Pigeon Box Portholes

[David Schweizer]

I have re-furbished the pigeon box on our boat and Ron Hough has decorated it for me. It is now ready for the brassware to be re-attatched, the problem is that, although I have done the job before, it just isn't going right this time. Last time I set the glass into the brass rings with putty and then fitted the portholes to the hinged flaps, but the new putty I have bought just doesn't want to stick to the brass porthole, in fact it doesn't really feel like putty at all, the pot says multi purpose linseed oil putty for wood and metal frames, but it doesn't behave like the traditional putty I am used to.

 

The old stuff I used to use was basicly whiting mixed with linseed oil, and had to be warmed and kneaded to get it pliable, this new stuff is alreadty soft and seems very crumbly and synthetic. I am beginning to get a bit fed up with it and wondered whether the constitution of putty has changed. How have other people sealed the glass into their portholes, is there a silicone product that would do the job, or do I just have to persevere and make a sticky mess?

Edited March 29, 2012 by David Schweizer

[Chris Pink]

I've got some proper putty and also the stuff i'm using which is an oil based mastic (runny putty).

 

I've got a tube you can have if you can pick it up from Bathampton.

 

eta: it's not so very runny. It's what I use for sealing everything, just a bit easier than putty.

 

Have you tried adding a bit of oil to the putty, it might just be past its sell-by date.

[David Schweizer]

I've got some proper putty and also the stuff i'm using which is an oil based mastic (runny putty).

 

I've got a tube you can have if you can pick it up from Bathampton.

 

eta: it's not so very runny. It's what I use for sealing everything, just a bit easier than putty.

 

Have you tried adding a bit of oil to the putty, it might just be past its sell-by date.

That would be very helpfull Chris, the stuff I have was bought recently, in fact I had to wait for it to arrive from the manufacturer, so it is definitely not out of date and certainly does not need an more oil in it.

 

I could get to Bathampton any time tomorrow or over the weekend, perhaps you could PM me with your location and a suggested day and time.

Edited March 29, 2012 by David Schweizer

[Higgs]

I have re-furbished the pigeon box on our boat and Ron Hough has decorated it for me. It is now ready for the brassware to be re-attatched, the problem is that, although I have done the job before, it just isn't going right this time. Last time I set the glass into the brass rings with putty and then fitted the portholes to the hinged flaps, but the new putty I have bought just doesn't want to stick to the brass porthole, in fact it doesn't really feel like putty at all, the pot says multi purpose linseed oil putty for wood and metal frames, but it doesn't behave like the traditional putty I am used to.

 

The old stuff I used to use was basicly whiting mixed with linseed oil, and had to be warmed and kneaded to get it pliable, this new stuff is alreadty soft and seems very crumbly and synthetic. I am beginning to get a bit fed up with it and wondered whether the constitution of putty has changed. How have other people sealed the glass into their portholes, is there a silicone product that would do the job, or do I just have to persevere and make a sticky mess?

 

Hi,

 

I've worked on a reasonable number of pigeon boxes. I seem to remember that they were all tapped with brass screws. However, I don't think you want to go down that route.

 

The way that the glass was set went something like this: With the porthole laying on it's face, you run a bead of silicone inside the rim that the glass sits in. I always found the job messy, but......drop the glass onto the bead of silicone. Have a flat surface handy. Now turn the whole assembly over. The glass will drop to the flat surface which should also bring the glass level with the back face of the porthole. Now that you have a front view, you should now run your finger around the silicone to create a bevelled appearance. Just a finishing touch to the silicone. That should be that, let it set.

 

 

Now, short of tapping some brass screws to hold the porthole to the pigeon box I think I'll just wait and see what other solution may follow.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Higgs

[David Schweizer]

Hi,

 

I've worked on a reasonable number of pigeon boxes. I seem to remember that they were all tapped with brass screws. However, I don't think you want to go down that route.

 

The way that the glass was set went something like this: With the porthole laying on it's face, you run a bead of silicone inside the rim that the glass sits in. I always found the job messy, but......drop the glass onto the bead of silicone. Have a flat surface handy. Now turn the whole assembly over. The glass will drop to the flat surface which should also bring the glass level with the back face of the porthole. Now that you have a front view, you should now run your finger around the silicone to create a bevelled appearance. Just a finishing touch to the silicone. That should be that, let it set.

 

 

Now, short of tapping some brass screws to hold the porthole to the pigeon box I think I'll just wait and see what other solution may follow.

The Hinged sections are all drilled and tapped to take the brass portholes themselves, so that is not an issue, it is sealing the glass which is presenting problems. I used exactly the same method as you describe but using putty instead of silicone. However, the putty is so soft that the glass is not held firmly and moves as soon as I lift the porthole, which should not happen with traditional putty.

 

Chris Pink has offered me some traditional putty, but I do have some clear silicone in the workshop so I may try using some of that to see how it works, and it should set within 30 minutes or so rather than the 28 days predicted on the putty tub!! If it all goes pear shaped I do have some silcone eater to clean up the mess!

[Higgs]

The Hinged sections are all drilled and tapped to take the brass portholes themselves, so that is not an issue, it is sealing the glass which is presenting problems. I used exactly the same method as you describe but using putty instead of silicone. However, the putty is so soft that the glass is not held firmly and moves as soon as I lift the porthole, which should not happen with traditional putty.

 

Chris Pink has offered me some traditional putty, but I do have some clear silicone in the workshop so I may try using some of that to see how it works, and it should set within 30 minutes or so rather than the 28 days predicted on the putty tub!! If it all goes pear shaped I do have some silcone eater to clean up the mess!

 

 

Ok, good luck. The portholes were set on a butil sealant. Easy to work with and easy to clean excess ( white spirits). Stays flexible. Cleaning off excess is best done after letting butil skin over and probably after 24hrs. The majority off it can be cleanly skimmed of with thumb nail or wood wedge.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Higgs

[David Schweizer]

Ok, good luck. The portholes were set on a butil sealant. Easy to work with and easy to clean excess ( white spirits). Stays flexible.

I should still have some of that somewhere, left over from when I glazed the extension French Doors 20 years ago, I just have to remember where it is!! I guess i could try using it to fit the glass, although it tends to weep out a bit over time.

Edited March 29, 2012 by David Schweizer

[Higgs]

I should still have some of that somewhere, left over from when I glazed the extension French Doors 20 years ago, I just have to remember where it is!! I guess i could try using it to fit the glass, although it tends to weep out a bit over time.

 

I wouldn't use it to set the glass in the porthole. But, it's very good for setting window frames.

[LEO]

I wouldn't use it to set the glass in the porthole. But, it's very good for setting window frames.

 

hi,

 

I run a ring of silcone inside the rebate, allow this to set for 24 hours and this forms a good gasket to bond the glass, a small amount of silcone can be used for final bonding, - run a ring of silcone around the ring which bonds with the pigeon box.

 

Allow this to set, again it froms a good bond.

 

The benefit of doing it this way is a better seal is achieved, all the silcone does not squeeze out.

 

Used this method on my PBox and when I fitted a prism.

 

L.

[Higgs]

hi,

 

I run a ring of silcone inside the rebate, allow this to set for 24 hours and this forms a good gasket to bond the glass, a small amount of silcone can be used for final bonding, - run a ring of silcone around the ring which bonds with the pigeon box.

 

Allow this to set, again it froms a good bond.

 

The benefit of doing it this way is a better seal is achieved, all the silcone does not squeeze out.

 

Used this method on my PBox and when I fitted a prism.

 

L.

 

 

I've taken so many windows out, and while it wouldn't be so hard to remove a small porthole sealed on with silicone, it's an absolute pig if it's used on a large window. And as a painter, silicone is not welcome. I would like to have been able to charge for the extra hours it took to rid some jobs of silicone. So, I'd always elect to use butil. It stays flexible and window frames, while well sealed with butil, are alot easier to remove.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Higgs

[Ex- Member]

I'm surprised no one's mentioned Butyl for setting glass into portholes, much simpler no mess, easy to apply, always flexible and never leaks.

 

All our 13 portholes and 4 portholes in the pigeon box are fitted with this, 8 years on never had a leak anywhere, also mushroom vents are bedded in with it as well, you can choose the thickness to apply to set the glass in, tighten down remove the squeezed out excess with edge of plastic spreader perfect finish. no wiping with solvent soaked cloth and making a mess. If you ever need to remove broken porthole glass their much easier to remove than silicones and mastics, with Butly you can remove it without any chemical intervention it does stick well and takes some removing but can be done much easier than mastics or dried putty. You can even use the same stuff again to refit the new glass.

 

KISS

 

http://solutions.3m.co.uk/wps/portal/3M/en_GB/Tapes-and-Adhesives/Home/AdhesiveTape/BondMethod/ButylSealant/

[lewisericeric]

BEEN BEATEN TO IT> WAS GOING TO SUGGEST BUTYL AS THAT"S WHAT I INSTALLED MY PORTHOLES WITH JUST LAST WEEK> WATERPROOF AND NO MESS AND DEAD EASY

 

SORRY ABOUT THE CAPS THE BATTERIES IN MY KEYBOARD ARE RUNNING LOW AND ITS KEEPING MY TEXT IN UPPER CASE

Edited March 29, 2012 by lewisericeric

[Ex- Member]

BEEN BEATEN TO IT> WAS GOING TO SUGGEST BUTYL AS THAT"S WHAT I INSTALLED MY PORTHOLES WITH JUST LAST WEEK> WATERPROOF AND NO MESS AND DEAD EASY

 

SORRY ABOUT THE CAPS THE BATTERIES IN MY KEYBOARD ARE RUNNING LOW AND ITS KEEPING MY TEXT IN UPPER CASE

 

Hi Lewis

 

Yes much easier and simple. The trick is on the outer ring is not to over tighten the screws too much, all you need to do is tighten enough so a ring of butly exudes from the joint evenly all around, trim this off for a neat finish. You can come unstuck if you don't apply butyl thick enough to the inner ring for the glass, you need to gauge the butyl thicknesses so it all squeezes together at the same time.

 

Be aware though you will notice over time that with expansion and contraction the butyl will squeeze out from the joint slightly, it's meant to do this though it stays pliable to cope with this type movement. when it contacts the other way it sucks it back in. It's tempting to trim it off, it will usually retract back. if you do though just nip up the fixing screws again quarter or half turn maybe so they're tigh but not causing more butyl to exude.

 

 

Seems like you sussed it though, You're making some good decisions there Lewis IMO

 

Edited March 29, 2012 by Julynian

[LEO]

I've taken so many windows out, and while it wouldn't be so hard to remove a small porthole sealed on with silicone, it's an absolute pig if it's used on a large window. And as a painter, silicone is not welcome. I would like to have been able to charge for the extra hours it took to rid some jobs of silicone. So, I'd always elect to use butil. It stays flexible and window frames, while well sealed with butil, are alot easier to remove.

 

I will investigate Butyl. You missed the point of my post - allow a ring of silcone to set for 24 hours - it then forms a flexible Gasket which should not stick to the glass, but will form a good seal.

 

L.

[Higgs]

I will investigate Butyl. You missed the point of my post - allow a ring of silcone to set for 24 hours - it then forms a flexible Gasket which should not stick to the glass, but will form a good seal.

 

L.

 

 

I understood.

 

Your method would be ok. As the window is not likely to being coming out in a hurry, I still prefer the bonding of glass to porthole method leaving a bevelled finish to the silicone and nowhere for water to hide. Thought it best to leave it to the readers to pick a method.

[Ex- Member]

I will investigate Butyl. You missed the point of my post - allow a ring of silcone to set for 24 hours - it then forms a flexible Gasket which should not stick to the glass, but will form a good seal.

 

L.

 

Hi LEO

 

I see what you mean, pretty good solution that would suffice, especially if you got a steady hand and create a nice even ring of silicone. Removing broken glass would be easier also, of course depending on what the outer ring is affixed with.

 

Of course now many boat yards have started using Neoprene seals, even easier than Butyl and as if not more reliable than Butyl, was I to fit portholes anew I would use Neoprene. For the glass though, I feel you need a perfect ring with no butt join so need to cut a gasket from a sheet of Neoprene and that gets expensive. The outer ring though you can use Neoprene strip and but join together at the bottom of the porthole, it does but together nicely and probably would successfully complete the seal, I'm just a bit fastidious

Edited March 30, 2012 by Julynian

[David Schweizer]

Thanks for all the suggeations, I have finally done it using the putty I purchased a few months ago.

 

Initially I tried usung some butyl tape which I found in my workshop, but as it is more than 20 years old it was not very flexible, and the surplus that squeezed out was impossible to cut off cleanly. I could have got a new roll but as I only needed about a metre I decided not to get any, just for most of it to go off over the next 20 years.

 

Instead I had another go with the putty and, as suggested by Chris Pink, added a few drops of linseed oil which seemed to make it more adhesive, I suspect it must have been old stock even though it only came from the manufacturer a few months ago. I filled the rebate with putty and pressed the glass ino it, but leaving it proud. I cleaned any excess off the rim and turned it over screwing it down to compress the putty/glass seal. I found that leaving the putty overnight to dry out a bit made cleaning the excess easier, although it still required quite a lot of care to avoid making a mess. Once the putty has hardened, I intend to use some 3mm window tape on the back of the portholes to create a waterproof seal between them and the Pigeon Box flaps.

 

As sopon as I get a moment, I will be posting a couple of photos of the finished job, mainly to demonstrate more of Ron Hough's decoration.

[Higgs]

Glad the task is done. Putty has been good enough for windows a long time and silicone can get really messy. Look forward to seeing the photos.

 

[David Schweizer]

I have finally got round to loading some photos of my Pigeon Box, which was recently decorated by Ron Hough, and now with Portholes and Builder's plate fitted.

 

 

 

Edited April 3, 2012 by David Schweizer

[Chris-B]

Very Very Nice David

 

Chris