Naughty Cal Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Ah but with the BT a very quick blip and the front is instantly moved. Thats pretty responsive. Ah yes. Using the bow thruster to keep the boat in a straight line. We witness many a boater doing this on the Fossditch. It is the source of much amusement for the rest of us who manage just fine with our steering wheels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mykaskin Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) The professionals have got there before me re: tiller versus wheel for larger vessels. The tiller is more responsive because there is no slack in the system as often the case with wheel. You also get a better feeling for the amount of pressure the prop wash is producing to provide the turning moment - that feed back is reduced with wheel. I've steered a hydraulic Z-drive, a chain driven tug, and a couple of others with wheels, and it's not quite the same as a tiller. That having been said I steered a tiller controlled dutch barge and we have to use a rope to control it when the power was on. When manoeuvring the moment was too great to easily steer it. Big boats = wheel, narrowboats especially = tiller By the way - a properly set-up rudder should do the following: There is a slight drift to the right because it's a right handed prop. Cheers, Mike Edited March 22, 2012 by mykaskin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proper Job Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 I think that's true. Tillers tend to swing about and do what they want whereas a good wheel steering setup will hold its course better. However, wheel steering only holds course because any rudder movement is restricted by the steering mechanism. It therefore follows that wheel steering can't be as direct or responsive as a tiller. You can't have it both ways. In deep water I can leave the tiller and go and make a cup of coffee. The boat carrys on in a straight line. I'd say it's more to do with rudder balance and hull shape Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackrose Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) In my posts I've never said that tiller steering was no good, and I've also agreed that tiller steering was more direct, but why do you continue stating that it's more responsive ? ( unless that's another word I misunderstand) I didn't continue to stating it - that was the first time I used the word responsive in this thread. All the tillers I've ever used are more responsive than all the wheels I've used. That's my experience which is why I stated it (once), but I think it's fairly obvious that the fewer linkages or mechanisms that a boat's steering system has, the more direct and thus responsive it will be. That's my opinion - yours may differ and that's your prerogative. Also it's not like casette or PO, if that would be the case you would still see loads of working barges (as they were the ones I was writing about) with tiller steering too. You may have been writing about working barges - I wasn't. Also I wasn't responding to your post, so I don't know why you thought I was? Anyway, in my opinion, for inland waterways boats such as narrowboats, widebeams, etc (the main subject of this forum and original topic of this thread), wheel or tiller stering is a personal choice, just like pump out or cassette. If you do some rough water crossing, your tiller will wack you of the deck if the rudder is hit by a wave, and you have to strap ropes to keep the tiller in position to avoid that you damage yourself trying to steady your tiller, normally no need for that with a wheel. You may well be correct there, but I wasn't suggesting that anyone on a narrowboat, widebeam (or other inland waterways craft), goes to sea in it. In my previous posts I've stated plenty of reasons, you are free to believe, or disbelieve me, and that will change nothing to my opinion, which is based on many years of first hand experience. Peter. And equally you are free to believe, or disbelieve me, and that will change nothing in my opinion, which is based on many years of my own first hand experience. Mike Ah but with the BT a very quick blip and the front is instantly moved. Thats pretty responsive. My BT is pretty responsive too, plus I have a tiller - so even more responsive. I can turn my widebeam around almost within it's own length (even without the BT). Also as a new owner perhaps you haven't yet realised that your BT will become progressively less responsive the faster you go. It's only really of any use for slow, close-quarters handling. In deep water I can leave the tiller and go and make a cup of coffee. The boat carrys on in a straight line. I'd say it's more to do with rudder balance and hull shape I think the balance plate is about right going by what I've read, but I recently installed a R&D coupling which has pushed the prop about an inch back (since this picture was taken). I think it might have made the wandering to starboard effect worse, but it's difficult to tell what's just in your head? Edited March 22, 2012 by blackrose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsmelly Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 In deep water I can leave the tiller and go and make a cup of coffee. The boat carrys on in a straight line. I'd say it's more to do with rudder balance and hull shape Blimey PJ you got in before me. My last narrowboat a 70 foot Steve Hudson had superb swims nearly 14 feet long both ends it also had a massive rudder 15mm thick and as yours much much heavier than a bog standard lightweight boat like say a colecraft or reeves etc. I too could leave the tiller and it hardly deviated at all continuing for a great distance in a straight line, it also went backwards very well indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles Posted March 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Ah yes. Using the bow thruster to keep the boat in a straight line. We witness many a boater doing this on the Fossditch. It is the source of much amusement for the rest of us who manage just fine with our steering wheels At least I got a reaction form someone I have dabbled with it of course as its a new toy, but will be more serious with it in future. Scouts honour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackrose Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 At least I got a reaction form someone I have dabbled with it of course as its a new toy, but will be more serious with it in future. Scouts honour. Out of interest did you install a Noble or Vetus or some other make? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles Posted March 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Out of interest did you install a Noble or Vetus or some other make? Vetus 95kg 12v Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bargemast Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) Hello Mike (blackrose), after reading the posts again, I have to admit that I've accused you wrongly, and beg you to accept my excuses, the other poster was mrsmelly, I think that I got carried away (a bit). I didn't say that tillers are no good, and agree in post #7 that TS is quicker than WS, and explain my reasons for prefering WS. in post #13 more, as an answer on mykaskins's post, in post #16 I agree again on TS. In my rough water crossings, I didn't talk about the sea, which clearly isn't the right place for a (normal) narrowboat, but there are narrowboats that navigate on the bigger rivers where the water can be choppy too, to say the least. It's too bad that I have no barges anymore, as I would have invited you with pleasure for a trip on the French canals, on my WS barges, to make you feel how responsive and precise the steering could be, but I regret that this belongs to the past now. Never mind, I hope you'll be able to sort your slight rudder problems out, and enjoy your cruising. Cheers, Peter. Edited March 23, 2012 by bargemast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tam & Di Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 At least I got a reaction form someone I have dabbled with it of course as its a new toy, but will be more serious with it in future. Scouts honour. Kevin, I suppose one thing that surprises me is that having researched and opted for a Schilling rudder (I'm not really convinced it will be significantly better than a conventional pattern, but I don't want to detract from your obvious happiness) you went for a 12v bow thruster. Once you become adept at steering your new vessel you should find you virtually never use the bt, certainly not for little tweaks to correct steering. But when you do want it, perhaps for reversing over some distance, an electric one, especially 12v, is quite limited. Hydraulics would have been a much better use of your money. Looking at your launch photos, does your thruster tube have any sort of protection bars across? I couldn't make any out in the photo. If not it does leave the back edge of the tube vulnerable, as it projects further than the leading edge due to the shape of the bow. When do you get to France? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles Posted March 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 Kevin, I suppose one thing that surprises me is that having researched and opted for a Schilling rudder (I'm not really convinced it will be significantly better than a conventional pattern, but I don't want to detract from your obvious happiness) you went for a 12v bow thruster. Once you become adept at steering your new vessel you should find you virtually never use the bt, certainly not for little tweaks to correct steering. But when you do want it, perhaps for reversing over some distance, an electric one, especially 12v, is quite limited. Hydraulics would have been a much better use of your money. Looking at your launch photos, does your thruster tube have any sort of protection bars across? I couldn't make any out in the photo. If not it does leave the back edge of the tube vulnerable, as it projects further than the leading edge due to the shape of the bow. When do you get to France? Hello Tam The BT really is only there to save a divorce when mooring up or setting out and Deb is not the strongest of crew and as the tube was already in the hull it seemed rude not to use it. I did consider a hydraulic one but as its not going to be used that much I couldn't justify the infrastructure and expense so the 12v one was the best solution. I haven't covered the end of the BT tubes. I did deliberate on this but decide not to bother to start with. I was going to ask the opinion of the forum on the matter but decided the tread would wander so quickly not real conclusion other than why have a pump out toilet if you know what I mean. As I intend to use it on rivers rather than canals my thinking was the water is deeper and clearer. I looked in a local sea marina and none of the boat there had covered. I accept it might be the wrong decision which will get fixed next time out. As for France the Midi of course, it would be great if the length of the Lot became navigable again as I rather fancy being moored under St cirque la Popie or Cahors. But anywhere really, Deb fancies a stint in Paris. Any suggestions welcome. I will be doing more research as time gets nearer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tam & Di Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 Hello Tam The BT really is only there to save a divorce when mooring up or setting out and Deb is not the strongest of crew and as the tube was already in the hull it seemed rude not to use it. I did consider a hydraulic one but as its not going to be used that much I couldn't justify the infrastructure and expense so the 12v one was the best solution. I haven't covered the end of the BT tubes. I did deliberate on this but decide not to bother to start with. I was going to ask the opinion of the forum on the matter but decided the tread would wander so quickly not real conclusion other than why have a pump out toilet if you know what I mean. As I intend to use it on rivers rather than canals my thinking was the water is deeper and clearer. I looked in a local sea marina and none of the boat there had covered. I accept it might be the wrong decision which will get fixed next time out. As for France the Midi of course, it would be great if the length of the Lot became navigable again as I rather fancy being moored under St cirque la Popie or Cahors. But anywhere really, Deb fancies a stint in Paris. Any suggestions welcome. I will be doing more research as time gets nearer. Unless you are a fan of mosquitoes and crowds of holiday makers for goodness sake don't just rush down there. There are so many really terrific places, even in the Nord - Pas de Calais region, that most boaters dash through with their eyes firmly focussed on sunshine. In some respects rivers are even more likely to have boulders along the edge than canals are, and if you come in at a bad angle it is easy enough to nudge one that is invisible to you. You don't want a mesh of any kind as you would be reducing the water flow to a great extent, but I do think it would be worthwhile welding one or even two ±1" solid bars longitudinally across the tubes to protect the trailing edge. Maybe simply a couple of tabs that the bars would bolt to would serve if the only access to the thruster prop is via the tube itself, and you feel you might need to get to it like that. Paris is quite difficult and expensive for moorings now they closed the ones out on the river at Grenelle. The DBA has a gathering at the beginning of June at La Villette which we are attending as it gives an excellent chance of secure moorings for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackrose Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) I suppose one thing that surprises me is that having researched and opted for a Schilling rudder (I'm not really convinced it will be significantly better than a conventional pattern, but I don't want to detract from your obvious happiness) you went for a 12v bow thruster. Once you become adept at steering your new vessel you should find you virtually never use the bt, certainly not for little tweaks to correct steering. But when you do want it, perhaps for reversing over some distance, an electric one, especially 12v, is quite limited. Hydraulics would have been a much better use of your money. I have to disagree with this. I have had a 12v BT in my boat for the last 6 years and it's been very good. In my experience it's not limited at all, even when reversing over some distance. Since it's only required in short bursts why would it be limited? You may be able to keep your finger on a hydraulic BT, but why would anyone want to do this. As long as the charging setup of a 12v BT is properly thought out it will be fine. Voltage drop on a good 12v BT shouldn't really an issue if the BT batteries are at the bow and the cables from the batteries to the motor are adequate. The cables from the alternator to the batteries aren't so important. Mine are only 16mm2. Conversely, I've actually used a hydraulic BT which was very inefficient because you had to increase the engine revs in order for the hydraulic pump to get anything out of the thruster. That meant having to taking the boat out of gear, increasing engine revs - all just to get the BT to work! Perhaps that particular setup wasn't good, but personally I'd rather have my BT operating completely independently of the engine. Edited March 23, 2012 by blackrose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bizzard Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 Mike. I would cut an angle on the leading edge of the skeg if that were my boat next time you dock or beach her. If that square leading edge ever say hit a really solid piece of masonry or any kind of solidly built in underwater obstruction whilst you're traveling forward it could rip a hole in the stern end or at least tear the welds apart.If angled it would have a chance of riding up and over any solid obstruction. It looks like a length of inverted channel section,as is usual practice these days so would be easy to cut with an angle grinder with cutting disc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLWP Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 In deep water I can leave the tiller and go and make a cup of coffee. The boat carrys on in a straight line. I'd say it's more to do with rudder balance and hull shape Do that on Tawny Owl, and you'd come back to the tiller to find her half way up a telegraph pole Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles Posted March 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 I have to disagree with this. I have had a 12v BT in my boat for the last 6 years and it's been very good. In my experience it's not limited at all, even when reversing over some distance. Since it's only required in short bursts why would it be limited? You may be able to keep your finger on a hydraulic BT, but why would anyone want to do this. As long as the charging setup of a 12v BT is properly thought out it will be fine. Voltage drop on a good 12v BT shouldn't really an issue if the BT batteries are at the bow and the cables from the batteries to the motor are adequate. The cables from the alternator to the batteries aren't so important. Mine are only 16mm2. Conversely, I've actually used a hydraulic BT which was very inefficient because you had to increase the engine revs in order for the hydraulic pump to get anything out of the thruster. That meant having to taking the boat out of gear, increasing engine revs - all just to get the BT to work! Perhaps that particular setup wasn't good, but personally I'd rather have my BT operating completely independently of the engine. I have 220amp of batteries with 32mm/sq charging lines and 400amp cables to the BT that are less than 1m round trip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackrose Posted March 25, 2012 Report Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) Mike. I would cut an angle on the leading edge of the skeg if that were my boat next time you dock or beach her. If that square leading edge ever say hit a really solid piece of masonry or any kind of solidly built in underwater obstruction whilst you're traveling forward it could rip a hole in the stern end or at least tear the welds apart.If angled it would have a chance of riding up and over any solid obstruction. It looks like a length of inverted channel section,as is usual practice these days so would be easy to cut with an angle grinder with cutting disc. Yes thanks, I've been told about this before and will do it next time. Do that on Tawny Owl, and you'd come back to the tiller to find her half way up a telegraph pole Richard I can leave my tiller for about 5 - 10 seconds before the bow starts to wander to starboard. It depends on what sort of speed I'm doing, if I'm going slowly it's a bit longer. Edited March 25, 2012 by blackrose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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