10 volt batteries

[Sven...]

I bet this one is easy to answer for those of you who are passionate about batteries :-)

 

Basically I have had my domestic battery bank for less than a year, and I wonder if the batteries are already knackered, because they seem hardly able to supply enough power for a single night of use.

 

There are 6 x 110 Ah 12V wet lead-acid deep-cycle leasure batteries. As a liveaboard with no access to mains power, both my charging and discharging would be quite a random affair. Not ideal, I know.

 

Today I have made some very simple measurements, which I hope can tell if the batteries are still any good. Here is what I did:

 

First ran the boat engine for 10 hours or so, in order to give all the batteries a good charge via the alternator. Towards the end of the charge, the voltage at the battery poles was 14.3 volts.

 

I then disconnected three of the batteries completely, in order to make some measurements...

 

I do not have a hydrometer, but I have a good digital voltmeter and some light bulbs.

 

I found some 12V 20W halogen bulbs and attached one to each battery, using crocodile clamps. In other words, I now had three separate sets of 12V battery + near 2A load. All 3 lights were shining brightly.

 

However, the voltmeter would soon tell that there were differences between the three sets. I took readings after 5 minutes, 30 minutes, 1 hour, 2 hours, and 5 hours - all while the loads were still on. Here are the results - all readings rounded to one decimal:

 

Battery A – 11.3, 10.7, 10.7, 10.7, 10.6 volts

Battery B – 12.9, 11.8, 10.7, 10.7, 10.4 volts

Battery C – 13.0, 12.8, 12.7, 12.6, 12.5 volts

 

My guess is that the first two batteries are ruined – possibly one of the cells gone. So do I now have two nice 10 volt batteries? The third one © is perhaps OK...?

 

I thought it was intriguing that battery A started out much lower than B, but held the voltage better as the hours passed by.

 

I hope to post test results for my other 3 batteries tomorrow. By the way I have ordered some Granville Bat Aid tablets and plan to see if these make any difference... are they any good..?

 

Some other background information:

 

I do use a lot of power (around 100-150 Ah per day is my guess). There are two alternators – a big one for the domestic bank (around 100A) and a smaller one for the separate starter battery. Here I only consider the domestic bank. I believe the cables and connectors are fairly sound.

I also have a Honda generator and a Victron Phoenix charger/inverter, which I can use as an alternate way of charging - but these were not part of the test above.

A few days ago I topped up the batteries with battery water. Some of them were mostly dry at the time (incl battery A above), while the others seemed fine (all cells wet – incl batteries B and C above).

 

Sven

[Ex- Member]

I bet this one is easy to answer for those of you who are passionate about batteries :-)

 

Basically I have had my domestic battery bank for less than a year, and I wonder if the batteries are already knackered, because they seem hardly able to supply enough power for a single night of use.

 

There are 6 x 110 Ah 12V wet lead-acid deep-cycle leasure batteries. As a liveaboard with no access to mains power, both my charging and discharging would be quite a random affair. Not ideal, I know.

 

Today I have made some very simple measurements, which I hope can tell if the batteries are still any good. Here is what I did:

 

First ran the boat engine for 10 hours or so, in order to give all the batteries a good charge via the alternator. Towards the end of the charge, the voltage at the battery poles was 14.3 volts.

 

I then disconnected three of the batteries completely, in order to make some measurements...

 

I do not have a hydrometer, but I have a good digital voltmeter and some light bulbs.

 

I found some 12V 20W halogen bulbs and attached one to each battery, using crocodile clamps. In other words, I now had three separate sets of 12V battery + near 2A load. All 3 lights were shining brightly.

 

However, the voltmeter would soon tell that there were differences between the three sets. I took readings after 5 minutes, 30 minutes, 1 hour, 2 hours, and 5 hours - all while the loads were still on. Here are the results - all readings rounded to one decimal:

 

Battery A – 11.3, 10.7, 10.7, 10.7, 10.6 volts

Battery B – 12.9, 11.8, 10.7, 10.7, 10.4 volts

Battery C – 13.0, 12.8, 12.7, 12.6, 12.5 volts

 

My guess is that the first two batteries are ruined – possibly one of the cells gone. So do I now have two nice 10 volt batteries? The third one © is perhaps OK...?

 

I thought it was intriguing that battery A started out much lower than B, but held the voltage better as the hours passed by.

 

I hope to post test results for my other 3 batteries tomorrow. By the way I have ordered some Granville Bat Aid tablets and plan to see if these make any difference... are they any good..?

 

Some other background information:

 

I do use a lot of power (around 100-150 Ah per day is my guess). There are two alternators – a big one for the domestic bank (around 100A) and a smaller one for the separate starter battery. Here I only consider the domestic bank. I believe the cables and connectors are fairly sound.

I also have a Honda generator and a Victron Phoenix charger/inverter, which I can use as an alternate way of charging - but these were not part of the test above.

A few days ago I topped up the batteries with battery water. Some of them were mostly dry at the time (incl battery A above), while the others seemed fine (all cells wet – incl batteries B and C above).

 

Sven

 

Hi Sven

 

 

Not really an expert on batteries although gleaned much from the forum over time. Battery A & b don't look good though a big drop off of volts in a short time so probably useless. I did find out last year and did post something on here, that most Wet Lead Acid can be revived to an extent and in some cases up to 90% as long as all the cells are ok, ie registering around 2 volts. Any single dead cell and it's basically scrap.

 

Our fork lift starter battery at the warehouse kept going flat if the fork lift wasn't used for a couple of days, so I tried the Epsom Salts cure, surprisingly it worked, I did this last year and the battery hasn't given a problem since. It's definitely worth a try if there's no dead cells, a pack of Epsom salts is a couple of quid and a bit of battery maintenance work and some patience and you could save yourself replacing batteries at £80 plus a throw for sometime.

 

Some You Tube tutorials below. this one just shows the basic method.

 

 

This company sells some product that you add to a battery to revive it, who's to say it's not Epsom Salts repackaged though

 

 

This guy did quite an in depth test on an Epsom Salts revived battery used in his car with very good results.

 

 

 

[nigeljan]

I am just guessing but 100 amp seems to be too much power to try to put into a battery bank.assuming they are all connected parrarrel does the alternater lead pysically connect to batt a first at this amperage small amounts of resistance will become very significent.Wish you good luck and hope someone more knowlegable than i can help

nigel

[dor]

I think you have answered your own question where you say that your charging is a random affair.

 

Using 150AHr a night needs about 6-8 hours charging from your 100A alternator the next day to fully recharge the batteries. Even with a fancy alternator controller. Charge rate will soon drop to under 50A and continue to drop to about 30A. Charging is completed by several hours at under 10 A. You need to replace about 200AHr to make up for the 150 used.

 

Failing to do this, and using that sort of daily power draw will almost certainly lead to sulphated batteries in quite a short time - a matter of months.

[blodger]

To desulphate and recover as far as is possible I would recommend a full week of trickle charging with your batt aids added part way through plus the use of a strong pulser if available. After which some controlled overcharging is in order upto 16.5v monitoring that the battery does not get too warm.

The batts will not fully recover but will then be as good as they are going to get.

You can do a whole load of readings with a hydrometer as what you are doing is trying to get the readings as high as they will go towards normal/new battery.

[Arthur Brown]

You answer your own question! Batteries need recharging! AND at the correct times when they are half discharged. Basically now there are dodges and bodges but your battery stack may well need replacing and you will learn a proper charge regime. Get a 100 - 250w solar panel ASAP in the summer they may be all you need.

[GUMPY]

If battery A is the first one in the line and battery C the last I would also be prepared to bet that the pos and neg are taken from the same battery and not opposite ends of the bank!

[blodger]

If they are less than a year old I doubt a cell has gone yet; It's sulphation and partial recovery is possible

[by'eck]

I bet this one is easy to answer for those of you who are passionate about batteries :-)

 

Basically I have had my domestic battery bank for less than a year, and I wonder if the batteries are already knackered, because they seem hardly able to supply enough power for a single night of use.

 

There are 6 x 110 Ah 12V wet lead-acid deep-cycle leasure batteries. As a liveaboard with no access to mains power, both my charging and discharging would be quite a random affair. Not ideal, I know.

 

Today I have made some very simple measurements, which I hope can tell if the batteries are still any good. Here is what I did:

 

First ran the boat engine for 10 hours or so, in order to give all the batteries a good charge via the alternator. Towards the end of the charge, the voltage at the battery poles was 14.3 volts.

 

I then disconnected three of the batteries completely, in order to make some measurements...

 

I do not have a hydrometer, but I have a good digital voltmeter and some light bulbs.

 

I found some 12V 20W halogen bulbs and attached one to each battery, using crocodile clamps. In other words, I now had three separate sets of 12V battery + near 2A load. All 3 lights were shining brightly.

 

However, the voltmeter would soon tell that there were differences between the three sets. I took readings after 5 minutes, 30 minutes, 1 hour, 2 hours, and 5 hours - all while the loads were still on. Here are the results - all readings rounded to one decimal:

 

Battery A – 11.3, 10.7, 10.7, 10.7, 10.6 volts

Battery B – 12.9, 11.8, 10.7, 10.7, 10.4 volts

Battery C – 13.0, 12.8, 12.7, 12.6, 12.5 volts

 

My guess is that the first two batteries are ruined – possibly one of the cells gone. So do I now have two nice 10 volt batteries? The third one © is perhaps OK...?

I thought it was intriguing that battery A started out much lower than B, but held the voltage better as the hours passed by.

 

I hope to post test results for my other 3 batteries tomorrow. By the way I have ordered some Granville Bat Aid tablets and plan to see if these make any difference... are they any good..?

 

Some other background information:

 

I do use a lot of power (around 100-150 Ah per day is my guess). There are two alternators – a big one for the domestic bank (around 100A) and a smaller one for the separate starter battery. Here I only consider the domestic bank. I believe the cables and connectors are fairly sound.

I also have a Honda generator and a Victron Phoenix charger/inverter, which I can use as an alternate way of charging - but these were not part of the test above.

A few days ago I topped up the batteries with battery water. Some of them were mostly dry at the time (incl battery A above), while the others seemed fine (all cells wet – incl batteries B and C above).

 

Sven

 

Easily explained: The lower initial voltage of battery A means that less current would be drawn by your test load allowing the others to deplete their minimal charge quicker.

 

Battery A may be beyond redemption, but a 12 hour at least charge may buck them up.

[bottle]

I do use a lot of power (around 100-150 Ah per day is my guess). There are two alternators – a big one for the domestic bank (around 100A) and a smaller one for the separate starter battery. Here I only consider the domestic bank. I believe the cables and connectors are fairly sound.

I also have a Honda generator and a Victron Phoenix charger/inverter, which I can use as an alternate way of charging -

 

A much more efficient way to charge the batteries would be to use the Honda and Victron.

 

I also suspect that your batteries may be wired inefficiently Have a look here: http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/batt_con.html

[Roger Gunkel]

I think Bottle and Idleness have hit the nail on the head. From my own past experience and the figures you have posted, it would seem that battery C is getting a full charge with B&A getting progressively less which is why they are discharging so quickly. In my case, as has already been mentioned, both positive and negative take off were from the same battery and changing the connections to diagonally opposite ends of the bank made an immediate and huge difference to charge and discharge levels.

 

Also make sure that you check electrolyte levels very regularly as high rates of charge and discharge for long periods will rapidly reduce the levels, seriously affecting performance.

 

Roger

[Sven...]

Thank you all for your answers. This has helped clarify what I probably should have realised long ago: My problem is not the batteries, but the charging.

 

I promised some more measurements, so here are the figures for my three other domestic batteries, as well as the starter battery. These measurements were made exactly like the first three (see the first post of this thread):

 

Battery D – 12.7, 12.7, 12.7, 12.6, 12.4 volts

Battery E – 11.1, 10.8, 10.9, 10.8, 10.8 volts

Battery F – 11.1, 11.1, 11.1, 11.0, 10.8 volts

Battery S – 13.0, 12.8, 12.8, 12.6, 12.5 volts

 

As we saw earlier, only battery C seemed to be in good order among the first 3. Now it looks like also battery D is okay, and possibly battery S – the starter battery.

 

However, the latter has not been able to start my engine recently. It does crank the starter a bit, but not fast enough to start. Is it clear from the voltages above that the starter battery is past its useful life? Could it be the case that this battery has lost the ability to start the engine but might be useful for domestic purposes?

 

>A much more efficient way to charge the batteries would be to use the Honda and Victron.

 

Yes I would do that more, if petrol were typically available along the canal :-)

 

I think maybe Arthur had the best idea of all... With my type of use (CC and heavy power usage) probably I should invest into some solar panels asap. It has been on my to-do list for years.

 

Summer is soon here, so with a bit of luck and care and good weather, perhaps I can then keep my existing batteries for a while still.

 

With regards to the individual batteries: For the short term I am considering to create a new, reduced domestic bank from the 3 apparently best batteries - C, D, S. Yes that includes the old starter battery. I feel I do not really need so many batteries if I get solar panels... at least not for the next half a year. So instead of replacing the whole lot now, all I would need to buy is a new starter battery.

 

>If battery A is the first one in the line and battery C the last I would also be prepared to bet that the pos and neg are taken from the same battery and not opposite ends of the bank!

 

The connections are at opposite ends of the bank already... But thanks for the reminder..!

 

>If they are less than a year old I doubt a cell has gone yet; It's sulphation and partial recovery is possible

 

Thank you, I will keep them all, and play around with them a bit to see what can be done..!

 

Sven

[Ex- Member]

Thank you all for your answers. This has helped clarify what I probably should have realised long ago: My problem is not the batteries, but the charging.

 

I promised some more measurements, so here are the figures for my three other domestic batteries, as well as the starter battery. These measurements were made exactly like the first three (see the first post of this thread):

 

Battery D – 12.7, 12.7, 12.7, 12.6, 12.4 volts

Battery E – 11.1, 10.8, 10.9, 10.8, 10.8 volts

Battery F – 11.1, 11.1, 11.1, 11.0, 10.8 volts

Battery S – 13.0, 12.8, 12.8, 12.6, 12.5 volts

 

As we saw earlier, only battery C seemed to be in good order among the first 3. Now it looks like also battery D is okay, and possibly battery S – the starter battery.

 

However, the latter has not been able to start my engine recently. It does crank the starter a bit, but not fast enough to start. Is it clear from the voltages above that the starter battery is past its useful life? Could it be the case that this battery has lost the ability to start the engine but might be useful for domestic purposes?

 

>A much more efficient way to charge the batteries would be to use the Honda and Victron.

 

Yes I would do that more, if petrol were typically available along the canal :-)

 

I think maybe Arthur had the best idea of all... With my type of use (CC and heavy power usage) probably I should invest into some solar panels asap. It has been on my to-do list for years.

 

Summer is soon here, so with a bit of luck and care and good weather, perhaps I can then keep my existing batteries for a while still.

 

With regards to the individual batteries: For the short term I am considering to create a new, reduced domestic bank from the 3 apparently best batteries - C, D, S. Yes that includes the old starter battery. I feel I do not really need so many batteries if I get solar panels... at least not for the next half a year. So instead of replacing the whole lot now, all I would need to buy is a new starter battery.

 

>If battery A is the first one in the line and battery C the last I would also be prepared to bet that the pos and neg are taken from the same battery and not opposite ends of the bank!

 

The connections are at opposite ends of the bank already... But thanks for the reminder..!

 

>If they are less than a year old I doubt a cell has gone yet; It's sulphation and partial recovery is possible

 

Thank you, I will keep them all, and play around with them a bit to see what can be done..!

 

Sven

 

whilst you're doing all this work Sven you just as well try the Epsom Salts cure, nothing ventured nothing gained, it certainly worked on our forklift battery.

 

 

 

[bottle]

Battery A – 11.3, 10.7, 10.7, 10.7, 10.6 volts

Battery B – 12.9, 11.8, 10.7, 10.7, 10.4 volts

Battery C – 13.0, 12.8, 12.7, 12.6, 12.5 volts

Battery D – 12.7, 12.7, 12.7, 12.6, 12.4 volts

Battery E – 11.1, 10.8, 10.9, 10.8, 10.8 volts

Battery F – 11.1, 11.1, 11.1, 11.0, 10.8 volts

 

The connections are at opposite ends of the bank already.

 

Can you see the pattern?

 

Are all connections at opposite ends of the bank, take off and charging.

[Keeping Up]

Can you see the pattern?

 

Are all connections at opposite ends of the bank, take off and charging.

 

It's an interesting pattern.

 

If there WERE things connected to the middle, wouldn't the pattern be reversed with the poorest battery being the centre one?

[Harpic]

Sven,

I would strongly suggest that you invest two sums of money:

1-buy a hydrometer from Halfords. Proper use of this will beat all the elaborate measures you have taken to test your batteries.

2- Buy an LPG conversion kit for your Honda. Petrol becomes a thing of the past, and there won't be many places where you can't buy bottled gas on the cut. Your Honda will run just as sweetly- and, importantly, more economically, on gas. It will also run on petrol, if the need should arise (although to get it to run on gas again you'll have to completely empty the carburettor and fuel tank of petrol; this is easy- just run the genny on its petrol until it stops!). My kit has been in use for 3 years now, without a hitch. There must be many suppliers of these kits- mine was purchased from Edge Technology in Crewe for £120. If you google this, you'll get their website easily enough.

Hope this helps

[bottle]

Allan

 

You are definitely more knowledgeable than me. (not difficult )

 

I may well be talking out of my posterior but will put this scenario, if all loads are at the ends but the charge was at the middle could that give the pattern.

 

I honestly do not know but always keen to improve my knowledge.

[Sven...]

>Can you see the pattern?

 

I did not expect this to turn into a discussion of how the batteries are interconnected, and so the letters I chose might have been misleading..!

 

The batteries are all connected in parallell, but not in an A-B-C-D-E-F fashion.

The connections go like this: A-B-C-F-E-D.

So there are short cables from A to B, from B to C, from C to F, from F to E, and from E to D. (The cables from C to F are longer than the others.)

The main positive lead for charging and take off is connected to the positive of battery A.

The main negative lead for charging and take off is connected to the negative of battery D... in other words, as far as possible (diagonally) from the main positive... as frequently recommended.

Hence it does not look to me like the way the batteries are interconnected could explain the differences.

 

Sven

[Roger Gunkel]

 

I think maybe Arthur had the best idea of all... With my type of use (CC and heavy power usage) probably I should invest into some solar panels asap. It has been on my to-do list for years.

 

Sven

 

I think that with the sort of power consumption you have, that you will need at least 2Kw of panels in the Summer months and 10Kw in the Winter, so not a viable proposition unless you have lots of money and a very large roof space!

 

Your first priority is to ensure that your batteries are correctly wired to maximise the charge they are getting, using the links from earlier posts. Then get a hydrometer as also suggested and test each battery individually. This is the initial minor cost route to establish a good starting point before you start throwing money at a solution.

 

Roger

[bottle]

Sorry Sven not trying to go off topic but the pattern could have been down to the interconnects, we are just trying to find out why

 

So now we have

 

Battery A – 11.3, 10.7, 10.7, 10.7, 10.6 volts

Battery B – 12.9, 11.8, 10.7, 10.7, 10.4 volts

Battery C – 13.0, 12.8, 12.7, 12.6, 12.5 volts

Battery F – 11.1, 11.1, 11.1, 11.0, 10.8 volts

Battery E – 11.1, 10.8, 10.9, 10.8, 10.8 volts

Battery D – 12.7, 12.7, 12.7, 12.6, 12.4 volts

 

Still an interesting pattern.

 

Are all the batteries the same age?

[Sven...]

>Are all the batteries the same age?

 

Yes they were all bought new last Summer.

[Proper Job]

I would be looking at trying to reduce your consumption as well and/or try to find a mooring with shore power.

 

If you have a hit and miss charging regime, you'll always be fighting to get the lost charge back in to the battery bank..... and in the mean time killing the batteries.

[Arthur Brown]

Remember that batteries only hold (most of) the power that you put into them!

 

You need to read the Victron book- http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=43603 and follow the links!

 

Learn to meter your use of electricity and your recharging of the batteries. Engine powered generators are good for putting in the bulk charge quickly but for the silent absorbtion and float phases Solar PV panels cannot be beaten.

 

I'd strongly suggest that you find some (several) places on your travels where you can do a full charge from the mains through the big charger that you have. A Smartgauge will tell you how little % of power you have left, several meters will measure amp-hours into and out of the battery, all of which will be useful to let you understand where the power is (isn't)!

 

As of now your first aim must be to get the batteries fully charged and keep them so.

 

Maplin and ebay and lots of other vendors can supply panels

[Sven...]

Thanks to all who contributed to this thread. Lots of great ideas have come up... I am currently busy researching it all, ordering new gear, etc.

All the best,

Sven

[pistnbroke]

you are not going to make any sense of this unless you give each battery a full charge 24 hrs on a mains charger and then rest 24 hrs ..voltage should be over 12.5v ..get a hydrometer ..one cell lower than all the others ..scrap.

1150 and will not rise Sulphated ....your load test is a bit light ..couple of headlamp bulbs drawing 10 A would be much better..If they are under 12 months old take them back and whats the make so we can avoid. In future use dont abuse.....Batteries are like women you got to treat them right but then unfortunatly they stick around making replacement with a younger model more difficult .......