refit of main cabin and I'm sure with careful marketing you would get plenty of customers for her. We also loved the long cratch with level floor and had several other boaters comment on it including one who was getting their boat modified having seen Holly previously.

 

We wish you good luck with the company and really hope you can keep at least some of the traditional but basic boats. Tidy clean appearance and targeted marketing and they should do well. I agree with other posters that the run down tatty look of the boats has affected custom more than the basic idea of the boats - its the only holiday when the handover included showing us where the tools were kept to make any repairs that might be needed!

 

Tom and Becky

 

Tom, Becky,

All of your suggestions have already been done, I had to do this before I sent out the boat this season. The hirers love the new gas oven but this does not change the reality that there are few hirers that are prepared to make up all of the beds every night. This is the crux of what I am asking you all. Thanks for all of your responses

 

Which two, out of the three, have been most popular with your customers?

 

If you have your 'books' from the past couple of years which 2 have been hired out the most? You should then get your answer :)

There is little difference from the scant records I do have.

Thanks

 

It may be a good idea to revisit your website as there is no mention that it has been under NEW MANAGEMENT for over a year

 

Middlewich Narrowboats, traditional narrow boat hire holidays since 1971

Narrow boat hire from Middlewich Narrowboats Narrow boat hire from Middlewich NarrowboatsOur company has been running since 1971, and we are a small family run business. Every customer will be dealt with by a member of staff. We are not a central booking office.

We have a variety of narrow boat hire boats from fully modernised narrow boats with facilities for ipods and games consoles etc, to fully traditional style narrow boats with traditional style boatman's cabins with solid stoves and authentic canalboat engines.

All of our staff have in depth knowledge of the boats and the waterways. We are at the very hub of the famous, historic canal system of the North West and from our base - 3 main routes radiate, see our Cheshire Ring, Four Counties Ring and Llangollen Canal Routes pages

 

The impression created is that it is still run by the previous owners

 

Website is on the "to do list", boats are the priority. Unfortunately the current site is cumbersome and difficult to change but it is being done piece by piece ahead of a new site in the future.

Thanks

Greg

 

Maybe he wasn't thinking of hiring a trad style boat. Why would he hear about it if he wasn't looking for it?

Both good points in terms of marketing for me to think about.

Thanks

 

See which have been booked more than once by the same person.

They each seem to have their own small cult following. Maple perhaps a little more than most.

thanks

 

What you have to weigh up is, would the likes of me come back to Middlewich again if your boats were all the same style as I could hire from any other hire company in the country..... :closedeyes:

 

As I've mentioned here previously I've hired 'Maple' several times and 'Larch' the once. Loved everything about Maple. The layout, the character, the handling (though not the breakdowns.... :rolleyes:), Larch on the other hand was far to twee for our crew's liking. We have a background of crewing ex working narrow boats and did chuckle at that sink in the table cupboard... :rolleyes: .

 

I believe there is a demand for this type of boat. The problem is that Middlewich have lost the goodwill of the likes of me and my friends as regular, return hirers, through their reputation of scruffy appearance and breakdowns, that and the dreadful diesel stoves.....

 

I believe the customers you are currently attracting are probably first timers (to Middlewich, not necessarily to boating) who know nothing of the company's recent past. These types are the ones least likely to settle for the idiosyncracies of Maple.

 

I feel that if you rebuild the boats to an acceptable standard, or replace with new build to a similar traditional character (Maple that is, not Larch), and repair the company's reputation, then my type will be beating a trail to your door.... :cheers:

You have the essence of what I am doing in your post. Question is, which boats should I spend the time and effort on. I don’t think the market can stand all of them.

Thanks for your comments

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To me, Alan, it does not seem rude in the slightest. From his first post on CWF some months ago, Chuggy siad that he wanted honest answers, and by gosh, he (or rather the company he took over) took some stick in the ensuing weeks, but he still comes back to seek our opinions. I respect that - he could have sulked and flounced off after all.

Paul, I hear what you're saying, but there are hire fleets around which have older boats that look smart. Union Canal carriers have some which have chunky traditional lines and which can't be that new - at least a couple of them still have Sabb engines. Their colour scheme makes them look a bit like battleships, but I see them out and about on the Oxford very often, so they must be populat with hirers.

 

Hired 'Clent' from UCC last week. Their boats are around 20 years old, according to one of the staff.

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Yeah dump 'em, I'll look after one for you and I won't even charge :P

 

I hired Willow in 2008, it had concrete slabs opposite the engine in an attempt to stop it listing.

Most boats do have lumps of concrete or pig iron in to ballast, not usually in the corridor though! Hence why she has had a good refit (inc oven of course) but I want to go to town with the ones I keep.

Thanks for your comments

 

As for Dumping them...you’re soulless...ha ha, no there really is a desire for these boats, just not a very big one.

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Willow is the best handling boat I've steered. We hired her on three occasions. It is a really nice middle sized boat. We also hired Holly and enjoyed her and my elder daughter spent her honeymoon on her. I have no experience of Maple but Chris Cliff had a great photo of her on the Thames passing the Palace of Westminster on the office wall.

It is obvious that all three boats need a lot of work to tidy them up and to meet hirers expectations which Greg is well aware of. If the trad boats look well cared for hirers will take pride in them and look after them. Chris always had a tub of brasso and rags on board the boats - he sent them out with gleaming brass and expected them back in the same condition and that included the big brass air inlets on the wooden tops for the air cooled Listers.

My gut feeling is keep Holly but replace the engine with a modern one - possibly with hydraulic drive so that it can be off centre and boxed in. Also keep Willow because inherently it is a sound boat and will appeal to couples etc who want a trad boat and market it properly. Maple is an odd boat and I'm sure she would quickly find a buyer who would refit her.

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Might I suggest that maybe it would be a good idea to give your potential customers what they want.

That's exactly what i'm doing. It is now clearer to the customers if it's a modern boat or if it's in the old style, but the heritage fleet needs to be more diamonds, castles and roses.

 

I would not get rid of 'Holly'. All the other Heritage boats are very long, so 'Holly' at 47 feet gives a wider choice to hirers, especially those who would be nervous of taking something 60+ feet long along the canals. That would include me, as I have never steered a boat longer than 47 feet.

You should come and take maple out buddy, she handles better than half of the shorter boats ive hired, Willows not far off either.

 

Hi

 

You have to give joe public what they want to a certain extent. I would never hire one as for me engine rooms are a pain in the butt. However there are a minority of people out there who do like them and I for one didnt even know you had any. I have worked with two hire fleets and been on the canals for over twenty years and didnt know those boats where available. If you decide to keep them perhaps a seperate advertising campaign to target likely hirers rather than as I am guessing you do now and have them in your standard hire literature ? might be an option.

 

Tim

You’re Right that’s why I am asking you folks which are the boats you love to see me invest in. For most of the customers, they’re with you and hire the comfort boats (More modern) for those that think these are little more than floating caravans, which boats do you want to see remaining in the fleet? They can’t all stay for all of the reasons you have all stated.

Great feedback all

Thanks a million

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Hi

 

You have to give joe public what they want to a certain extent. I would never hire one as for me engine rooms are a pain in the butt. However there are a minority of people out there who do like them and I for one didnt even know you had any. I have worked with two hire fleets and been on the canals for over twenty years and didnt know those boats where available. If you decide to keep them perhaps a seperate advertising campaign to target likely hirers rather than as I am guessing you do now and have them in your standard hire literature ? might be an option.

 

Tim

 

Middlewich Narrowboats started out (in the 1960s I believe) as part of the Willow Wren company (which itself was basically the IWA's canal carrying company) with former working boats converted for pleasure use. Over the years these older boats were replaced with new build, character boats, with Maple being the flagship, appealing to customers looking to hire something special.

 

Time marched on and subsequent owners of the company have developed the fleet to include several 'regular' hire boats, the last incumbents continuing this process and dilution of the brand, even dropping the traditional signwriting in favour of self adhesive PVC lettering. The point eventually arrived where the newer boats became the mainstay and the battered remains of the traditional fleet, now perhaps aproaching 30 years old, are a shadow of their former selves.

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If I were still in the market for hiring boats, rather than an owner, I'd still be looking for something like "Willow", which I hired in 2000. I'm no expert in marketing, but have you considered differentiating your product range with a separate identity for Holly, Willow and Larch which perhaps makes it clear that they are something different from the rest of the fleet. Even so, they will still need to be well-presented.

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The trouble with "the heritage" boats is that they dont really stand out as looking like true trad boats, eg the bus windows are a no, no. If you are going to promote the trad idea to customers the boats should look right from the outside, ie nice lines, bow shape, side doors, longer deck etc. Inside boatmans, engine room, stove etc which I appreciate you do have. By doing this customers will feel they are getting a traditional looking and sounding boat, and not a boatyard kidding the customer along using the trad title for some tired old boats claiming to be trad. Sorry but thats how I see it. I would consider keeping 2 only (or at any rate a smaller number) and refurbing them (portholes are essential) including better more elaborate colours, the remainder can go

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Middlewich Narrowboats started out (in the 1960s I believe) as part of the Willow Wren company (which itself was basically the IWA's canal carrying company) with former working boats converted for pleasure use. Over the years these older boats were replaced with new build, character boats, with Maple being the flagship, appealing to customers looking to hire something special.

 

Time marched on and subsequent owners of the company have developed the fleet to include several 'regular' hire boats, the last incumbents continuing this process and dilution of the brand, even dropping the traditional signwriting in favour of self adhesive PVC lettering. The point eventually arrived where the newer boats became the mainstay and the battered remains of the traditional fleet, now perhaps aproaching 30 years old, are a shadow of their former selves.

You’re right.

This is what this exercise needs to address. Ok, so I can’t keep all of the old boats but the demand is there for one or two of them. I have had them in the dry dock their hull condition is fantastic, still shiny under the Comastic. They were built to last. They are better than some of the more modern boats. Good old British Steel I suppose, high quality not like the modern foreign stuff with about 40% rusk or something in it.

 

Thanks for pointing out the historical connections at Middlewich Narrowboats. I love the connection to the origins of the hire boat business and earlier, I am painting the boats with these colours.

http://www.facebook.com/Middlewichboats#!/photo.php?fbid=356065591099462&set=a.301046319934723.69626.287925101246845&type=1&theater

 

This is roughly the same as the Willow Wren Trading Company colours. All the remaining Heritage boats will get this treatment. I could do with a half decent, low cost sign writer really.

 

The trouble with "the heritage" boats is that they dont really stand out as looking like true trad boats, eg the bus windows are a no, no. If you are going to promote the trad idea to customers the boats should look right from the outside, ie nice lines, bow shape, side doors, longer deck etc. Inside boatmans, engine room, stove etc which I appreciate you do have. By doing this customers will feel they are getting a traditional looking and sounding boat, and not a boatyard kidding the customer along using the trad title for some tired old boats claiming to be trad. Sorry but thats how I see it. I would consider keeping 2 only (or at any rate a smaller number) and refurbing them (portholes are essential) including better more elaborate colours, the remainder can go

I mostly agree, but hirers will still want to be able to see out to the counryside behond so a few larger windows are a must, afterall even historical buildings get consent for a few windows. As for the lines etc etc, they come no better than these boats.

Edited by CHUGALONG HIRE COMPANY
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To me, Alan, it does not seem rude in the slightest. From his first post on CWF some months ago, Chuggy siad that he wanted honest answers, and by gosh, he (or rather the company he took over) took some stick in the ensuing weeks, but he still comes back to seek our opinions. I respect that - he could have sulked and flounced off after all.

Paul, I hear what you're saying, but there are hire fleets around which have older boats that look smart. Union Canal carriers have some which have chunky traditional lines and which can't be that new - at least a couple of them still have Sabb engines. Their colour scheme makes them look a bit like battleships, but I see them out and about on the Oxford very often, so they must be populat with hirers.

 

We hired one of those "Sabb" ones

Thouroughly loved the weeks holiday

And the stove came in handy for drying out lol

Wasn't last year I might add.

The engine had a lovely sound to it too

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Much of the Wyvern Shipping fleet is very old too, although I think they may have finally pensioned off all the "wooden-tops", of which several remained until quite recently.

 

I don't know about internally, but in external condition there is very little to separate the very old Wyvern boats from the spanking new ones, other than they seem to have changed from silver finish window frames to gold finish ones. They are all externally pretty immaculate.

 

So there is certainly not a problem with hire boats being very old per-se.

 

Incidentally Wyvern ones that we hired not that many years ago had no double other than that made up from a dinette. Once upon a time, most hire boats were that way, and it didn't bother us at all. But I have just spent the last 2 weeks in a situation where the bed has to be packed away during the day - and you barely have room to move until it has, so perhaps I'm less demanding than the average hirer!

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SNIP.... But I have just spent the last 2 weeks in a situation where the bed has to be packed away during the day - and you barely have room to move until it has, so perhaps I'm less demanding than the average hirer!

 

From my crew's point of view when we've hired Maple in the past, the 'master bedroom' has always been the back cabin, and the right to bag it was strongly fought over...

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Tom, Becky,

All of your suggestions have already been done, I had to do this before I sent out the boat this season. The hirers love the new gas oven but this does not change the reality that there are few hirers that are prepared to make up all of the beds every night. This is the crux of what I am asking you all. Thanks for all of your responses

 

 

There is little difference from the scant records I do have.

Thanks

 

 

 

Website is on the "to do list", boats are the priority. Unfortunately the current site is cumbersome and difficult to change but it is being done piece by piece ahead of a new site in the future.

Thanks

Greg

 

 

Both good points in terms of marketing for me to think about.

Thanks

 

 

They each seem to have their own small cult following. Maple perhaps a little more than most.

thanks

 

 

You have the essence of what I am doing in your post. Question is, which boats should I spend the time and effort on. I don’t think the market can stand all of them.

Thanks for your comments

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Me and my Family are still novices to the canals....but we have hired from Middlewich twice....our first time was on Cherry....we had a fantasic holiday and had no problems with either the company or the boat.

Yes the boat was a little tatty....but everything worked, and it suited us as novices.

In April this year we came back to Middlewich....without hesitation to hire Rowan for a week.

Again the boat was a bit tatty....but very clean and very functional and was just right for our needs ( and price ).

We could see a more vibrant company...with excellent customer service and again we had a fantastic holiday.

Although we have not booked a holiday through any other company, and therfore can't comment on their qualities....we did like speaking to a person from the actual company rather than a booking agent.

We would return to Middlewich without doubt...and look forward to another fantastic holiday....Thanks.

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Greg, we hired Willow in October 2008.

 

The main reason being that she was a traditional style boat with, boatman's cabin, separate engine room and "proper" controls, speed wheel etc. She handled beautifully and was a dream to steer. I fancied something different from your average hire craft, she was the first non cruiser stern boat I had steered.

 

However all the above mentioned shortcomings made the reason for hiring pale into insignificance. The two main issues which upset Mrs T was the stink of diesel, slopping in the engine room bilge, which pervaded the whole boat and the wet-room bathroom. Not very pleasant to have a shower in after others have been in with muddy boots.

 

If these were addressed Willow would be a gem to hire and if I were you I would keep her.

 

We now have our own boat now so we are no longer in the hiring market.

 

Best wishes with your endeavours and I hope you have success.

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Have you considered investigating shared ownership of the trad fleet? That might appeal to enthusiasts who can't afford a boat of their own, and would release capital as well as providing revenue.

Good call - worth thinking about.

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As I understand it you have come to the business decision that you can't keep three or more trad hire boats, but in your heart you do want to do so and would be willing to put in time and effort. It is the financial resources that are lacking. As you have apready begun a process dividing operations in to trad and non-trad hire, I would suggest building on this foundation and taking it one step further and seek a different way to finance these craft. You might wish to sell the boats but on the basis that they are leased back on permanent basis for hire (but giving the owner several weeks per year on board). A bond issue might be another way forward, as done by so many heritage railways for example, with some hire available free at point of use for 'investors'. You might set up a 'Friends of...' kind of organisation, although in my experience this might be more trouble than it is worth. You are the custodian of what could be some very fine boats - there will be ways to keep them all and your business afloat. Done well they will be a floating advertisement for your other hire craft.

 

It would be beneficial if you changed the question posed to 'how do I finance non-profit making traditional narrowboat hire?', and go far and wide asking the question, to all of the canal-based media. You might get the perfect answer, and plenty of free publicity while you are at it.

Edited by toffeedanish
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We have used your company several times and first had Willow. We were so enthusiastic we have since had to hire boats with more berths to take others with us! I think there is definitely room in the market for the heritage fleet, but they do need an overhaul. Willows engine was very smelly, and the boatman's cabin wasn't very comfortable. I agree that the diesel stoves are a bit of a pain, but if you installed an inverter and supplied kettle, toaster and microwave it would be ok. We had two springer spaniels, so were quite happy she wasn't too plush! You could make a point of being dog friendly , use lino more and offer dog cages if people need them?

 

The other boats were more modern but also more boring! We have been trying out different styles of boat to help decide what to buy eventually! You could make this a selling point for the company? Maybe offer weeks which let people swop and chop? Or let people have a long winter hire for a reduced rate?

 

You definitely need new bedding to make it more cosy and comfy. We have spoken to other boaters and they none of them knew about your heritage range. Advertise! If you think about the number of people who go mad for the trad boats with lister etc engines - well. pro rata there must be a market for Willow and the others!

 

We booked with you because your prices are easy to understand, no extra for this that and the other, and the location is great with plenty of routes. Your staff have always been lovely, helpful and practical and friendly. But we first found your company on a last minute site, not from your own advertising!

 

Good luck with it all.

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Have you considered investigating shared ownership of the trad fleet? That might appeal to enthusiasts who can't afford a boat of their own, and would release capital as well as providing revenue.

 

Good call - worth thinking about.

 

As I understand it you have come to the business decision that you can't keep three or more trad hire boats, but in your heart you do want to do so and would be willing to put in time and effort. It is the financial resources that are lacking. As you have apready begun a process dividing operations in to trad and non-trad hire, I would suggest building on this foundation and taking it one step further and seek a different way to finance these craft. You might wish to sell the boats but on the basis that they are leased back on permanent basis for hire (but giving the owner several weeks per year on board). A bond issue might be another way forward, as done by so many heritage railways for example, with some hire available free at point of use for 'investors'. You might set up a 'Friends of...' kind of organisation, although in my experience this might be more trouble than it is worth. You are the custodian of what could be some very fine boats - there will be ways to keep them all and your business afloat. Done well they will be a floating advertisement for your other hire craft.

 

It would be beneficial if you changed the question posed to 'how do I finance non-profit making traditional narrowboat hire?', and go far and wide asking the question, to all of the canal-based media. You might get the perfect answer, and plenty of free publicity while you are at it.

 

All of the above are very interesting points. Most of these ideas I have toyed with. I'll do some more thinking on these points....see you on the towpath as you motor by, I’ll be the one with a coffee nipping out to see your boat, if you see me, feel free to join me for a coffee to repay you for your help.

 

We have used your company several times and first had Willow. We were so enthusiastic we have since had to hire boats with more berths to take others with us! I think there is definitely room in the market for the heritage fleet, but they do need an overhaul. Willows engine was very smelly, and the boatman's cabin wasn't very comfortable. I agree that the diesel stoves are a bit of a pain, but if you installed an inverter and supplied kettle, toaster and microwave it would be ok. We had two springer spaniels, so were quite happy she wasn't too plush! You could make a point of being dog friendly , use lino more and offer dog cages if people need them?

 

The other boats were more modern but also more boring! We have been trying out different styles of boat to help decide what to buy eventually! You could make this a selling point for the company? Maybe offer weeks which let people swop and chop? Or let people have a long winter hire for a reduced rate?

 

You definitely need new bedding to make it more cosy and comfy. We have spoken to other boaters and they none of them knew about your heritage range. Advertise! If you think about the number of people who go mad for the trad boats with lister etc engines - well. pro rata there must be a market for Willow and the others!

 

We booked with you because your prices are easy to understand, no extra for this that and the other, and the location is great with plenty of routes. Your staff have always been lovely, helpful and practical and friendly. But we first found your company on a last minute site, not from your own advertising!

 

Good luck with it all.

Lino and a Greek overdraughts worth of new luxury bedding were the first to be done on the fleet. Though I haven’t done any major ripping out, Willow’s already had a significant smarten up, particularly all of the service equipment that would otherwise have caused a breakdown and the new oven of course.

 

 

Thanks everyone for your feedback.

I’ve had a meeting over this weekend with my two brilliant boat builder/joiners.

They want the same as most of you folks. So Willow definitely stays. She’s going to get a full interior makeover. She’s going to have a stove fitted in the front sitting area. So your recommendations gratefully accepted.

Thanks for your good will and support,

Chuggy

Edited by CHUGALONG HIRE COMPANY
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We saw Larch yesterday up on the Bridgewater - she was looking great.

 

Many Many years ago (maybe 15 years ago) my husband hired Holly to see if he enjoyed single handed cruising. Even back then Holly needed TLC. But if it hadn't been for Holly he wouldn't have gone on to buy his own narrowboat. It would a sad day for Holly to retire, but maybe after being stolen and recovered the old girl should enjoy a peaceful retirement. She would make a good starter boat for someone.

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