Is FAME in diesel fuel illegal?

[Kantara]

I'm a new boat owner, and have probably missed a lot of discussion about the addition of FAME to diesel fuel - although I have not found much here on these forums; perhaps I'm looking in the wrong place - but what I have read and heard about it alarms me greatly, and one thought keeps returning to me...

 

Since FAME is known to cause a number of problems in canal boats (and, presumably, other vehicles) many if not all of which are damaging and render the engine unusable, this surely proves the diesel to be NOT fit for purpose, and the vendors of any such fuel are in breach of section 14 of the Sale of Goods Act 1979.

 

Are there any legal experts out there who can answer this, please?

Edited March 23, 2012 by Kantara

[larkshall]

I'm a new boat owner, and have probably missed a lot of discussion about the addition of FAME to diesel fuel - although I have not found much here on these forums; perhaps I'm looking in the wrong place - but what I have read and heard about it alarms me greatly, and one thought keeps returning to me...

 

Since FAME is known to cause a number of problems in canal boats (and, presumably, other vehicles) many if not all of which are damaging and render the engine unusable, this surely proves the diesel to be NOT fit for purpose, and the vendors of any such fuel are in breach of section 14 of the Sale of Goods Act 1979.

 

Are there any legal experts out there who can answer this, please?

 

I'm curious about this too. More and more agri diesel is polluted with this stuff too, really screws up combine harvesters which are only used seasonally.

[JerryP]

I've been making my own FAME aka biodiesel now since October 2008 ,i run my Land Defender 200tdi on it ,i run it on 100% all year round and have had no problems at all (although i do add a winter addative when the temp drops below freezing) ,i also give it (free of charge) to my stepdad ,who runs his Renault Clio on it and a friend who runs his Skoda Octavia (again both trouble free) ,there's a lot of people who panic when they hear the word biodiesel/FAME simply because they've read somewhere that it's bad for an engine or have been simply misinformed ,this is simply untrue ,it's actually better for the engine because it's more "oily" ,and my land rover is considerably quiter than when it was running on white diesel ,when the first diesel engine was made by Rudolph Diesel it was designed to run on peanut oil ! ,

 

however ,the basic production of biodiesel is not difficult ,what does take the time (and this is where the commercial product could possible cause problems),is the amount of time it takes to wash and polish the fuel before it reach's the consumer

 

during the production of Biodiesel by the very nature of the process a certain amount of "soap" is produced ,unless this soap is TOTALLY removed ,by means of washing the biodiesel it will find its way into your filters and eventually block them (soap is more likely to be the cause of fuel issues than "biobug") ,biodiesel is also hydroscopic ,this means it will absorb water at a greater rate than white diesel.

 

the feedstock used in production also plays a massive part in the quality of biodiesel produced ,all my fuel is made from waste LIQUID veg oil ,this when turned into fuel has a solidifying point of -3 deg c ,commercial produces use anything that comes to hand ,this could be, liquid veg oil ,solid veg oil ,kebab fat ,palm oil ,or any other animal derived fat ! ,all these have various melting points ,and therefore various solidifying points ,biodiesel made from solid veg oil will start to solidify at +3 deg c ,kebab fat and palm oil are even higher,

 

most home producers like myself collect various types of oil then seperate them ,saving the liquid oil for winter production and using the solid oil for making summer fuel ,i'm truly blessed in that all my oil is liquid

 

I Know exactly what has gone into my fuel and know exactly what's come out ,the people who make their own fuel are far more likely to produce good quality fuel than someone working on an industrial estate.

 

A home producer can legally make 2500 litres per year before having to declare it ,i do have to keep production records showing how much i've produced ,these have to be kept for 6 years.

[Graham Davis]

It is not illegal, the EU spec for retail diesel was altered to include a certain per-centage of Bio some time ago.

[rjasmith]

I'm a new boat owner, and have probably missed a lot of discussion about the addition of FAME to diesel fuel - although I have not found much here on these forums; perhaps I'm looking in the wrong place - but what I have read and heard about it alarms me greatly, and one thought keeps returning to me...

 

Since FAME is known to cause a number of problems in canal boats (and, presumably, other vehicles) many if not all of which are damaging and render the engine unusable, this surely proves the diesel to be NOT fit for purpose, and the vendors of any such fuel are in breach of section 14 of the Sale of Goods Act 1979.

 

Are there any legal experts out there who can answer this, please?

 

 

Did you try using the search facility? It's known to be rather hard to use and needs a bit of perseverance by careful selection of the fields on the "advanced search" option.

 

I looked for "FAME" just now and came up with three quite long threads which I knew were on here somewhere!

 

Try these:-

 

Link 1

 

Link 2

 

Link 3

 

Quite a bit on FAME in these which may be helpful.

 

Richard

[Tony Brooks]

It is not illegal, the EU spec for retail diesel was altered to include a certain per-centage of Bio some time ago.

 

 

Er - no, well not quiet.

 

The EU said that gas oil (red diesel) used in off road equipment must be sulphur free.

 

The UK fuel companies decided (at that time) to simply dye road diesel red and road diesel is required to have up to 7% bio-diesel in it. I think they weer thinking more about their profits than the customers.

 

Since then the major agricultural contractors and suppliers have had major problems with fuel with FAME in it so now some refineries can supply FAME free red diesel and some can not. Even if it is supposed to be FAME free exactly how FAME free it is probably depends upon the last load in the tanker or through the refineries pipes.

 

Now, you can take the opinion of JerryP or those of myself, RCR and the agricultural community. There is nothing inherently wrong with FAME but once you start to store it for long periods you increase the likelihood of problems. These result from:

 

1. FAMES ability to emulsify water.

 

2. The water in the fuel encouraging diesel bug growth.

 

3. The reaction between FAME and certain emulsifying additives.

 

If you do your best to minimise any water in then fuel (use a de-emulsifier additive and pump out/drain regularly) and make sure you get the old fuel filters for inspection you can expect little trouble. Also try to buy fuel from high volume outlets who would face large costs themselves if they supplied poor fuel.

 

 

I am rather more concerned about the low sulphur allowing seals to shrink back to their original size so now being worn leak. People with DPA or Bosch Rotary injector pumps need to keep an eye on their engine oil for signs of dilution by diesel, which probably indicates a leaking injector pump shaft seal. RCR and Calcutt have both noticed an increase in pump leaks last year.

[Andy Todd]

If you buy a pint of milk, keep it past its 'use by' date, is it 'not fit for purpose'?

[Grace and Favour]

If you buy a pint of milk, keep it past its 'use by' date, is it 'not fit for purpose'?

 

Unless you wish to make cream cheese with it - (of course) - it's then no longer suitable to consume.

 

But that's because YOU kept it past it's sell-by date - - it was perfectly suitable when you bought it

[Guest]

If you buy a pint of milk, keep it past its 'use by' date, is it 'not fit for purpose'?

I understand the point you are making, but does diesel have a "use by" date? What is the "shelf life" of diesel, fame or otherwise?

 

I am considering leaving the diesel tank empty over the winter in future, possibly with some sort of absorbent medium to absorb condensation. I wonder if this is a worthwhile experiment?

[ditchcrawler]

I understand the point you are making, but does diesel have a "use by" date? What is the "shelf life" of diesel, fame or otherwise?

 

I am considering leaving the diesel tank empty over the winter in future, possibly with some sort of absorbent medium to absorb condensation. I wonder if this is a worthwhile experiment?

Well it will stop someone nicking it, like they did mine one year

[Dominic M]

There's so much said about this. Has anyone got any hard facts and figures?

Edited March 23, 2012 by Dominic M

[Hairy-Neil]

Bioethanol petrol is giving classic car owners similar nightmares. The ethanol is a strong solvent so rubber, plastic, glass fibre (glass fibre fuel tanks were legal till early 1970s) etc in the fuel system. Ethanol also readily absorbs water, so the metal components (steel, aluminium, brass, copper) in older vehicle fuel systems are prone to corrosion.

[paddy r]

 

 

 

 

I am rather more concerned about the low sulphur allowing seals to shrink back to their original size so now being worn leak. People with DPA or Bosch Rotary injector pumps need to keep an eye on their engine oil for signs of dilution by diesel, which probably indicates a leaking injector pump shaft seal. RCR and Calcutt have both noticed an increase in pump leaks last year.

 

 

I used to repair Land Rover and other 4x4,Bosch pumps allways seemed to be the ones that would run on bio fuel and Lucas pumps died!as you know different seal and lubrication system, if FAME is part Bio is there not something else we are missing?what are they putting in the fuel?

 

 

Paddy

[Tony Brooks]

I used to repair Land Rover and other 4x4,Bosch pumps allways seemed to be the ones that would run on bio fuel and Lucas pumps died!as you know different seal and lubrication system, if FAME is part Bio is there not something else we are missing?what are they putting in the fuel?

 

 

Paddy

 

FAME is bio. I made no comment about the pump's ability to run on bio (FAME) but about the effect of low sulphur fuel on seals. Now any pump that has the main drive spindle inside the engine AND that has seals that swelled in contact with sulphur are subject to the seals shrinking when fed low sulphur fuel. Bosch Rotary pumps have been around for many years so the older versions may well have seals that suffer as described. However most in-line pumps use camshaft so the fuel is probably not in contact with the main seal.

 

Once we move away from FAME to a variety of bio-derived fuels that have not been chemically reacted then yes, the Bosch pump could cope with their higher viscosity far better than the DP series so tended to give little trouble. The DP series needed a small helix ground on the shaft bearing surfaces to allow the more viscous fuel to "get into" the bearing.

 

It seems it is not so much what is being put in as what has been taken out although FAME is a good solvent and so on I do not expect much trouble from that because our service intervals are so short when compared with road vehicle.

[JerryP]

I used to repair Land Rover and other 4x4,Bosch pumps allways seemed to be the ones that would run on bio fuel and Lucas pumps died!as you know different seal and lubrication system, if FAME is part Bio is there not something else we are missing?what are they putting in the fuel?

 

 

Paddy

 

I agree with you Paddy ,as a member of a biodiesel forum ,it would appear that lucas pumps are the ones that die over a period of time ,as iv'e already said my Land Rover (Bosch pump) has covered several thousand miles now on Biodiesel and the pump has no leaks or nasty noises ,and at 23mpg thats a lot of biodiesel.

 

as for shelf live ,i still have jar 3/4 full of biodiesel that was a sample taken from my very first batch back in 2008 ,and it's still as clear as the day it was made ,i'm beginning to wonder if some people have ever actually seen any biodiesel ?,or are they baseing their finding on what others are telling them ?.

 

 

eta ,seals made from VITON are bio proof if anyone wants to replace any they have that might be leaking

Edited March 24, 2012 by JerryP

[Kantara]

I've been making my own FAME aka biodiesel now since October 2008 ,i run my Land Defender 200tdi on it ,i run it on 100% all year round and have had no problems at all (although i do add a winter addative when the temp drops below freezing) ,i also give it (free of charge) to my stepdad ,who runs his Renault Clio on it and a friend who runs his Skoda Octavia (again both trouble free) ,there's a lot of people who panic when they hear the word biodiesel/FAME simply because they've read somewhere that it's bad for an engine or have been simply misinformed ,this is simply untrue ,it's actually better for the engine because it's more "oily" ,and my land rover is considerably quiter than when it was running on white diesel ,when the first diesel engine was made by Rudolph Diesel it was designed to run on peanut oil ! ,

 

however ,the basic production of biodiesel is not difficult ,what does take the time (and this is where the commercial product could possible cause problems),is the amount of time it takes to wash and polish the fuel before it reach's the consumer

 

during the production of Biodiesel by the very nature of the process a certain amount of "soap" is produced ,unless this soap is TOTALLY removed ,by means of washing the biodiesel it will find its way into your filters and eventually block them (soap is more likely to be the cause of fuel issues than "biobug") ,biodiesel is also hydroscopic ,this means it will absorb water at a greater rate than white diesel.

 

the feedstock used in production also plays a massive part in the quality of biodiesel produced ,all my fuel is made from waste LIQUID veg oil ,this when turned into fuel has a solidifying point of -3 deg c ,commercial produces use anything that comes to hand ,this could be, liquid veg oil ,solid veg oil ,kebab fat ,palm oil ,or any other animal derived fat ! ,all these have various melting points ,and therefore various solidifying points ,biodiesel made from solid veg oil will start to solidify at +3 deg c ,kebab fat and palm oil are even higher,

 

most home producers like myself collect various types of oil then seperate them ,saving the liquid oil for winter production and using the solid oil for making summer fuel ,i'm truly blessed in that all my oil is liquid

 

I Know exactly what has gone into my fuel and know exactly what's come out ,the people who make their own fuel are far more likely to produce good quality fuel than someone working on an industrial estate.

 

A home producer can legally make 2500 litres per year before having to declare it ,i do have to keep production records showing how much i've produced ,these have to be kept for 6 years.

[Tony Brooks]

 

as for shelf live ,i still have jar 3/4 full of biodiesel that was a sample taken from my very first batch back in 2008 ,and it's still as clear as the day it was made ,i'm beginning to wonder if some people have ever actually seen any biodiesel ?,or are they baseing their finding on what others are telling them ?.

 

 

eta ,seals made from VITON are bio proof if anyone wants to replace any they have that might be leaking

 

I agree, I saw some 18 month old bio and it was perfectly good. I think the "shelf life" thing was started by the oil companies to cover their backs and most other authorities simply regurgitated what they said. However this is in jars and containers which are dry, clean and relatively water tight. Not old, dirty, water containing fuel tanks that may or may not already have a population of "bug". This is why I am now stressing the need to keep the fuel and tanks as water free as possible.

[Kantara]

.

 

I've been making my own FAME aka biodiesel now since October 2008 ,i run my Land Defender 200tdi on it ,i run it on 100% all year round and have had no problems at all (although i do add a winter addative when the temp drops below freezing) ,i also give it (free of charge) to my stepdad ,who runs his Renault Clio on it and a friend who runs his Skoda Octavia (again both trouble free) ,there's a lot of people who panic when they hear the word biodiesel/FAME simply because they've read somewhere that it's bad for an engine or have been simply misinformed ,this is simply untrue ,it's actually better for the engine because it's more "oily" ,and my land rover is considerably quiter than when it was running on white diesel ,when the first diesel engine was made by Rudolph Diesel it was designed to run on peanut oil ! ,

 

however ,the basic production of biodiesel is not difficult ,what does take the time (and this is where the commercial product could possible cause problems),is the amount of time it takes to wash and polish the fuel before it reach's the consumer

 

during the production of Biodiesel by the very nature of the process a certain amount of "soap" is produced ,unless this soap is TOTALLY removed ,by means of washing the biodiesel it will find its way into your filters and eventually block them (soap is more likely to be the cause of fuel issues than "biobug") ,biodiesel is also hydroscopic ,this means it will absorb water at a greater rate than white diesel.

 

the feedstock used in production also plays a massive part in the quality of biodiesel produced ,all my fuel is made from waste LIQUID veg oil ,this when turned into fuel has a solidifying point of -3 deg c ,commercial produces use anything that comes to hand ,this could be, liquid veg oil ,solid veg oil ,kebab fat ,palm oil ,or any other animal derived fat ! ,all these have various melting points ,and therefore various solidifying points ,biodiesel made from solid veg oil will start to solidify at +3 deg c ,kebab fat and palm oil are even higher,

 

most home producers like myself collect various types of oil then seperate them ,saving the liquid oil for winter production and using the solid oil for making summer fuel ,i'm truly blessed in that all my oil is liquid

 

I Know exactly what has gone into my fuel and know exactly what's come out ,the people who make their own fuel are far more likely to produce good quality fuel than someone working on an industrial estate.

 

A home producer can legally make 2500 litres per year before having to declare it ,i do have to keep production records showing how much i've produced ,these have to be kept for 6 years.

Of course, I can't comment on anything you produce. I am talking specifically about the FAME which is being added to boat diesel fuel, and I can't for the life of me imagine why so many boat users would make up stories of the stuff damaging seals, pipes and filters if it was actually GOOD for the engines! I have read all of the theoretical advantages of FAME additives, and they sound great, but they do NOT outweigh the problems suffered by many which DO bring THEIR engines to a stop, and which cost real money and time to put right. THIS is what makes the diesel fuel unfit for purpose.

 

I agree, I saw some 18 month old bio and it was perfectly good. I think the "shelf life" thing was started by the oil companies to cover their backs and most other authorities simply regurgitated what they said. However this is in jars and containers which are dry, clean and relatively water tight. Not old, dirty, water containing fuel tanks that may or may not already have a population of "bug". This is why I am now stressing the need to keep the fuel and tanks as water free as possible.

But I'm not talking about shelf life or water absorption, bad as that problem IS for many users, I am talking about the clogging of fuel filters, the damage to seals and the thinning of fuel pipes, ultimately making them split. Any fuel which does this to engines is clearly not fit for purpose.

 

It is not illegal, the EU spec for retail diesel was altered to include a certain per-centage of Bio some time ago.

I understand that... but can it be denied that this directive forced producers and retailers to sell a fuel which is NOT fit for purpose, and in breach of the UK Sale of Goods Act, section 14?

 

Did you try using the search facility? It's known to be rather hard to use and needs a bit of perseverance by careful selection of the fields on the "advanced search" option.

 

I looked for "FAME" just now and came up with three quite long threads which I knew were on here somewhere!

 

Try these:-

 

Link 1

 

Link 2

 

Link 3

 

Quite a bit on FAME in these which may be helpful.

 

Richard

Thanks a lot for that, Richard!

 

If you buy a pint of milk, keep it past its 'use by' date, is it 'not fit for purpose'?

Not at all, but it IS unfit for purpose if it rots my insides and causes me to die - which is what is is doing to boats!

Edited March 24, 2012 by Kantara

[Kantara]

Adding to the mix of comments and viewpoints above, the following comes from the web site of ABNB Ltd, Boat Brokerage.

 

"The drive towards using bio-fuels has created a situation that is not good for your marine diesel engine. Biodiesel in the form of FAME (Fatty Acid Methyl Ester) is now permitted in your diesel.

 

What's bad about that?

 

FAME is known to cause problems including the degrading of many of the metals and rubbers that we use on marine engine installations, plus the 'drying-out' of seals. It acts as a solvent and so can 'clean' your fuel tank, causing debris within the fuel. It is also hydroscopic, meaning that it will absorb water more readily into your fuel tank. And, there is a greater chance of the 'diesel bug' affecting your diesel, which appears to be made worse by the lowering of sulphur in the fuel.

 

How much of a problem this will be for the marine industry, no one is saying, but in first year of use there appeared to be an increase in the cases of marine engine failure due to fuel contamination. If I know the government they will be underplaying the disadvantages/disasters/on costs to us that's for sure.

 

There is hope for us however, but YOU NEED TO ACT NOW!!!!

As of 14 January 2011 it is compulsory to supply an Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel but it is NOT compulsory to mix FAME with the new diesel and the Department of Transport suggests up to 75% of diesel supplied will not contain FAME.

 

It is absolutely VITAL that you PRESSURISE YOUR MARINA/diesel supplier to ensure that they always sell you FAME-free diesel."

 

And the following, from Wikipedia... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_fuel#FAME

 

"FAME has a lower energy content than diesel due to its oxygen content, and as a result, performance and fuel consumption can be affected. It also can have higher levels of NOx emissions, possibly even exceeding the legal limit. FAME also has lower oxidation stability than diesel, and it offers favorable conditions for bacterial growth, so applications which have a low fuel turnover should not use FAME. The loss in power when using pure biodiesel is 5 to 7%.

Fuel equipment manufacturers (FIE) have raised several concerns regarding FAME fuels: free methanol, dissolved and free water, free glycerin, mono and diglycerides, free fatty acids, total solid impurity levels, alkaline metal compounds in solution and oxidation and thermal stability. They have also identified FAME as being the cause of the following problems: corrosion of fuel injection components, low-pressure fuel system blockage, increased dilution and polymerization of engine sump oil, pump seizures due to high fuel viscosity at low temperature, increased injection pressure, elastomeric seal failures and fuel injector spray blockage."

[bottle]

.

 

 

Of course, I can't comment on anything you produce. I am talking specifically about the FAME which is being added to boat diesel fuel, and I can't for the life of me imagine why so many boat users would make up stories of the stuff damaging seals, pipes and filters if it was actually GOOD for the engines! I have read all of the theoretical advantages of FAME additives, and they sound great, but they do NOT outweigh the problems suffered by many which DO bring THEIR engines to a stop, and which cost real money and time to put right. THIS is what makes the diesel fuel unfit for purpose.

 

This many boaters, have you actually met them or is this via a person who knows a person, who's mate had a problem that just by coincidence, happened after he had used some FAME diesel

 

 

But I'm not talking about shelf life or water absorption, bad as that problem IS for many users, I am talking about the clogging of fuel filters, the damage to seals and the thinning of fuel pipes, ultimately making them split. Any fuel which does this to engines is clearly not fit for purpose.

 

Which could be caused by other factors not just the fuel

 

I understand that... but can it be denied that this directive forced producers and retailers to sell a fuel which is NOT fit for purpose, and in breach of the UK Sale of Goods Act, section 14?

 

but it is fit for purpose it is sold as fuel to power an engine.

 

 

Thanks a lot for that, Richard!

 

 

Not at all, but it IS unfit for purpose if it rots my insides and causes me to die - which is what is is doing to boats!

 

 

ps. Devil's advocate.

Edited March 24, 2012 by bottle

[Graham Davis]

Graham Davis, on 23 March 2012 - 12:34 PM, said:

It is not illegal, the EU spec for retail diesel was altered to include a certain per-centage of Bio some time ago.

 

Kantara said:

I understand that... but can it be denied that this directive forced producers and retailers to sell a fuel which is NOT fit for purpose, and in breach of the UK Sale of Goods Act, section 14?

 

So why don't you try taking a prosecution of one of the suppliers under that legislation? That way there will be a final answer.

[Doorman]

Biodiesel has been produced by the Brazilians for decades, they appear to have overcome any inherent problems encountered on here. Until the fuel companies are prohibited from buying out any viable alternatives to fossil based fuel for our vehicles/boats, surely we should learn to embrace biofuel, even with its foibles.

 

Mike

[Tony Brooks]

Graham Davis, on 23 March 2012 - 12:34 PM, said:

It is not illegal, the EU spec for retail diesel was altered to include a certain per-centage of Bio some time ago.

 

Kantara said:

I understand that... but can it be denied that this directive forced producers and retailers to sell a fuel which is NOT fit for purpose, and in breach of the UK Sale of Goods Act, section 14?

 

So why don't you try taking a prosecution of one of the suppliers under that legislation? That way there will be a final answer.

 

 

This is directed at Katrina.

 

But there is NO legislation UK, EU or any other that requires boats and other off road engines to have FAME added to their fuel. As I explained it was a fuel company decision NOT legislation.

 

Many refineries are supplying FAME free fuel - just ask your supplier or shop around for one that does.

Edited March 24, 2012 by Tony Brooks

[GUMPY]

as was asked earlier are there any documented cases of fame inthe percentages in low sulpher diesel directly causing a problem

 

 

I await an answer on this as I dont think there are

 

All the talk of it rotting seals etc is sometimes true with certain seals when using B100 but not when using it at less than B7

One problem that does occour is the detritus being cleaned off the walls of the tank and blocking filters and yes that has happened to me when running my VW on B100

 

As I said I await the proof

[Guest]

Well it will stop someone nicking it, like they did mine one year

A bloody good point! I too had a tank full "removed" once.