BT & Shilling Rudder

[Biggles]

Well on our maiden voyage I discovered 3 new things.

 

Wheel steering is way better

 

A Shilling type rudder is the dogs danglies

 

A bow thruster is just amasing

 

All 3 together = a totally new way of boat handling.

[Grace and Favour]

Hence the phrase '' ' A Schilling for your thoughts'

[Burgiesburnin]

Well on our maiden voyage I discovered 3 new things.

 

Wheel steering is way better

 

A Shilling type rudder is the dogs danglies

 

A bow thruster is just amasing

 

All 3 together = a totally new way of boat handling.

 

I appreciate what you mean about the rudder and maybe even the bow thruster but there is just something about a tiller as opposed to a wheel that I would not want to change.

[mrsmelly]

I appreciate what you mean about the rudder and maybe even the bow thruster but there is just something about a tiller as opposed to a wheel that I would not want to change.

 

Horses for course, but Tiller steering is definately more precise and accurate.

[Timleech]

Horses for course, but Tiller steering is definately more precise and accurate.

 

Tiller for narrow boats, absolutely definite in my book. Other boats, it all depends....

 

Tim

[mrsmelly]

Tiller for narrow boats, absolutely definite in my book. Other boats, it all depends....

 

Tim

 

Yes, tiller steering on a cruiseliner would be pretty impossible But small stuff like my and others widebeam canal craft are deffo better with tiller. A very experienced old working boatman of the 1930s told me that he had used both wheel and tiller on their fleet of barges ( some quite big ones ) in and out of Hull and Goole docks and coastal and the Trent and he didnt mind which apart from when it rained and some of the wheel positions though not all were under cover

[bargemast]

Horses for course, but Tiller steering is definately more precise and accurate.

 

 

I'm afraid I don't agree with you, maybe because all my barges apart from 2 had wheel steering, only one was tiller, and de 2nd fully hydraulic without a wheel, I can only agree if you say that the action is quicker than a hand operated wheel steering system but I don't see at all why it would be more precise.

 

You should have a look at the smaller canals in France, where locks are often just behind the bend, and see how precise wheel-steered barges get into those locks, with next to nothing to spare.

 

Also if you have to do long days steering a barge, it's highly appreciated that one can sit down comfortably while doing so, which for a pleasure boat is of a much lesser importance of course.

 

Peter.

[Naughty Cal]

I'm afraid I don't agree with you, maybe because all my barges apart from 2 had wheel steering, only one was tiller, and de 2nd fully hydraulic without a wheel, I can only agree if you say that the action is quicker than a hand operated wheel steering system but I don't see at all why it would be more precise.

 

You should have a look at the smaller canals in France, where locks are often just behind the bend, and see how precise wheel-steered barges get into those locks, with next to nothing to spare.

 

Also if you have to do long days steering a barge, it's highly appreciated that one can sit down comfortably while doing so, which for a pleasure boat is of a much lesser importance of course.

 

Peter.

 

Oh i dont know. Give me 8 hours sat at the wheel any day, at any time of the year. 8 hours perched on the back of a NB in the elements just doesnt appeal to me im afraid.

 

Well on our maiden voyage I discovered 3 new things.

Wheel steering is way better

 

A Shilling type rudder is the dogs danglies

 

A bow thruster is just amasing

 

All 3 together = a totally new way of boat handling.

 

I have been telling everyone that for at least 3 years now.....

 

Well on our maiden voyage I discovered 3 new things.

 

Wheel steering is way better

 

A Shilling type rudder is the dogs danglies

 

A bow thruster is just amasing

 

All 3 together = a totally new way of boat handling.

 

Can not agree with that though.

[blackrose]

Well on our maiden voyage I discovered 3 new things.

 

Wheel steering is way better I think that very much depends on how it's been set up. You've obviously done a good job. I've steered a big barge with a wheel and it didn't do very much for about 20 seconds, and then if you hadn't corrected before the bow started to come around you'd left it too late! It was fine on the broad reaches of the Thames but horrible for close quarters handling. It depends what you like better, but even well set up wheel steering will never be quite as direct as a tiller.

 

A Shilling type rudder is the dogs danglies I'll take your word for it.

 

A bow thruster is just amasing You're not allowed to say that on this forum!

 

All 3 together = a totally new way of boat handling.

Edited March 20, 2012 by blackrose

[Biggles]

Oh I forgot to mention :-

 

 

I have the option to put on a tiller. I left a stub on the rudder post and have a bypass valve so I have the best of both worlds.

 

Also don't tell anyone, but I have a secret cassette loo aboard as well.

[bargemast]

Oh I forgot to mention :-

 

 

I have the option to put on a tiller. I left a stub on the rudder post and have a bypass valve so I have the best of both worlds.

 

Also don't tell anyone, but I have a secret cassette loo aboard as well.

 

 

Don't worry, that will be our secret.

 

Peter.

[mykaskin]

Tiller steering for any small canal - there is just too much change in the canal profile to be able to keep ahead with steering. With a tiller you can feel the low water pressure when it gets shallow and compensate before the bow moves across.

 

Being out in the open also gives you full view of whats happening - apart from about 15 foot in front of the bow on Victoria!

 

Mike

[bargemast]

Tiller steering for any small canal - there is just too much change in the canal profile to be able to keep ahead with steering. With a tiller you can feel the low water pressure when it gets shallow and compensate before the bow moves across.

 

Being out in the open also gives you full view of whats happening - apart from about 15 foot in front of the bow on Victoria!

 

Mike

 

 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in my opinion a narrowboat on a small UK canal is comparable with a 38m barge on the smaller French canals, where there's lots of changes in the canal profile too, but there was only one very old barge with tiller steering left until a few years ago.

 

I've done many years on these canals with wheelsteering on the barges I was running, and never felt a tiller would have made my life any easier.

 

From my wheelhouse of my actual boat, I have a full view of whats happening too, and no problems with 15 foot in front of the bow, as I can see everything.

 

Saying that, I love to see the narrowboats, and that's one of the reasons for my visits to the UK.

 

Peter.

[Timleech]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in my opinion a narrowboat on a small UK canal is comparable with a 38m barge on the smaller French canals, where there's lots of changes in the canal profile too, but there was only one very old barge with tiller steering left until a few years ago.

 

I've done many years on these canals with wheelsteering on the barges I was running, and never felt a tiller would have made my life any easier.

 

From my wheelhouse of my actual boat, I have a full view of whats happening too, and no problems with 15 foot in front of the bow, as I can see everything.

 

Saying that, I love to see the narrowboats, and that's one of the reasons for my visits to the UK.

 

Peter.

 

The trouble with tiller steering on anything much bigger than a Narrow Boat is that there tends to be a fair bit of walking about involved, and so it's difficult to have proper protection from the weather.

The great thing about tiller steering is the potential for speed of response as well as feedback through the tiller (if the rudder is not over-balanced), these are real benefits when steering in a restricted channel and into tight-fitting locks. Yes you can do it with a wheel, but it's more work and maybe less instinctive.

I wouldn't contemplate wheel steering for a narrow boat on narrow canals, but for even slightly bigger boats the benefits start to outweigh the disadvantages. We converted the BEECLIFFE from tiller to wheel steering prior to taking it abroad, it was definitely the right thing to do even though there was often a lot of wheel spinning to be done.

 

Tim

Edited March 21, 2012 by Timleech

[blackrose]

Oh I forgot to mention :-

 

 

I have the option to put on a tiller. I left a stub on the rudder post and have a bypass valve so I have the best of both worlds.

 

I think it's a good idea to have the option of a jury rig tiller for wheel steered barges, just in case your steering linkages or hydraulics malfunction. However, for this to be of any use the tiller must be kept handy.

Edited March 21, 2012 by blackrose

[bargemast]

The trouble with tiller steering on anything much bigger than a Narrow Boat is that there tends to be a fair bit of walking about involved, and so it's difficult to have proper protection from the weather.

The great thing about tiller steering is the potential for speed of response as well as feedback through the tiller (if the rudder is not over-balanced), these are real benefits when steering in a restricted channel and into tight-fitting locks. Yes you can do it with a wheel, but it's more work and maybe less instinctive.

I wouldn't contemplate wheel steering for a narrow boat on narrow canals, but for even slightly bigger boats the benefits start to outweigh the disadvantages. We converted the BEECLIFFE from tiller to wheel steering prior to taking it abroad, it was definitely the right thing to do even though there was often a lot of wheel spinning to be done.

 

Tim

 

 

While you were in France on BEECLIFFE, you must have encountered commercial barges on many of the smaller undeep canals, did you have the impression that they were struggeling steering their wheel-steered barges ? You must have seen them getting in the Freycinet locks aswell, with less clearance than you had with BEECLIFFE. On mine I had plenty of feedback, something you often loose when the steering is hydraulic.

 

But I agree that there is nothing simpler, cheaper, and more direct than tiller steering which is perfect for (fat)narrowboats, and smaller barges.

 

In the old days, before the freycinet barges were motorised, and were towed, they had tiller steering too. After they were converted to motorised barges they quickly installed wheel-steering, new barges that left the yards as motorbarges all had wheel steering.

 

Quite different from the UK were they continued much longer with tiller steering on smaller barges, like on the Keels and L & L Shortboats.

 

Peter.

[mrsmelly]

While you were in France on BEECLIFFE, you must have encountered commercial barges on many of the smaller undeep canals, did you have the impression that they were struggeling steering their wheel-steered barges ? You must have seen them getting in the Freycinet locks aswell, with less clearance than you had with BEECLIFFE. On mine I had plenty of feedback, something you often loose when the steering is hydraulic.

 

But I agree that there is nothing simpler, cheaper, and more direct than tiller steering which is perfect for (fat)narrowboats, and smaller barges.

 

In the old days, before the freycinet barges were motorised, and were towed, they had tiller steering too. After they were converted to motorised barges they quickly installed wheel-steering, new barges that left the yards as motorbarges all had wheel steering.

 

Quite different from the UK were they continued much longer with tiller steering on smaller barges, like on the Keels and L & L Shortboats.

 

Peter.

 

The keels my Dad steered as a working boatman in the 1930s mainly had tiller steering but some had wheel including wheel steered ones without wheelhouse to get out of the rain. There are still some around including the brilliant museum in Goole docks. When coming back from Nottingham unloaded if the river was in flood they would on occasion traverse cromwell weir rather than the lock, H and S today no doubt would have kittens. He finished at Goole docks in 1939 and went deep sea just in time for Adolf !!

[blackrose]

My boat steers to starboard if I take my hand off the tiller. Is this normal for a right-handed prop or is it something to do with the rudder? The effect isn't really noticeable on the canals, but now I'm moored on the Thames and can go as fast as I want I find that I actually have to push the tiller quite a lot to keep the boat in a straight line (I'm right handed and sit/stand to the left of the tiller.

 

By the way, I think this tiller vs. wheel argument is a bit poitless. They're both fine. It's a bit like the pump-out vs. cassette argument - IT'S WHAT YOU LIKE!

Edited March 21, 2012 by blackrose

[Biggles]

Already I have noticed I can set a course and leave the wheel for half a minute or so, but on my Tiller NB, 5 seconds was good.

 

I will make a tiller in due course and report back.

 

Funny, I thourght this thread would go down the BT bashing route.

[blackrose]

Already I have noticed I can set a course and leave the wheel for half a minute or so, but on my Tiller NB, 5 seconds was good.

 

I think that's true. Tillers tend to swing about and do what they want whereas a good wheel steering setup will hold its course better. However, wheel steering only holds course because any rudder movement is restricted by the steering mechanism. It therefore follows that wheel steering can't be as direct or responsive as a tiller. You can't have it both ways.

[Old Son]

You can if he quickly changes from his wheel to his tiller

[Tam & Di]

While you were in France on BEECLIFFE, you must have encountered commercial barges on many of the smaller undeep canals, did you have the impression that they were struggeling steering their wheel-steered barges ? You must have seen them getting in the Freycinet locks aswell, with less clearance than you had with BEECLIFFE. On mine I had plenty of feedback, something you often loose when the steering is hydraulic.

 

But I agree that there is nothing simpler, cheaper, and more direct than tiller steering which is perfect for (fat)narrowboats, and smaller barges.

 

In the old days, before the freycinet barges were motorised, and were towed, they had tiller steering too. After they were converted to motorised barges they quickly installed wheel-steering, new barges that left the yards as motorbarges all had wheel steering.

 

Quite different from the UK were they continued much longer with tiller steering on smaller barges, like on the Keels and L & L Shortboats.

 

Peter.

 

One major factor is the power/weight ratio. With towed craft the weight on the rudder, and hence the effort required of the steerer, is only the passage of water as the boat is dragged forward. Steerage is effected by the rudder "interfering" with this flow past the hull. Once you have an engine-driven barge you are using thrust from your propellor to push the boat, rather than pulling it. Your rudder gives steerage by redirecting this thrust. The bigger the engine, the heavier the weight applied to the rudder, and as a tiller bar is ordinarily in a direct action with the rudder there is no gearage to reduce the effort needed to shift it.

 

We were from a tiller background, with freight narrowboats, but had no difficulty when we moved to a wheel when we started with barges (a 35m Boomspitz doing general cargo on the Thames). We bought our current 24m 80dwt "Friesland" out of trade in Dronrijp and returned it to UK to convert it for pleasure use. She had a 40hp Deutz and 3 turns lock-to-lock on the wheel, and was absolutely fine (masses of torque). Wanting an engine with spares more readily available we re-engined her with a 120 hp Gardner 6LW. This was still ok when we moved her from our yard on the bottom of the GU, but when we eventually got to the stage of proper engine trials on the Thames the steerage was much too heavy when we were on deeper water, and we had to reduce the gearage to 16 turns lock-to-lock.

 

Tiller steering is much more direct, but requires too much effort for a heavy craft with powerful engine (or even a light and highly powered cruiser, come to that). You do quickly still get the feedback with a wheel, and you feel it with your feet as much as with your hands on the steering. I've never had hydraulic steering, but I'm sure you'd eventually get it with that as well.

[bargemast]

I think that's true. Tillers tend to swing about and do what they want whereas a good wheel steering setup will hold its course better. However, wheel steering only holds course because any rudder movement is restricted by the steering mechanism. It therefore follows that wheel steering can't be as direct or responsive as a tiller. You can't have it both ways.

 

 

In my posts I've never said that tiller steering was no good, and I've also agreed that tiller steering was more direct, but why do you continue stating that it's more responsive ? ( unless that's another word I misunderstand)

 

Also it's not like casette or PO, if that would be the case you would still see loads of working barges (as they were the ones I was writing about) with tiller steering too.

 

If you do some rough water crossing, your tiller will wack you of the deck if the rudder is hit by a wave, and you have to strap ropes to keep the tiller in position to avoid that you damage yourself trying to steady your tiller, normally no need for that with a wheel.

 

In my previous posts I've stated plenty of reasons, you are free to believe, or disbelieve me, and that will change nothing to my opinion, which is based on many years of first hand experience.

 

Peter.

[Biggles]

I think that's true. Tillers tend to swing about and do what they want whereas a good wheel steering setup will hold its course better. However, wheel steering only holds course because any rudder movement is restricted by the steering mechanism. It therefore follows that wheel steering can't be as direct or responsive as a tiller. You can't have it both ways.

 

Ah but with the BT a very quick blip and the front is instantly moved. Thats pretty responsive.

[Timleech]

I think that's true. Tillers tend to swing about and do what they want whereas a good wheel steering setup will hold its course better. However, wheel steering only holds course because any rudder movement is restricted by the steering mechanism. It therefore follows that wheel steering can't be as direct or responsive as a tiller. You can't have it both ways.

 

Tillers really shouldn't 'swing about' if under power, if they do it's a sign that the rudder is probably over-balanced.

Most boats will have a tendency to prefer one side or the other if left unattended, but in a shallow channel anything can happen!

 

Tim